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BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to John97

Re: Not enough hot water - house has 2 WH connected together.

I have a 10 year old AO Smith 40 gallon electric tank heater and I can tell you right now something is bad wrong with your setup if you can't take more than 5-10 minute shower. Considering you had one tank replaced and it didn't help all that much, the next step in my mind would be figuring out how the tanks are actually plumbed. 80 gallons of capacity should give you plenty of hot water.


toby
Troy Mcclure

join:2001-11-13
Portland, OR
reply to cdru
said by cdru:

said by toby:

With your 80 gallon combined, that still might be an issue unless..... you fill the tub at a slower rate, 25%, give the heater time to run as you are filling it. Simple really, we have to do it too.

Your average bathtub holds 50-60 gallons of water. If you can't get a tub full of hot enough water out of 80 gallons of water heating capacity, something is wrong.

Mine is a large jetted bath that holds more than 80 gallons. Tis why.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Draiman:

My wife refuses to allow me to turn the water heater down to 120. She insists it stay at 140. Given that's an option on the water heater there's no reason not to use it. If a water heater was meant to be run only at 120 they wouldn't make it configurable.

160 degrees is an option also so why not use it? Why heat water just to have to add cold water to temper it down to a tolerable temperature to use?

You only need to heat the water to 140 to kill bacteria and you only need as much hot water as you can use. Heating it more then you need is pointless unless you like throwing money away. It doesn't matter what setting you use you still have to add cold water to temper the water down period end of story.

Example to 102 with 40 gallons:
120 to 102 = 15% or 6 gallons cold water = 46 gallons total
140 to 102 = ~27% or 11 gallons cold water = 51 gallons total

If you want to fill a bathtub with around 50 gallons of water which option would you pick?
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to LazMan
said by LazMan:

said by Draiman:

My wife refuses to allow me to turn the water heater down to 120. She insists it stay at 140. Given that's an option on the water heater there's no reason not to use it. If a water heater was meant to be run only at 120 they wouldn't make it configurable.

Smart wife...

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionellosis

It's an option to stab yourself in the eye with a pencil. I don't suggest doing that, either.

How many people have documentated cases of acquiring it from a water heater? How many do you know? You are more likely to get it from your windshield washer fluid than a water heater.

a ubiquitous aquatic organism that thrives in temperatures between 25 and 45 °C (77 and 113 °F), with an optimum temperature of 35 °C (95 °F)

n 2010 a study by the UK Health Protection Agency reported that 20% of cases may be caused by infected windscreen washer systems
Adding an antibacterial agent to the automobiles' windshield system's reservoir is also recommended

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to John97
Keep your tank at 140 and install a thermostatic mixing valve to get it down to 120 if that's all you want. You should have one of those installed to bring it down to 106 anyways if you are so worried about burns from hot water. Even 120 degree water can cause 3rd degree burns it just takes a few seconds longer.
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Chinabound
Premium
join:2002-12-21
Antioch, IL
kudos:3
reply to Draiman

Re: Not enough hot water - house has 2 WH connected together.

said by Draiman:

Keep your tank at 140 and install a thermostatic mixing valve to get it down to 120 if that's all you want. You should have one of those installed to bring it down to 106 anyways if you are so worried about burns from hot water. Even 120 degree water can cause 3rd degree burns it just takes a few seconds longer.

You are wrong.

"Most adults will suffer third-degree burns if exposed to 150 degree water for two seconds. Burns will also occur with a six-second exposure to 140 degree water or with a thirty second exposure to 130 degree water. Even if the temperature is 120 degrees, a five minute exposure could result in third-degree burns."
»www.accuratebuilding.com/service···aph.html

By the way - learn to use the correct reply button.
Expand your moderator at work

Automate

join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA
reply to Chinabound

Re: Not enough hot water - house has 2 WH connected together.

Third degree burns are very severe. According to Wikipedia they can result in "Scarring, contractures, amputation" »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn

The point is even a 1st or 2nd degree burn is very painful and should be avoided.

