Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to jaykaykay
Re: "They are just storing it" So, Google is lying about requests because requests are not occurring? ISPs are not approached...all mail to and from USA citizens is being intercepted by MIM attack?
"RT: You mean it’s being collected in bulk without even requesting providers?
WB: Yes.
RT: Then what about Google, you know, releasing this biannual transparency report and saying that the government’s demands for personal data is at an all-time high and for all of those requesting the US, Google says they complied with the government’s demands 90 percent of the time. But they are still saying that they are making the request, it’s not like it’s all being funneled into that storage. What do you say to that?
WB: I would assume that it’s just simply another source for the same data they are already collecting. My line is in declarations in a court about the 18-T facility in San Francisco, that documented the NSA room inside that AST&T facility, where they had Naris devices to collect data off the fiber optic lines inside the United States. So, that’s kind of a powerful device, that would collect everything it was being sent. It could collect on the order over of 100 billion 1,000-character emails a day. One device."
So, it is a MIM attack on every citizen's right to privacy? How do we combat this? (Why argue about what source he gave the interview to when what is important is how do we combat this)? Is our only resource to just stop using email?
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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 StuartMWWho Is John Galt?Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2
 ·CenturyLink
| said by Mele20:So, it is a MIM attack on every citizen's right to privacy?
Well technically it's not a MIM "attack". It's just wholesale monitoring.
The NSA isn't going to stop by itself. My bet is that they were given tacit approval after 9/11. In theory Congress has oversight but good luck having them do anything.
Is our only resource to just stop using email?
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow! |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | Why is it not a MIM attack? NSA is intercepting email midstream when I didn't give permission for them to do this.
As for landlines, you are claiming that NSA is recording and saving every conversation made on a landline by every person in the USA? Cell phones, sure, they are by nature open and public and only fools (IMO) use them. I suppose NSA intercepts all snail mail and reads it, records it, and then passes it on?
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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StuartMWWho Is John Galt?Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2 Reviews:
·CenturyLink
| said by Mele20:NSA is intercepting email midstream when I didn't give permission for them to do this.
You keep referring to email. Every single bit (0/1) of data flowing between you and the internet is being captured. All of it. I don't know how to make that any clearer.
As for landlines, you are claiming that NSA is recording and saving every conversation made on a landline by every person in the USA?
quote:
I suppose NSA intercepts all snail mail and reads it, records it, and then passes it on?
I doubt that. It would be very difficult to automatize that process. Capturing digital/electronic data is both trivial and easily automatized.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow! |
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 BlackbirdBuilt for SpeedPremium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
·Frontier Communi..
| reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:Why is it not a MIM attack? NSA is intercepting email midstream when I didn't give permission for them to do this.
As for landlines, you are claiming that NSA is recording and saving every conversation made on a landline by every person in the USA? Cell phones, sure, they are by nature open and public and only fools (IMO) use them. ... What StuartMW  just wrote! There's nothing magic about copper wire. It can be tapped, just as fibre, microwave, or satellite linkage, or switching stations can be tapped. And whether one calls it MIM or whatever, it boils down to tapping - something that once upon a time required warrants, and probably "legally" still does. Which is the core problem... the "laws be damned" attitude held by certain government officials and agencies sworn to uphold law and the Constitution.
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville |
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StuartMWWho Is John Galt?Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2 Reviews:
·CenturyLink
| said by Blackbird:There's nothing magic about copper wire. No there's not. In the old days phones were tapped by connecting to the copper wire in the CO (central office). Since all the data flows digitally and over networks these days there's no need to do that anymore. The days of "Mission Impossible" are gone.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow! |
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| reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:Why is it not a MIM attack? NSA is intercepting email midstream when I didn't give permission for them to do this.
As for landlines, you are claiming that NSA is recording and saving every conversation made on a landline by every person in the USA? Cell phones, sure, they are by nature open and public and only fools (IMO) use them. I suppose NSA intercepts all snail mail and reads it, records it, and then passes it on?
I can bug a landline with parts from radioshack, they are far more "open" than a cellphone that now use digital and packetized transmission methods. However none of that matters for an entity like the NSA who can simply backdoor itself onto the trucklines at the central offices, so cell and landline calls are each easily monitored. |
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StuartMWWho Is John Galt?Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2 Reviews:
·CenturyLink
1 edit | reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:Cell phones, sure, they are by nature open and public...
BTW you're correct that cell phones are worse than landlines. Not only can voice calls be intercepted but in addition so can
• Texts.
• Internet (with smartphones).
• Your physical location (GPS or cell tower pinging).
FYI I have a "dumb" cell phone instead of a landline. However I don't text nor do I use it for internet access. It can be located by tower pinging (no GPS) but I don't often take it far from home and in fact sometimes deliberately leave it behind. If Bob wants to monitor my every move he'll have to put a GPS tracker on my vehicle and/or send some goons to physically follow me.
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 IanPremium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:1 | reply to jaykaykay
Maybe off-topic, but why is it that more people don't encrypt e-mail? The technology to do so has been free and available for years. |
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OZOPremium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2 | Many are careless and don't know (or often, don't want to know) how open communications may be misused against them. Others are brainwashed with idea - "good citizen has nothing to hide". Many scared about 3 letter agencies, that may think (widely spread perception and actually is a FUD) that if mails are closed for everyone's eyes - there is a crime and it'll bring additional attention to it. Lot of people simply lazy and / or incapable to set required environment (PKI, encryption programs, etc) to send mails in envelops. And one of the most important causes in this environment - businesses make money on it. Corporations, making huge profits on tracking people, offer simplified ways for communications. Of course, they're offered as "free" and, of course, widely opened to their own analysis. There are many other reasons as well...
