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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to FF4m3

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

When I see phrases like 'there's a snitch along for the ride' or 'have this technology tattle on you', sounds like this technology is justified as some people are simply trying to 'get away with something they know is wrong'.

'Data collected by the recorders is increasingly showing up in lawsuits, criminal cases and high-profile accidents', well if it explains what happened then why shouldn't it? This data is based on physics, so in terms of what happened its pretty clear, now as to why it happened, well enter the lawyers.

I find statements like this to border on hypocritical 'Right now we're in an environment where there are no rules, there are no limits, there are no consequences and there is no transparency', in that if there was something questionable about your driving and the black box could reveal that, then shouldn't there be a consequence or is that what people are trying to avoid?

Heck I'd like to see monitoring on the driver, tell me what level of attention they were paying to driving so when they do cause a crash, it becomes real clear who's fault it is so they can receive the full consequences due to them.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool



SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Blackbird

said by Blackbird:

The auto companies are giddy with anticipation as they can add their price markup to yet another required, costly, automotive "safety" appliance -

Around 90 percent of all automakers are already ahead of the curve though and include a black box already. Some of these manufacturers include General Motors, Ford, Toyota, and Mazda.

»blogs.automotive.com/report-blac···133.html
--
--
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Link Logger

Wouldn't mind: a way to infallibly prove that the idiot driver was texting when he caused the crash.

Do mind: "Oh hey your blackbox says you were doing 70 and the speed limit's 60. Have a ticket!" Meanwhile everybody else is doing 70 as well, and it was the dipshit that didn't look before merging that actually caused the crash.
--
Think Outside the Fox.



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

said by sivran:

Wouldn't mind: a way to infallibly prove that the idiot driver was texting when he caused the crash.

Do mind: "Oh hey your blackbox says you were doing 70 and the speed limit's 60. Have a ticket!" Meanwhile everybody else is doing 70 as well, and it was the dipshit that didn't look before merging that actually caused the crash.

Posted speed limit was 60 and just because everyone else is speeding doesn't change the fact that you were speeding. Likely the speed is 60 for a reason of safety and the fact that someone caused an accident by not paying attention while merging is mostly to blame, but the increased damage/injuries/etc are the fault of the speeding driver, so shouldn't they bear some of the consequences? Simple physics.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1

Everyone was speeding so there's no increased blame for anyone except the dipshit who didn't look. In that situation 70 is the safest speed.

I always drive with the flow of traffic as my first consideration. Speed limit is dead last on my list of priorities. That means going 80 when everyone else is (or get the hell over to the right, though if average speed is 80 the slow lane's probably still doing 70). And that's why I don't want a little electronic snitch raising my insurance rates just because some insurance bean counter's definition of safety doesn't match reality.
--
Think Outside the Fox.



not

@comcast.net
reply to Link Logger

OBDII+ cars already have snapshot windows of data collection it keeps track of before crashes that can be pulled off the ECU history. Other things like that pretty new OnStar mirror you've got in your car is already tracking your driving habits and can be used against you as well. Heck, if someone was really super inclined to find you guilty of constantly speeding or doing anything else illegal in a car, all they'd have to do is get the GPS data heuristics from your smartphone and you'd be screwed.

Point is, while a ton of people don't like this, it's happening no matter what. Sitting in traffic next to that Google Maps car that's shooting video and pics is breaking your privacy, but you don't see anyone getting out and beating that thing to a pulp, do you? Your WIFI access point has already been mapped out and sitting on Google Maps because you didn't have (NO_MAP) or whatever the opt out SSID append is supposed to be put on it. Wherever you go that there's a camera, you're already logged as being there via that surveillance (even if it's local and not networked). What are you going to do about it? Not buy stuff? Not leave your house? The only think that'll get rid of all this is to put the world back into the dark ages, so unless that's going to happen, learn to deal with it as much as possible until you die.


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to Dude111

Re:  

said by Dude111:

THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH FACEBOOK AND THIER STUPID SMARTPHONE!

Yay - it doesn't take long for you to type the word 'Facebook' into any discussion om any topic in here, does it?

Staying on topic was better in the 1980s. People nowadays are more concerned with their stupid conspiracy-theory web sites.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to FF4m3

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

Hypothesis:

1. Any sufficiently complex software system that does not log runtime diagnostic information is unsupportable in practice. ("Why did it do that?" "We have no way to know").

2. A modern car is essentially software-controlled.

Conclusion:

Building a car without a logging system would be a very poor design choice. Causes of malfunction could not be determined and therefore could not be rectified.

That's probably why most cars (the '90%' figure) already have a data-logging system, irrespective of being compelled by law to do so.

