 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC |
Reenforcing floor joists vs. thicker subfloorThis is my house's original subfloor, viewed from the basement. When my son runs all over the place, it shakes the whole floor. Is this something that a thick subfloor (like 1" plywood/osb) would diminish? Or is this something that would require extra strenghtening of the floor joists? The reason I ask is because right now I have access to the floor joists from the basement, but that basement is in the process of being finished. However the wood floor is original from 1964 (pine wood) and it's been refinished to its last layer. So it will have to be changed in a couple of years as well. Hence I have two options equally convenient. Floor joists are 2x8s 16" on center. I see no crack or flaws in the joists, but they might have shrunk over the decades to leave a gap from subfloor causing the vibrations. The original subfloor looks like 1x6 placed diagonally (see picture above) |
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cowboyro
Premium Member
2012-Dec-5 9:32 am
Thicker subfloor won't help. The joists are too thin and too long. |
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 ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA |
to alkizmo
How bad is, "shakes the whole floor" really? I have a house built in 1958 and the floor joist span is only 13 feet before they are supported in the middle by a cinder block wall. When my daughter runs around things rattle on some of the furniture in the room however, it is far from shaking the whole floor.
My floor joists are 2x8's with the same type of sub-floor as yours and also pine hardwood floors. To me it is typical of that type of floor from that era and is normal. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC |
The shaking is mostly very annoying as I am a calm person  But I think KIDS are the ones who are annoying. I think it doesn't help that my floor is very old. You're right about the span. The most annoying section (under living room) is only 12' span. Anyway, once my basement is finished, the kids will run in THERE. |
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ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA |
ropeguru
Premium Member
2012-Dec-5 10:06 am
said by alkizmo:The shaking is mostly very annoying as I am a calm person
But I think KIDS are the ones who are annoying.
I think it doesn't help that my floor is very old.
You're right about the span. The most annoying section (under living room) is only 12' span.
Anyway, once my basement is finished, the kids will run in THERE.
Good plan. Mine will be the same once I get my basement finished. I think I am going to have to go with the DriCore as I can purchase from Home Depot and I just got a coupon in the mail yesterday for all single receipt purchases for over $1699 I get 24 months no interest if paid off withing that time frame. That comes to about $70 a month and we have used this before and it worked great for us. DriCore may be a little more expensive but not having to put in all those tapcons with the plywood and Delta-FL it may be worth it. Now to decide if I want to do framing first or build on top of the dricore. I am thinking the latter so is there is a minor leak, the bottom plate is protected. |
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 LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA |
LazMan
Premium Member
2012-Dec-5 10:39 am
said by ropeguru:DriCore may be a little more expensive but not having to put in all those tapcons with the plywood and Delta-FL it may be worth it. Now to decide if I want to do framing first or build on top of the dricore. I am thinking the latter so is there is a minor leak, the bottom plate is protected.
Just finished a couple hundred square feet in my basement... I did wall to wall dricore first, then built partition walls on-top. Worked out very well. The exterior walls were already framed and insulated, so I ran the dricore just shy of the sill plates. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC |
to ropeguru
Don't go Dricore. They're convenient and easy, but for the same money you can get a better result. Here's my basement's floor's layers (From bottom to top) - Landscape fabric (To avoid clicky noise of the material over it) - DeltaMS (bumpy membrane wrap like Platon, but higher PSI capacity). That can make clicky noises over the concrete without the landscape fabric.  - 1.5" XPS boards - 3/4" plywood boards - Vinyl fake wood So you'll have air movement underneath due to the deltams (Same idea with Dricore), but you'll also have added insulation from the 1.5" XPS (unlike dricore) and 3/4 real plywood instead of 1/2" OSB from dricore. Cost comparison: DeltaMS is 150$ for a roll of 6.6 x 65.6, so that's 433 sqft. You'll need 13 to 14 panels of 8x4 to cover that area, let's be pessimist and go 14 panels. 14 x 35$ of 1.5" XPS 14 x 25$ of 3/4 plywood 1 x 150$ DeltaMS ----------------------- 990$ for 433 sqft Dircore is about 7$ for 4 sqft, so 759$ for the same space. So you pay 231$ more, but you have that 1.5" of XPS in there. If you remove the 1.5" of XPS, you get 500$ for the project vs 759$ for dricore (and then you'd have identical results, if not even better). However it requires tapcons, while Dricore can just "lay" there. For me, anchoring the subfloor is a bonus. |
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ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA |
ropeguru
Premium Member
2012-Dec-5 10:47 am
Part of my issue is financing. I cannot afford the lump sum up front. Since I can buy the DriCore from Home Depot, I can stretch out the payment for up to 24 months.