The same site you quotes says
"Each year, approximately 3,800 injuries and 34 deaths occur in the home due to scalding from excessively hot tap water. The majority of these accidents involve the elderly and children under the age of five."

and

"The CPSC notes that a thermostat setting of 120 degrees Fahrenheit (49 degrees Celsius) may be necessary for residential water heaters to reduce or eliminate the risk of most tap water scald injuries. Consumers should consider lowering the thermostat to the lowest settings that will satisfy hot water needs for all clothing and dish washing machines."
Expand your moderator at work


Chinabound
Premium
join:2002-12-21
Antioch, IL
kudos:3
reply to Automate

Re: Not enough hot water - house has 2 WH connected together.

said by Automate:

"The CPSC notes that a thermostat setting of 120 degrees Fahrenheit (49 degrees Celsius) may be necessary for residential water heaters to reduce or eliminate the risk of most tap water scald injuries.

Reduce or eliminate. That contradicts what the all-knowing Xcal said, which was it would cause third degree burns "a few seconds later".

I was burned in the Navy back in 1978. Third degree, on my leg. Wanna see it?
Expand your moderator at work

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Automate

Re: Not enough hot water - house has 2 WH connected together.

said by Automate:

"Consumers should consider lowering the thermostat to the lowest settings that will satisfy hot water needs for all clothing and dish washing machines."

For my house, that's 135 degrees.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT

1 recommendation

reply to John97
Oddly enough people in Europe, Australia etc don't get scalded even with required hot water tank temperatures of 60C+ (140F) and hot water temperature at tap of 50C+ (122F).
Maybe they have learned to follow their instinct and not hold their hands in water if it's burning???


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by cowboyro:

Oddly enough people in Europe, Australia etc don't get scalded even with required hot water tank temperatures of 60C+ (140F) and hot water temperature at tap of 50C+ (122F).
Maybe they have learned to follow their instinct and not hold their hands in water if it's burning???

Maybe the people in Europe would be better if they would invest in some pipe insulation. To have to run 160 degrees to get 122 at the tap is a colossal waste of energy.

I have mine set at 122 and have 119.9 at the closest tap and 115.4 at the sink that is farthest away.

Not worried about scalding but wasting energy and eliminating the need to add cold water in great quantities to temper it enough to use. 120 works just fine and is consistent with the CDC recommendations.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:

Oddly enough people in Europe, Australia etc don't get scalded even with required hot water tank temperatures of 60C+ (140F) and hot water temperature at tap of 50C+ (122F).
Maybe they have learned to follow their instinct and not hold their hands in water if it's burning???

if the faucet is steaming like a kettle people in those countries are smart enough to know not to shove their hand under it. In the US they figure hey there is a million in this from the water heater maker.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by Kearnstd:

said by cowboyro:

Oddly enough people in Europe, Australia etc don't get scalded even with required hot water tank temperatures of 60C+ (140F) and hot water temperature at tap of 50C+ (122F).
Maybe they have learned to follow their instinct and not hold their hands in water if it's burning???

if the faucet is steaming like a kettle people in those countries are smart enough to know not to shove their hand under it. In the US they figure hey there is a million in this from the water heater maker.

No here in the U.S. citizens have become such dependent sheeple they need the government to watch over them to keep from harming themselves.


John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bright House
·ooma
reply to John97
Got an update.

Found out the two heaters are not connected together after all, at least not directly. They are in fact set up in a zoned configuration as I had initially suspected when I first bought the house and moved in.

The extra piping was for a recirculator system that pumped the water from both water heaters through the heat pumps outside to reclaim the heat. This system was apparently partially dismantled and abandoned when the heat pumps were replaced a few years before I bought the house. The pipes that went to the heat pumps were cut and capped.

The shutoff valves for the extra piping are now turned off. And, I seem to have sufficient hot water. So, it seems that what was left of this system was allowing cold water to be backfed into the hot water piping.

Fingers-crossed, I think I'm in good shape now.
--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

120 works just fine and is consistent with the CDC recommendations.

120F is just about perfect for the growth of dangerous and potentially lethal bacteria.
8000-18000 people get hospitalized with Legionellosis each year, significantly more cases go unnoticed or are labeled as pneumonia. Prevention is as simple as increasing the water temperature...

