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FF4m3

@rr.com

'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

NHTSA Set to Require Automotive “Black Boxes” in All New Cars: A Good Idea?:

It’s estimated that about 90 percent of new cars and light trucks today have some form of data recorder, or “black box,” installed, but the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is expected to make the devices mandatory on all new cars.

The last hurdle before NHTSA [National Highway Traffic Safety Administration] finalization was a sign-off by the White House of Office of Management and Budget, which gave the a-okay yesterday. With the ball now in NHTSA’s court, it’s only a matter of time before the regulations are finalized, although it’s unclear when the rules would take effect.

Today’s EDRs [Event Data Recorders] connect to an army of sensors and computers on-board: an EDR can remember the last few seconds before a crash occurs, and keep track of things like occupancy and seat-belt usage, traction control status (on/off, activated, etc.), and speed.

Whether or not the NHTSA guidelines are supported by automakers is almost irrelevant–most of the world’s largest automakers, including General Motors, Ford, and Toyota, already package new cars with EDRs–but the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers urged the government to include privacy provisions in the new regulations. It’s unclear what those provisions would look like–especially as many consumers are already warming up to usage-based car insurance programs like State Farm (which tracks miles driven through OnStar) and Progressive (which uses a car’s On-Board Diagnostics port to track driving habits), which open up a driver’s where/when/how to new parties.

NHTSA gets White House OK to mandate vehicle 'black boxes':

The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers — the trade group representing Detroit's Big Three automakers, Toyota Motor Corp, and Volkswagen AG — said the government needs to take into account driver privacy.

"Event data recorders help our engineers understand how cars perform in the real world but looking forward, we need to make sure we preserve privacy. Automakers do not access EDR data without consumer permission, and any government requirements to install EDRs on all vehicles must include steps to protect consumer privacy," said spokeswoman Gloria Bergquist.

Different automakers collect different data. In 2009, not all Toyota EDRs recorded both pre- and post-crash data. By the end of last year, all Toyota and Lexus vehicles included EDRs that can record both.

In May 2010, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers endorsed making EDRs mandatory in all vehicles, but expressed concerns that some in Congress wanted more elaborate and expensive ones than are available.

The devices have been in use for about 20 years.

NHTSA previously issued a new regulation standardizing data collection for event data recorders.

The rule, issued in August 2006, took effect for the 2013 model year that started Sept. 1, standardizes the information EDRs collect and makes retrieving the data easier. Devices must record 15 data elements, including vehicle deceleration, in specific formats.

The recorders collect data for the seconds of a crash, including whether the driver is wearing a seatbelt, speed and whether the brakes were applied.

NHTSA to require automakers to include black boxes in new cars, but privacy concerns linger:

Many motorists don't know it, but it's likely that every time they get behind the wheel, there's a snitch along for the ride.

When a car is involved in a crash or when its airbags deploy, inputs from the vehicle's sensors during the 5 to 10 seconds before impact are automatically preserved. That's usually enough to record things like how fast the car was traveling and whether the driver applied the brake, was steering erratically or had a seat belt on.

The idea is to gather information that can help investigators determine the cause of accidents and lead to safer vehicles. But privacy advocates say government regulators and automakers are spreading an intrusive technology without first putting in place policies to prevent misuse of the information collected.

Data collected by the recorders is increasingly showing up in lawsuits, criminal cases and high-profile accidents.

There's no opt-out. It's extremely difficult for car owners to disable the recorders. Although some vehicle models have had recorders since the early 1990s, a federal requirement that automakers disclose their existence in owner's manuals didn't go into effect until three months ago.

Besides the upcoming proposal to put recorders in all new vehicles, the traffic safety administration is also considering expanding the data requirement to include as many as 30 additional types of data such as whether the vehicle's electronic stability control was engaged, the driver's seat position or whether the front-seat passenger was belted in. Some manufacturers already are collecting the information. Engineers have identified more than 80 data points that might be useful.

Despite privacy complaints, the traffic safety administration so far hasn't put any limits on how the information can be used. About a dozen states have some law regarding data recorders, but the rest do not.

"Right now we're in an environment where there are no rules, there are no limits, there are no consequences and there is no transparency," said Lillie Coney, associate director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a privacy advocacy group. "Most people who are operating a motor vehicle have no idea this technology is integrated into their vehicle."

Part of the concern is that the increasing computerization of cars and the growing transmission of data to and from vehicles could lead to unintended uses of recorder data.

Rep. Michael Capuano, D-Mass., has repeatedly, and unsuccessfully, introduced legislation to require that automakers design recorders so that they can be disabled by motorists

A transportation bill passed by the Senate earlier this year would have required that all new cars and light trucks have recorders and designated a vehicle's owner as the owner of the data. The provision was removed during House-Senate negotiations on the measure at the behest of House Republican lawmakers who said they were concerned about privacy.