I do have one question though. If you are anchoring the plywood to the concrete with tapcons, that should pull things down tight. Why would you get clicking from the DeltaMS? |
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LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA |
to alkizmo
I looked at doing platon and plywood/OSB... With my local material costs, it was only about a 5-10% premium to go with Dricore; and the ease of install was worth it... |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
2 edits |
said by ropeguru:Part of my issue is financing. I cannot afford the lump sum up front. Since I can buy the DriCore from Home Depot, I can stretch out the payment for up to 24 months. The materials I listed are available at Home Depot as well. Well, DeltaMS might be trickier, but Platon should be available as a substitute (but less PSI capacity). said by ropeguru:I do have one question though. If you are anchoring the plywood to the concrete with tapcons, that should pull things down tight. Why would you get clicking from the DeltaMS? You never know where the concrete slab might be uneven and still leave a gap. Also over the years, the plywood and XPS might compress a bit, making things a little bit loose. The landscape fabric was only 15$, so I figured it's a no brainer. said by LazMan:I looked at doing platon and plywood/OSB... With my local material costs, it was only about a 5-10% premium to go with Dricore; and the ease of install was worth it...
I'm surprised, you either pay dirt cheap for Dricore, or too much for platon+plywood. My calculation above shows that it's 259$ cheaper to go Platon/Delta + plywood (if you don't add XPS). If you included XPS in your calculation, then the premium is all about the added insulation of the XPS. Warm floor = yay. It might be harder to install, but only slightly. Don't forget that each 4x8 is equal to 8 dricore panels. It's 8 tapcons per 4x8, which is a lot, ya but the solidness of the installation is uncomparable. I have more faith on the floor's stability when it's a single piece 4x8 section with 8 tapcons, compared to 8 pieces of 2x2 that's just dropped there. I can actually use my subfloor before the final floor is installed. |
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ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA |
ropeguru
Premium Member
2012-Dec-5 11:27 am
That might be the case in Canada, but here in the States, I do not show platon nor the Delta products available from Home Depot. The Delta-FL is available via special order from Lowes though. But I do not have the same deal nor a credit card from Lowes. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC |
That's a shame.
Don't forget you can still buy as much as possible from HD and just pay up front on the Delta at Lowes. |
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ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA |
to alkizmo
I am not seeing the prices you are showing. I would use the Delta-FL as that is what it was designed for and Delta-MS was not designed for interior floor space.
I am getting the following breakdown:
Dricore:
130 x 6.48 = $842.40
Delta-FL:
2 rolls 4' 9" by 68' 6" x 193.52 = 387.04
2 rolls tape x 13.95 = 27.90
20 23/32 T&G sub floor x 29.47 = 589.40
20 sheets XPS = 319.68
Tapcons = 50
Total $1374
That is over a $500 difference. I cannot get the cost down as you provided. I think a good carpet padding then carpet ofr most areas will help a lot with the warmth factor too. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC |
You can use DeltaMS. There is a huge thread on redflagforums (canadian forum) regarding using DeltaFL vs. MS, some people even called the manufacturer, to be told that the only difference between the two is that the FL uses new plastic while the MS uses recycled plastic. So there's a chance of a plastic smell on the MS. Personally I didn't smell anything on the MS i bought.
So that's 80$ difference right there. Also with the MS, you can just buy one roll and buy a small roll of FL to fill the last 100 sqft needed for about 70$. So instead of 2x 193.52$, you have 1 x 150$ + 70$ = 220$ vs your 387$, so 167$ reduction.
The tape is a bonus. You're sealing seams, seams that also exist with dricore (and that's a lot more seams).
The T&G, you seem to be taking the price of plywood and not OSB. Dricore is OSB. If you're on a budget, 8x4s 23/32 OSB is 20.39$. That's a 181.60$ reduction
XPS is an optional bonus that costs a lot and isn't comparable to the cost of the dricore. But already, with the reductions I mentionned, you're only at 151$ more WITH the XPS. Without XPS, you'd be at 168$ CHEAPER than Dricore. |
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 robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX |
to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:You never know where the concrete slab might be uneven and still leave a gap. Also over the years, the plywood and XPS might compress a bit, making things a little bit loose.
The landscape fabric was only 15$, so I figured it's a no brainer.
How exactly does the landscape fabric help with this? |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC |
to robbin
Re: Reenforcing floor joists vs. thicker subfloorsaid by robbin:How exactly does the landscape fabric help with this? As you can see in the picture of the DeltaMS, it's dimpled plastic. Once/if it gets a little bit loose and starts moving up and down when you walk over the floor, it would hit the concrete slab and do click-clack noises. The landscape fabric acts as padding so there isn't that noise. This thread is what inspired me to do this sort of subflooring (with landscape fabric). » forums.redflagdeals.com/ ··· -610572/It's also where they discuss using DeltaMS instead of DeltaFL. It's long but interesting. |
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to alkizmo
I have the same subfloor as pictured. When we redid the kitchen/den last year with plans to put down 3/4" hardwood flooring, the covering over the boards was deemed not good enough as a base for the hardwood flooring we planned. So the covering over the subfloor was pulled up and replaced with 3/4" tongue-in-groove OSB and secured with ring shank nails. Very solid. No squeaks anywhere. Pics 4 and 5 in this thread show the material if interested. (Pic 4 shows show they had to add some luann beneath the OSB to level that particular area.) » Pics of our major kitchen/den remodelAttacking the problem described from below in the basement does not seem to be the right plan. But then again, that's why I love the discussions here so I can learn.  I will add that my floor joists do have "X" reinforcement between the joists (two boards to make an "X" pattern) which I tought was to prevent racking. That was there all along. |
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