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

colossal waste of energy.

Ummm... No.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
said by Bob4:

said by Jack_in_VA:

colossal waste of energy.

Ummm... No.

Half-decent heaters only have 1-2% standby losses to start with. You only reduce a fraction of that by lowering the temperature.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
said by cowboyro:

said by Bob4:

said by Jack_in_VA:

colossal waste of energy.

Ummm... No.

Half-decent heaters only have 1-2% standby losses to start with. You only reduce a fraction of that by lowering the temperature.

And for those who don't realize it: The hotter the hot water is, the less of it you use.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit
reply to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:

said by Jack_in_VA:

120 works just fine and is consistent with the CDC recommendations.

120F is just about perfect for the growth of dangerous and potentially lethal bacteria.
8000-18000 people get hospitalized with Legionellosis each year, significantly more cases go unnoticed or are labeled as pneumonia. Prevention is as simple as increasing the water temperature...

Have you ever considered going to work for the CDC? You seem to be able to contradict their recommendations. Evidently you have information they aren't privy to.

»www.vdh.state.va.us/epidemiology···osis.htm

Ummm Ligionellosis is classified as pneumonia.

quote:
There are two forms of the disease, the most serious of which may cause pneumonia.
quote:
Prevention of legionellosis is based upon proper maintenance of heating, cooling and plumbing systems. Commercial cooling towers should be drained when not in use and cleaned periodically to remove scale and sediment. Hot water tanks should be maintained at 122oF. Persons with hot tubs and whirlpool baths should take special care to keep them clean and free of Legionella bacteria.


cowspotter

join:2000-09-11
Ashburn, VA
kudos:2


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit
reply to Bob4
said by Bob4:

said by Jack_in_VA:

colossal waste of energy.

Ummm... No.

How much does turning down the temperature save you? Turning down the temperature 10 degrees Fahrenheit on your hot water heater saves 3 to 5 percent on energy costs, so a drop from 140 F to 120 F saves you 6 to 10 percent.

Another concern is that insufficiently hot water can cause bacterial growth in a typical water heater. From the »www.energysavers.gov website

In other words, unless you have a suppressed immune system, it’s more dangerous to have your water temperature at 140 degrees than 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

While there is a very slight risk of promoting legionellae bacteria when hot water tanks are maintained at 120 degrees, this level is still considered safe for the majority of the population. If you have a suppressed immune system or chronic respiratory disease, you may consider keeping your hot water tank at 140 degrees. However, this high temperature significantly increases the risk of scalding. To minimize this risk, you can install mixing valves or other temperature-regulating devices on any taps used for washing or bathing.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
said by Jack_in_VA:

How much does turning down the temperature save you? Turning down the temperature 10 degrees Fahrenheit on your hot water heater saves 3 to 5 percent on energy costs, so a drop from 140 F to 120 F saves you 6 to 10 percent.

I'm curios how you can reach 6-10% savings when you have 1-2% losses. Reducing from 140 to 120 with 65 ambient will save about 25% of those 1-2% - so 0.5% at best.
said by Jack_in_VA:

Another concern is that insufficiently hot water can cause bacterial growth in a typical water heater. From the »www.energysavers.gov website

In other words, unless you have a suppressed immune system, it’s more dangerous to have your water temperature at 140 degrees than 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

Actually it's the other way around. 120F is dangerous, 140 is not. That's why building codes around the world require keeping the water at above 140F.

said by Jack_in_VA:

While there is a very slight risk of promoting legionellae bacteria when hot water tanks are maintained at 120 degrees, this level is still considered safe for the majority of the population.

When you have 10,000 people in the hospital each year the level is far from being safe.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
There's no use in trying to post documented information from the experts in the field and health departments when you insist on disputing it and injecting your own beliefs.

I'm not going to continue with this topic.



John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bright House
·ooma
reply to John97
FWIW, I have the bottoms set to 140 and the tops set to 130 on both water heaters.

I just took a nice long shower tonight and had no hot water supply issues.
--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to Jack_in_VA
It's deja-vu all over again.