"Many of us would see it as a slippery slope toward big government and Big Brother knowing what we're doing and where we are," Rep. Bill Shuster, R-Pa., who is slated to take over the chairmanship of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee in January, said at the time. "Privacy is a big concern for many across America."



beck
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One more step for Big Brother.



goalieskates
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reply to FF4m3

quote:
NHTSA gets White House OK to mandate vehicle 'black boxes'
I'm over the mandates. And over the White House and their fondness for them, too.

Just means I won't buy a new car, even if they mandate that.


Dude111
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reply to FF4m3

 

quote:
'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars
Find it;take it out and smash it into many pieces!

OZO
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3 recommendations

reply to FF4m3

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

With the complete indifference of the public in the US and obsession from the US government with tracking everything what people do I will not be surprised to read here, that in a while some Whatever Safety Administration will propose a law requiring installing Event Data Recorders (ERD) in all homes... And, of course, with the reasoning to protect our children we'll be happy to accept it too

That's how powers silently build cage around us with our own hands... Thanks to overall blindness of the population to what's going on around and implanted willingness to sacrifice everything we had for a small perception of security.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...



NetFixer
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reply to goalieskates

said by goalieskates:

quote:
NHTSA gets White House OK to mandate vehicle 'black boxes'
I'm over the mandates. And over the White House and their fondness for them, too.

Just means I won't buy a new car, even if they mandate that.

"some vehicle models have had recorders since the early 1990s"

How old is the vehicle you currently drive? You may not need to buy a new car to have this technology tattle on you.
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.


Blackbird
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reply to FF4m3

I have zero confidence that privacy will be maintained. Every technological innovation or requirement relating to "tracking" has ended up eroding somebody's privacy in one way or another. Every promise made by the "powers that be" that privacy, this time, will be magically preserved has been broken, sooner or later. Either by redefining terminology or gradual 'mission-creep', such devices have always ended up being exploited by commercial interests or by government agencies at the expense of citizen or user privacy. This will be no exception.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville



Dude111
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reply to FF4m3

 

said by OZO :
That's how powers silently build cage around us with our own hands... Thanks to overall blindness of the population to what's going on around and implanted willingness to sacrifice everything we had for a small perception of security.
Ya its sickening and sad...... THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH FACEBOOK AND THIER STUPID SMARTPHONE!


NetFixer
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reply to Dude111

said by Dude111:

quote:
'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars
Find it;take it out and smash it into many pieces!

If it is tied into the diagnostic system, that may just mean that you would no longer be able to legally drive the vehicle on public streets.

Where I live, the required yearly inspection (without which you can't get a registration sticker or license plate) depends on a totally error free report from the on board diagnostic system.
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.


Blackbird
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reply to FF4m3

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

If the past is any guide to the future, once such devices are required on vehicles, you can just about be certain that things will be designed so that removing or disconnecting them will either: kill the vehicle outright, notably cripple its performance, or produce audio/visual signals that are beyond annoying to everyone in the vehicle.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville



NormanS
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reply to goalieskates

said by goalieskates:

Just means I won't buy a new car, even if they mandate that.

They will impose a "tax" on you if you don't make a mandated new car purchase!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

OZO
Premium
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said by NormanS:

They will impose a "tax" on you if you don't make a mandated new car purchase!

And who are "they"? Do "they" actually exist or it's just "we", so dumb, that we are not realizing, what we're collectively dong?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


NormanS
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said by OZO:

And who are "they"? Do "they" actually exist or it's just "we", so dumb, that we are not realizing, what we're collectively dong?

That was supposed to be a reference to the "tax" on people who don't purchase the government mandated health care coverage.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

fenix_jn

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reply to FF4m3

I think some people are overreacting to this. Black boxes have been present in planes for quite a while and they serve to tell the story when there is no one alive to do so. Granted, car accidents are less lethal than plane crashes in terms of driver/passenger survivability so the possibility of someone being able to recount what had happened is higher but it would help to solve a lot of disputes between who did what in case of an accident.



Hank
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1 edit

Big Brother is correct, it will result in yet another tax because you, the citizen, will no have to pay to hire someone to read the data from the device. Someone talked about planes and the black (really orange) boxes they have. It takes week or months to get all the data off those boxes and interpreted by the NTSB. So if you have an accident and an insurance is filed it may take a lot longer to resolve than it does now.

I do agree that this is just another way for the government to gain control over your everyday life. So will they go the route of Obamacare and have the IRS preform this duty under the guidance of the NTSB? Or will BHO create another new agency to oversee this program.