So, it seems to me the practical effect of the law might be quite limited. The "lawyer" argument surely already applies, since it would be a defective lawyer who did not know the opposing car had a data recorder.



goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 recommendation

reply to not

said by not :

Point is, while a ton of people don't like this, it's happening no matter what. ... What are you going to do about it? Not buy stuff? Not leave your house? The only think that'll get rid of all this is to put the world back into the dark ages, so unless that's going to happen, learn to deal with it as much as possible until you die.

I've already said I won't buy.

Resistance is not futile, and it doesn't have to be spectacular. Some people have always resisted when ideas like this get started - they resisted the Nazis, they resisted the Communists. They didn't all blow up bridges like in the movies, either. Eventually these regimes fail.

As for your "dark ages" comment, ponder the idea that some of those dark ages serfs had more actual freedom and led better lives. Shiny isn't automagically good.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8

What are you driving today? Doesn't it already have a data recorder?


peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to NetFixer

said by NetFixer:

How old is the vehicle you currently drive?

It's 46 years old and I'm going to be driving after an EMP burst in the coming apocalypse unless you got a bigger gun that me.

The black box will be intricately integrated into the ECU and be next to impossible for the average person to negate.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to carpetshark3

said by carpetshark3:

It's because most of the people are intent on FB and other distracting activities WHILE DRIVING!

Texting is more important than paying attention to traffic lights. You pass a school bus by using a sidewalk. "Hurray for me and to hell with the rest of the world"

If someone had figure out a good way to police these idiots, the more responsible people would be left alone.

So, ask for it and next generation of EDR will log usage of text messaging, eating and drinking in the cars, singing songs in the cars, talking loud with others in the car, etc. And, of course.all of that will make our cars much safer. Right?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 recommendation

reply to NetFixer

said by NetFixer:

... "some vehicle models have had recorders since the early 1990s"

How old is the vehicle you currently drive? You may not need to buy a new car to have this technology tattle on you.

21 years old, runs and looks great... and no "black box". I have no problem with black boxes being offered as an option... but I object to having to pay for it if I don't want or feel I need it.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to OZO

I'd rather ask for a car that blocked cell phone signals inside.



Crowbar1

join:2009-06-23
Toronto , ON
reply to Link Logger

That 'black box ' belongs to me . i purchased the vehicle and i'm not giving you permission to remove it or access any data it may contain ......



Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

said by Crowbar1:

That 'black box ' belongs to me . i purchased the vehicle and i'm not giving you permission to remove it or access any data it may contain ......

Well, the way things are going in the privacy realm, you may be unpleasantly surprised at what the authorities (via a warrant) or another person's tort lawyer (via discovery) just might be able to do with "your" black box.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

As of 2012 almost all auto manufacturers had these in anticipation of NHTSA requirements. Honda signed an agreement in Sept 12 with Bosch for a publicly available read out tool (to fulfill NHTSA requirements). The tool is probably expensive but you can buy one. Honda's EDR only records if the airbag deploys...so has to be a bad accident. It doesn't record much either. Nothing like OnStar in all GM cars for many years now. My previous car (Ford 1998) did not have an EDR but by 2001 model my Ford started having them. I can't imagine anyone not using the seatbelt (that is recorded on my Honda's EDR if there is an accident that causes airbag deployment) as the beeping is extremely loud, extremely obnoxious, and very distracting. But the car is satisfied if only the lapbelt is on...it is the shoulder belt that is so awfully uncomfortable and causes accidents because you cannot see to back up so I always remove it then) but you can wear it under your arm, tie it to lap belt so it is not on you at all and the car is ok with that and the EDR would record you were wearing a seat belt).

Here's the list of what cars now have EDR's and if they don't when they will:

www.rimkus.com/uploads/pdfs/Event_Data_Recorder.pdf

Interseting, since neither of my Nissan's beep at all when the passenger doesn't wear a seat belt (I always wear a seatbelt). My Civic on the other hand was somewhat obnoxious about it.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Blackbird

Really guys? Investigation of an accident where criminal charges might be involved you think you should be able to hide evidence, so you can lie about what happened, and duck the consequences, ya right. If you think this is acceptable, your idea of rights are completely screwed.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
reply to sk1939

That list at rimkus.com looks more like a list of "what cars are supported by Event Data Recorder software version 8" than "a list of cars that have Event Data Recorders".

I assume EDR 8.0 is something that rimkus sell.



chip89
Premium
join:2012-07-05
Independence, OH
reply to SparkChaser

I know my 2010 Ford escape has one Ford it is even part of sync vehicle health report.



Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 recommendation

reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Really guys? Investigation of an accident where criminal charges might be involved you think you should be able to hide evidence, so you can lie about what happened, and duck the consequences, ya right. If you think this is acceptable, your idea of rights are completely screwed. ...

I have watched all manner of lawsuits arising worldwide from blackbox data from commercial airliner crashes in which commission-driven lawyers have turned the interpretation of the data upon its head in attempts to get large awards (or by threatening such suits, get large settlements). I have no illusions but that that's what we'll get with mandated automotive blackboxes as well.

