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Cheese
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join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
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reply to pandora

Re: What happend to 2.88MB Floppy Disk's

According to the "Care and Handling Guide for the Preservation of CDs and DVDs - A joint Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR) and NIST project" guide,

"Among the manufacturers that have done testing, there is consensus that, under recommended storage conditions, CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD+R discs should have a life expectancy of 100 to 200 years or more; CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM discs should have a life expectancy of 25 years or more. Little information is available for CD-ROM and DVD-ROM discs (including audio and video), resulting in an increased level of uncertainty for their life expectancy. Expectations vary from 20 to 100 years for these discs.

"Few, if any, life expectancy reports for these discs have been published
by independent laboratories. An accelerated aging study at NIST estimated the life expectancy of one type of DVD-R for authoring disc to be 30 years if stored at 25°C (77°F) and 50% relative humidity. This testing for R discs is in the preliminary stages, and much more needs to be done."


pandora
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reply to berserken

THAT is interesting, thanks. For long term storage, any user, particularly companies, hospitals or government has to think not only about the media itself, and media storage (not too hot, not too cold, etc) but also the viability of long term devices to read media.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"



urbanriot
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I store my archival discs vertically, as recommended, in the appropriate environmental conditions and my archived discs from the 90's are starting to degrade. Most of my discs from 1994, created with Kodak 'lifetime' discs, are exhibiting media read errors.

Many of my no-name discs from the late 90's and early 00's are a complete write-off (but I knew that buying them at the time).

I've had good luck with Verbatim DVD+R's standing the (limited) test of time I've been using them, since the mid 00's.


pandora
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2 edits
reply to Cheese

Hi,
As best I can determine, the 100 and 200 year life expectancy of CD and DVD media report by NIST was published as NIST Special Publication 500-263 a PDF summary is online here - »www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cf···d=150372

There were a half dozen methodologies used to produce rapid aging, and about 10 test methodologies to test the consequence of aging. The project detail indicates all work stopped after 2006, and the results were not only incomplete but there were breakdowns of equipment and many assumptions made about the failure and its effect on the analysis being performed.

IMO the report is incomplete, testing stopped in 2006, and was never resumed. Several testing machines broke, how that affected testing wasn't investigated. Looking at the NIST spreadsheet data, there seem more questions than answers regarding the production of the report or why testing was never finished (which is unanswered to the best of my searching).

Media longevity tests by the optical media industry (and at least one of the NIST tests) seem to assume temperature as the only stress on media over time. The assumption also is made that temperature range can be controlled over the 100 to 200 year period within a few degrees. The 200 year mark can be hit using BLock Error Rate (BLER) test. Other tests produce different results. Even the 2006 NIST tests indicated very wide / unpredictable variation for the limited testing that was in progress before the plug was pulled on the project.

The international standards organization (ISO) has defined two methods of determining longevity of CD and DVD media. They are ISO 18921:2000 for CD-ROM media and ISO 18927:2002 for CD-R media.

The latter standard involves a 2 year test. How often does the same media, stay on the market, unmodified for 2 years? Production changes occur regularly. A sku may remain constant, but the dye, manufacturing process, and substrate materials may all change a lot over 2 years. At time of purchase without testing, we don't really have a "good" guess as to longevity of any particular media. We hope it'll last a long time, but we can't be certain.

A organization called Optical Disc Archive Test Committee (»www.odat.org ) was created to assess optical data longevity. They discuss the problems introduced in this thread in considerable detail. The problem for current optical, is not very different from the problem with 2.88 MB floppy technology.

The technology moves, and changes, not only the media, but the interfaces and write / read technology. Compatibility with legacy technology is not guaranteed or in many cases even practical.

Another issue brought up by a poster, regarding estimated longevity of data on media at 100 or 200 years, is the difference between a backup and an archive.

A backup, is for intermediate retrieval of something lost. An archive is for long term storage of data. Sarbanes-Oxley requires data be archived for 20 years, GLBA (aka the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act) requires 10 years, the Patriot Act requires an archive for 20 years, HIPAA requires a 10 year archive.