Mele20
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reply to FF4m3

As of 2012 almost all auto manufacturers had these in anticipation of NHTSA requirements. Honda signed an agreement in Sept 12 with Bosch for a publicly available read out tool (to fulfill NHTSA requirements). The tool is probably expensive but you can buy one. Honda's EDR only records if the airbag deploys...so has to be a bad accident. It doesn't record much either. Nothing like OnStar in all GM cars for many years now. My previous car (Ford 1998) did not have an EDR but by 2001 model my Ford started having them. I can't imagine anyone not using the seatbelt (that is recorded on my Honda's EDR if there is an accident that causes airbag deployment) as the beeping is extremely loud, extremely obnoxious, and very distracting. But the car is satisfied if only the lapbelt is on...it is the shoulder belt that is so awfully uncomfortable and causes accidents because you cannot see to back up so I always remove it then) but you can wear it under your arm, tie it to lap belt so it is not on you at all and the car is ok with that and the EDR would record you were wearing a seat belt).

Here's the list of what cars now have EDR's and if they don't when they will:

www.rimkus.com/uploads/pdfs/Event_Data_Recorder.pdf
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



SparkChaser
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reply to FF4m3

The NHTSA has been on this for awhile.

In 2006, the NHTSA ruled on a standard for black boxes that went into effect in September on 2013 vehicle models.

»www.slashgear.com/nhtsa-expected···7260070/

The truth is that these recording devices have been around for two decades, however for most of that each automaker collected different data. Back in 2006, the NHTSA ruled that all black boxes should collect the same data no matter what automaker made it. This ruling was scheduled to go into effect for all new 2013 model year vehicles starting back on September 1 of this year.

»blogs.automotive.com/report-blac···133.html
--
--
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley



carpetshark3
Premium
join:2004-02-12
Idledale, CO

It's because most of the people are intent on FB and other distracting activities WHILE DRIVING!

Texting is more important than paying attention to traffic lights. You pass a school bus by using a sidewalk. "Hurray for me and to hell with the rest of the world"

If someone had figure out a good way to police these idiots, the more responsible people would be left alone.



goalieskates
Premium
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land of big
reply to NetFixer

said by NetFixer:

"some vehicle models have had recorders since the early 1990s"

How old is the vehicle you currently drive? You may not need to buy a new car to have this technology tattle on you.

True enough, although the amount and nature of the data has grown over time. Earlier models were strictly performance related; now they track driving habits, etc. That's the problem with government monitoring, they start out small, decide they want more, and expand the mandate. Meanwhile no duly-elected representative is given the opportunity to represent.

(It's a 1999. )


Blackbird
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reply to fenix_jn

said by fenix_jn:

I think some people are overreacting to this. Black boxes have been present in planes for quite a while and they serve to tell the story when there is no one alive to do so. Granted, car accidents are less lethal than plane crashes in terms of driver/passenger survivability so the possibility of someone being able to recount what had happened is higher but it would help to solve a lot of disputes between who did what in case of an accident.

They indeed have been on planes - but they're only required by the government on commercial passenger-carrying aircraft... not on ordinary general aviation craft. The true parallel here is for the government to require black boxes on buses and passenger trains - only.

But, once again, those wonderful folks in high places are looking out for us, the little people, and our "best interests" (as well as all the regulatory machinery, bureaucracy, registration, certification, and taxation benefits that will accrue to the government before its over). The lawyers are positively salivating at the prospects of the courtroom gymnastics they can play during accident lawsuits with obscure data dumps from the boxes and the endless interpretations that will be construed from them... and remember, most politicians are lawyers - they look out for their own. The auto companies are giddy with anticipation as they can add their price markup to yet another required, costly, automotive "safety" appliance - and it's those total sales revenues they care about, not what it is they actually sell.

As surely as night follows day, the law of unintended consequences will come into play with this mandate... and before it's over, most of us will bemoan how we ever let yet another link of the chain get forged around our ankles.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville


Link Logger
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reply to FF4m3

When I see phrases like 'there's a snitch along for the ride' or 'have this technology tattle on you', sounds like this technology is justified as some people are simply trying to 'get away with something they know is wrong'.

'Data collected by the recorders is increasingly showing up in lawsuits, criminal cases and high-profile accidents', well if it explains what happened then why shouldn't it? This data is based on physics, so in terms of what happened its pretty clear, now as to why it happened, well enter the lawyers.

I find statements like this to border on hypocritical 'Right now we're in an environment where there are no rules, there are no limits, there are no consequences and there is no transparency', in that if there was something questionable about your driving and the black box could reveal that, then shouldn't there be a consequence or is that what people are trying to avoid?