As far as the authorities investigating an accident, the presence of blackbox data may or may not improve the quality of the investigation... the data's still subject to interpretation, though it's not an exact science. How many accident investigation teams on your local LE agency will have genuine experts in this - or be willing to pay to retain high-priced experts? One of my concerns is that this will not be the panacea some advocates assert it will be. Our modern belief in the sufficiency and supremacy of technology borders on the idolatrous.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

3 edits
reply to sivran

Whoopeedo. Better never visit Hawaii. The speed limit in this state is 55 mph and you MIGHT (usually not though) get away with 60 mph but above that you will be ticketed and that means a mandatory 50% surcharge on your insurance policy for three years (5 years in California and talk of that here in the state legislature). That means a $1200 policy will cost you almost $2000 a year for three years...fine if you are well-to-do but the average person here finds it a struggle so, consequently, most drivers obey the law. Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive...it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, but geared for tourists not locals who don't have 4+ hours in one day to devote to driving over and back nor have $30-50 to spend on gas for 5-6 hours on the other side.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage

said by Mele20:

Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive...it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, but geared for tourists not locals who don't have 4+ hours in one day to devote to driving over and back.

Gee, that sounds a lot like the drives I frequently had to make to rural areas in East Tennessee before I retired. Except there were more than 20 miles of steep curvy downhill/uphill sections, and add sinkholes that spontaneously would appear and wipe out sections of the road, and ice and snow in the winter months. I guess Paradise is pretty much the same everywhere.
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
reply to Mele20

It is a short drive... If I went from one end of BC to the other, it would be 20+ hours North to South. East-West is around 7-8.

I drive the mountains a lot, and there a reasons for speed limits. I usually just enjoy the scenery. Every time I travel, I see something new and different, even in the same places.

You live in paradise. I'm not feeling your pain.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 recommendation

reply to Blackbird

said by Blackbird:

Our modern belief in the sufficiency and supremacy of technology borders on the idolatrous.

Borders on? It is nothing less than!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


EGeezer
zichrona livracha
Premium
join:2002-08-04
Midwest
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to Mele20

Having driven Maui's Hana road Form Kahului to Twin falls and back, I'd say anyone going 55 on that road would have to be nuts.

That being said, the amount of data stored in GPS devices also boggles the mind.
--
Buckle Up. It makes it harder for the aliens to suck you out of your car.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 edit
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive ...

When I was stationed at Davison Army Airfield, folks seemed surprised at my amusement for being able to cross three state lines in the course of a five hour drive. They could not comprehend driving for 12 hours without crossing a single state line.

... it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, ...

San Jose to Los Angeles: 6 hours, tops, on I-5. 8 hours, minimum, on SR-1. If you ever visit, and like the kind of drive you described, may I suggest the Nacimiento-Fergusson Road?

Edit: Omission.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to Mele20

Your post is highly relevant.



hawaiispeed

@cox.net
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Whoopeedo. Better never visit Hawaii. The speed limit in this state is 55 mph and you MIGHT (usually not though) get away with 60 mph but above that you will be ticketed and that means a mandatory 50% surcharge on your insurance policy for three years (5 years in California and talk of that here in the state legislature). That means a $1200 policy will cost you almost $2000 a year for three years...fine if you are well-to-do but the average person here finds it a struggle so, consequently, most drivers obey the law. Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive...it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, but geared for tourists not locals who don't have 4+ hours in one day to devote to driving over and back nor have $30-50 to spend on gas for 5-6 hours on the other side.

If I could, I drove over the speed limit every time I visited. Never caught once on Oahu, Kuaui or Hawaii. Of course most drove so slowly it wouldn't make a difference.

Generally states don't share speeding ticket information and insurance companies only look at DMV information from the state of issue. I know because I had zero change in premium in California after getting a ticket in Idaho.

As to the 4 hours between sides on the Big Island, yup all the plodding drivers make me pull my hair out trying to drive it so I gave up.


goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 edit
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Really guys? Investigation of an accident where criminal charges might be involved you think you should be able to hide evidence, so you can lie about what happened, and duck the consequences, ya right. If you think this is acceptable, your idea of rights are completely screwed.

Blake

No, yours are. You act like the police haven't been able to determine fault all this time. However did we survive?

The concern isn't so much about hiding evidence, as giving insurance companies excuses not to pay based on arbitrary metrics and not knowing the situation. Speeding is generally bad, and yet as an example, the Maine state police informally raise the speed limit on their interstates when the summer people are leaving just to get them gone. A police officer would be aware of this, a software program belonging to an insurance carrier would not. So you as a driver could be punished for doing something perfectly legal.

This is not a step forward. However, it would facilitate legislators' ability to tax based on miles driven instead of gas purchased, for example. A whole other can of worms ...