Finally, I wind up at »www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/in···faq.html this is the part of our government which defines appropriate practices for data archives.

From that site I see the following -

CD/DVD experiential life expectancy is 2 to 5 years even though published life expectancies are often cited as 10 years, 25 years, or longer. However, a variety of factors discussed in the sources cited in FAQ 15, below, may result in a much shorter life span for CDs/DVDs. Life expectancies are statistically based; any specific medium may experience a critical failure before its life expectancy is reached. Additionally, the quality of your storage environment may increase or decrease the life expectancy of the media. We recommend testing your media at least every two years to assure your records are still readable.

Every 2 to 5 years (the limit determined by archive.gov), data must be migrated from old CD or DVD media to new and verified, to be within the definition the government archives suggests for best practices. These standards are likely important to any company or agency that may experience litigation and be required to produce digitally archived data.

This was an interesting thread. It brought up a number of issues to think about, starting with the 2.88 mb floppy.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

pandora
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

I've had good luck with Verbatim DVD+R's standing the (limited) test of time I've been using them, since the mid 00's.

I had some circa 1995 / 1996 Microsoft pressed (not burned) CD's and was cleaning the house. Prior to tossing them, checked to see if they seemed readable. A complete test was not done as these are 1x media, but the files seemed to be there on a quick check.

I've had mixed results with some older burned DVD's, one was left out in light for a few months, and needed data recovery (it was about 6 years old). Most of the pictures stored on it were recovered, but not all. So far, that was my only bad experience with an older (6 years old) burned DVD. I do not recall the maker. At the moment I'm using Philips DVD-R.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"


Mannus
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join:2005-10-25
Fort Wayne, IN
reply to floydb1982

Does anyone remember punching a hole on the opposite side of the 1.44MB disk to make it a 2.88MB disk?



drslash
Goya Asma
Premium
join:2002-02-18
Marion, IA

said by Mannus:

Does anyone remember punching a hole on the opposite side of the 1.44MB disk to make it a 2.88MB disk?

yes


drslash
Goya Asma
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join:2002-02-18
Marion, IA
reply to Mannus

I also recall that the first IBM PS/2 PCs and the accompanying OS at the time would format an 'unpunched' 1.44MB disk to a capacity or 2.88MB when using the '/2.88' parameter (or similar) on the format command. When the OS prompted if another disk was to be formatted and yes was answered, then the OS issued an invalid media for drive message, indicating that the 'unpunched' 1.44MB disk could not be formatted to 2.88MB capacity.
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aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
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I thought the punching was from 720k to 1.44M, not from 1.44M to 2.88M.



drslash
Goya Asma
Premium
join:2002-02-18
Marion, IA

said by aurgathor:

I thought the punching was from 720k to 1.44M, not from 1.44M to 2.88M.

You are probably right. We are talking about stuff from 25 years ago and my memory The same is true of the 'invalid media' message I described. The PS/2 computer would format the first unpunched 720K disk at 1.44MB but not a second one by answering yes to the prompt.
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Save water...drink beer!
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#occupytheworkplace
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Obama...it's junior high school all over again!
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AlphaOne
I see
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join:2004-02-21
reply to Gordo74

Ooops. I mean 1997.
Senior moments in my 40s ???? Not good.



Cthen

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reply to Gordo74

said by Gordo74:

said by AlphaOne:

And that's the reason why I haven't got rid of my ZIP drive which happened to be in the once awesome Gateway 2000 Pentium II 300mhz, circa 2007.

2007? In 2007, I had a 3.2Ghz Athlon XP3200+ with 1GB of RAM and an 80GB HDD... I think you mean more 2002-2004 timeframe.

More of the time era of the '90's. P3 processors were out before the y2k scandal.
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Mannus
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join:2005-10-25
Fort Wayne, IN
reply to AlphaOne

40's are the new 60's