Heck I'd like to see monitoring on the driver, tell me what level of attention they were paying to driving so when they do cause a crash, it becomes real clear who's fault it is so they can receive the full consequences due to them.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool



SparkChaser
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reply to Blackbird

said by Blackbird:

The auto companies are giddy with anticipation as they can add their price markup to yet another required, costly, automotive "safety" appliance -

Around 90 percent of all automakers are already ahead of the curve though and include a black box already. Some of these manufacturers include General Motors, Ford, Toyota, and Mazda.

»blogs.automotive.com/report-blac···133.html
--
--
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley


sivran
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reply to Link Logger

Wouldn't mind: a way to infallibly prove that the idiot driver was texting when he caused the crash.

Do mind: "Oh hey your blackbox says you were doing 70 and the speed limit's 60. Have a ticket!" Meanwhile everybody else is doing 70 as well, and it was the dipshit that didn't look before merging that actually caused the crash.
--
Think Outside the Fox.



Link Logger
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said by sivran:

Wouldn't mind: a way to infallibly prove that the idiot driver was texting when he caused the crash.

Do mind: "Oh hey your blackbox says you were doing 70 and the speed limit's 60. Have a ticket!" Meanwhile everybody else is doing 70 as well, and it was the dipshit that didn't look before merging that actually caused the crash.

Posted speed limit was 60 and just because everyone else is speeding doesn't change the fact that you were speeding. Likely the speed is 60 for a reason of safety and the fact that someone caused an accident by not paying attention while merging is mostly to blame, but the increased damage/injuries/etc are the fault of the speeding driver, so shouldn't they bear some of the consequences? Simple physics.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


sivran
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Everyone was speeding so there's no increased blame for anyone except the dipshit who didn't look. In that situation 70 is the safest speed.

I always drive with the flow of traffic as my first consideration. Speed limit is dead last on my list of priorities. That means going 80 when everyone else is (or get the hell over to the right, though if average speed is 80 the slow lane's probably still doing 70). And that's why I don't want a little electronic snitch raising my insurance rates just because some insurance bean counter's definition of safety doesn't match reality.
--
Think Outside the Fox.



not

@comcast.net
reply to Link Logger

OBDII+ cars already have snapshot windows of data collection it keeps track of before crashes that can be pulled off the ECU history. Other things like that pretty new OnStar mirror you've got in your car is already tracking your driving habits and can be used against you as well. Heck, if someone was really super inclined to find you guilty of constantly speeding or doing anything else illegal in a car, all they'd have to do is get the GPS data heuristics from your smartphone and you'd be screwed.

Point is, while a ton of people don't like this, it's happening no matter what. Sitting in traffic next to that Google Maps car that's shooting video and pics is breaking your privacy, but you don't see anyone getting out and beating that thing to a pulp, do you? Your WIFI access point has already been mapped out and sitting on Google Maps because you didn't have (NO_MAP) or whatever the opt out SSID append is supposed to be put on it. Wherever you go that there's a camera, you're already logged as being there via that surveillance (even if it's local and not networked). What are you going to do about it? Not buy stuff? Not leave your house? The only think that'll get rid of all this is to put the world back into the dark ages, so unless that's going to happen, learn to deal with it as much as possible until you die.


dave
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reply to Dude111

Re:  

said by Dude111:

THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH FACEBOOK AND THIER STUPID SMARTPHONE!

Yay - it doesn't take long for you to type the word 'Facebook' into any discussion om any topic in here, does it?

Staying on topic was better in the 1980s. People nowadays are more concerned with their stupid conspiracy-theory web sites.

dave
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reply to FF4m3

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

Hypothesis:

1. Any sufficiently complex software system that does not log runtime diagnostic information is unsupportable in practice. ("Why did it do that?" "We have no way to know").

2. A modern car is essentially software-controlled.

Conclusion:

Building a car without a logging system would be a very poor design choice. Causes of malfunction could not be determined and therefore could not be rectified.

That's probably why most cars (the '90%' figure) already have a data-logging system, irrespective of being compelled by law to do so.

So, it seems to me the practical effect of the law might be quite limited. The "lawyer" argument surely already applies, since it would be a defective lawyer who did not know the opposing car had a data recorder.



goalieskates
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reply to not

said by not :

Point is, while a ton of people don't like this, it's happening no matter what. ... What are you going to do about it? Not buy stuff? Not leave your house? The only think that'll get rid of all this is to put the world back into the dark ages, so unless that's going to happen, learn to deal with it as much as possible until you die.

I've already said I won't buy.

Resistance is not futile, and it doesn't have to be spectacular. Some people have always resisted when ideas like this get started - they resisted the Nazis, they resisted the Communists. They didn't all blow up bridges like in the movies, either. Eventually these regimes fail.

As for your "dark ages" comment, ponder the idea that some of those dark ages serfs had more actual freedom and led better lives. Shiny isn't automagically good.

dave
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What are you driving today? Doesn't it already have a data recorder?