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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 JuggernautIrreverent or irrelevant?Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2 | reply to Ian
said by Ian:Maybe off-topic, but why is it that more people don't encrypt e-mail? The technology to do so has been free and available for years. Most email is pretty boring, I'd think. Using encryption would make you a 'person of interest'.
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 ashrc4Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia | reply to Ian
said by Ian:Maybe off-topic, but why is it that more people don't encrypt e-mail? The technology to do so has been free and available for years.
Because most sheeple, sorry people use things like outlook for E-mail and just love the new "privacy" nightmares, sorry love the new features.
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IanPremium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to Juggernaut
said by Juggernaut:said by Ian:Maybe off-topic, but why is it that more people don't encrypt e-mail? The technology to do so has been free and available for years. Most email is pretty boring, I'd think. Using encryption would make you a 'person of interest'. Perhaps. But I think then a critical mass needs to be achieved. If more people used it, the less "interesting" each becomes. And pretty soon, if commonplace, it's the proverbial hunting needles in a stack of needles. Pointless to be collecting people's email at all if 50% of personal emails or so are encrypted.
Was anyone a "person of interest" if they chose to obscure letter contents with an envelope instead of writing a postcard?
Granted encryption is a bit more. Someone could always steam open an envelope, and that's not so easy with encryption.
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“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong |
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IanPremium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to ashrc4
said by ashrc4:Because most sheeple, sorry people use things like outlook for E-mail and just love the new "privacy" nightmares, sorry love the new features.
I'm somewhat surprised (ok not really) that there isn't a native encryption option for the large web based systems. As a practical matter, I can send and receive encrypted e-mail with both gmail and outlook.com accounts. Just need to use a client like Thunderbird with Enigmail to do so. I can only wonder what their ad clients must think of the text. Perhaps forward it to the NSA and CSE for review. Hope they have fun with them. I don't know.
I wonder if anyone will come out with a strong encryption open-source system for Android phones. Would be interesting if encrypted texts and voice could be pervasive. Likely wouldn't be popular with the Government and police agencies at all....
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“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong |
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ashrc4Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia | Their intent is to view all messages for targeted content and encryption posses a HUGE PROBLEM.
All encryption should be viewed as viewable to these agencies.....unfortunately.
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Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT! |
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 caffeinatorComing soon to a cup near you..Premium
join:2005-01-16
WA, USA
kudos:4
·CenturyLink
| reply to Ian
said by Ian:Maybe off-topic, but why is it that more people don't encrypt e-mail? The technology to do so has been free and available for years.
Yup, I remember the ruckus Zimmerman had with PGP back in the 1990's. But, the fact is that while I know how encrypt IM and email, not a single person that I correspond regularly with does nor do they want to bother with it. Public keys and the like are "computer stuff" that they don't want to deal with.
Most users barely know how to turn on a computer, much less anything else. I think we forget this is a technical forum; we're the 1% of computer users. 
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ashrc4Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia
2 edits | Some public keys are bogus.
When signing up for Axe-crypt it offers you the option to have it's main keys stored in-house so even if you use a public key, regardless of the sophistication it can still be recovered.
The E-mails will also be stored, so future recovery is still on the cards regardless.
A change in privacy policy here, a change in gov. regulations there and all keys could become mandatory sooner or later.
Encryption is that big a thorn for Goverments. |
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StuartMWWho Is John Galt?Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2 Reviews:
·CenturyLink
| reply to jaykaykay
I know I'm repeating myself but it seems some don't, or don't want to, get the point of this thread.
The point is that everything is being monitored. Your emails, tweets, posts and even just the stuff you read. In short if it goes through your router it is captured and stored.
If this bothers you there's a number of choices.
• Have no internet connection at all. None.
• Use a proxy service to encrypt/hide everything between you and the internet.
• Use https and other encrypted protocols where possible. (e.g. »encrypted.google.com, »secure.dslreports.com).
Or you can just use the OmagicQ theory above and do what just about everyone else does (i.e. nothing).
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BlackbirdBuilt for SpeedPremium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
| reply to caffeinator
said by caffeinator:said by Ian:Maybe off-topic, but why is it that more people don't encrypt e-mail? The technology to do so has been free and available for years.
Yup, I remember the ruckus Zimmerman had with PGP back in the 1990's. But, the fact is that while I know how encrypt IM and email, not a single person that I correspond regularly with does nor do they want to bother with it. Public keys and the like are "computer stuff" that they don't want to deal with. Most users barely know how to turn on a computer, much less anything else. I think we forget this is a technical forum; we're the 1% of computer users. +1! I recall it well. And the reality I encountered then was the same as you: people I corresponded with either didn't want to bother with good encryption, or else couldn't get it to work on their systems for any length of time (either it began crashing, failed to survive OS or apps upgrades, etc, etc).
I also realized that, in such an atmosphere, conventional encryption sticks out like a sore thumb. At one point, I argued with others that if everyone encrypted everything, that would no longer be true... and anyone trying to zero-in on encrypted messages would drown in the ocean of enciphered messages. But, alas, that's simply not going to happen - at least in my lifetime.
Finally, I came to see it much as StuartMW views it in his last post above. With the exception that if one embeds the encrypted plaintext steganographically into a message, it can possibly escape being detected as encrypted. Unfortunately, getting other users to deal with that kind of doubly-encrypted message is far harder than the fiasco of trying to get them to use PgP back in the 90's.
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville |
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| reply to OZO
said by OZO:Country is in a deep recession and budget deficit is soaring, but we go to China to borrow money just to spy on our own citizens... The obsession with all seeing eye in the US becomes not only dangerous, but financially unsustainable now...  And that's kind of ironic, as the Chinese have shown time and again they're willing to spy on us for free... |
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