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Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 recommendation

reply to Link Logger

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

said by Link Logger:

Really guys? Investigation of an accident where criminal charges might be involved you think you should be able to hide evidence, so you can lie about what happened, and duck the consequences, ya right. If you think this is acceptable, your idea of rights are completely screwed. ...

I have watched all manner of lawsuits arising worldwide from blackbox data from commercial airliner crashes in which commission-driven lawyers have turned the interpretation of the data upon its head in attempts to get large awards (or by threatening such suits, get large settlements). I have no illusions but that that's what we'll get with mandated automotive blackboxes as well.

As far as the authorities investigating an accident, the presence of blackbox data may or may not improve the quality of the investigation... the data's still subject to interpretation, though it's not an exact science. How many accident investigation teams on your local LE agency will have genuine experts in this - or be willing to pay to retain high-priced experts? One of my concerns is that this will not be the panacea some advocates assert it will be. Our modern belief in the sufficiency and supremacy of technology borders on the idolatrous.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

3 edits
reply to sivran
Whoopeedo. Better never visit Hawaii. The speed limit in this state is 55 mph and you MIGHT (usually not though) get away with 60 mph but above that you will be ticketed and that means a mandatory 50% surcharge on your insurance policy for three years (5 years in California and talk of that here in the state legislature). That means a $1200 policy will cost you almost $2000 a year for three years...fine if you are well-to-do but the average person here finds it a struggle so, consequently, most drivers obey the law. Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive...it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, but geared for tourists not locals who don't have 4+ hours in one day to devote to driving over and back nor have $30-50 to spend on gas for 5-6 hours on the other side.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
said by Mele20:

Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive...it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, but geared for tourists not locals who don't have 4+ hours in one day to devote to driving over and back.

Gee, that sounds a lot like the drives I frequently had to make to rural areas in East Tennessee before I retired. Except there were more than 20 miles of steep curvy downhill/uphill sections, and add sinkholes that spontaneously would appear and wipe out sections of the road, and ice and snow in the winter months. I guess Paradise is pretty much the same everywhere.
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
reply to Mele20
It is a short drive... If I went from one end of BC to the other, it would be 20+ hours North to South. East-West is around 7-8.

I drive the mountains a lot, and there a reasons for speed limits. I usually just enjoy the scenery. Every time I travel, I see something new and different, even in the same places.

You live in paradise. I'm not feeling your pain.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 recommendation

reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

Our modern belief in the sufficiency and supremacy of technology borders on the idolatrous.

Borders on? It is nothing less than!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


EGeezer
zichrona livracha
Premium
join:2002-08-04
Midwest
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to Mele20
Having driven Maui's Hana road Form Kahului to Twin falls and back, I'd say anyone going 55 on that road would have to be nuts.

That being said, the amount of data stored in GPS devices also boggles the mind.
--
Buckle Up. It makes it harder for the aliens to suck you out of your car.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 edit
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive ...

When I was stationed at Davison Army Airfield, folks seemed surprised at my amusement for being able to cross three state lines in the course of a five hour drive. They could not comprehend driving for 12 hours without crossing a single state line.

... it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, ...

San Jose to Los Angeles: 6 hours, tops, on I-5. 8 hours, minimum, on SR-1. If you ever visit, and like the kind of drive you described, may I suggest the Nacimiento-Fergusson Road?

Edit: Omission.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to Mele20
Your post is highly relevant.


hawaiispeed

@cox.net
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

Whoopeedo. Better never visit Hawaii. The speed limit in this state is 55 mph and you MIGHT (usually not though) get away with 60 mph but above that you will be ticketed and that means a mandatory 50% surcharge on your insurance policy for three years (5 years in California and talk of that here in the state legislature). That means a $1200 policy will cost you almost $2000 a year for three years...fine if you are well-to-do but the average person here finds it a struggle so, consequently, most drivers obey the law. Link Logger See Profile thinks it is amusing that folks here feel that the other side of the Big Island is a long drive...it IS at 55 mph on a curvy two lane highway with deep gulches, hairpin curves, boulder landslides, flooding, fog in several areas, steep curvy downhill/uphill 20 mile section scenic, yes, but geared for tourists not locals who don't have 4+ hours in one day to devote to driving over and back nor have $30-50 to spend on gas for 5-6 hours on the other side.

If I could, I drove over the speed limit every time I visited. Never caught once on Oahu, Kuaui or Hawaii. Of course most drove so slowly it wouldn't make a difference.

Generally states don't share speeding ticket information and insurance companies only look at DMV information from the state of issue. I know because I had zero change in premium in California after getting a ticket in Idaho.

As to the 4 hours between sides on the Big Island, yup all the plodding drivers make me pull my hair out trying to drive it so I gave up.


goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 edit
reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

Really guys? Investigation of an accident where criminal charges might be involved you think you should be able to hide evidence, so you can lie about what happened, and duck the consequences, ya right. If you think this is acceptable, your idea of rights are completely screwed.

Blake

No, yours are. You act like the police haven't been able to determine fault all this time. However did we survive?

The concern isn't so much about hiding evidence, as giving insurance companies excuses not to pay based on arbitrary metrics and not knowing the situation. Speeding is generally bad, and yet as an example, the Maine state police informally raise the speed limit on their interstates when the summer people are leaving just to get them gone. A police officer would be aware of this, a software program belonging to an insurance carrier would not. So you as a driver could be punished for doing something perfectly legal.

This is not a step forward. However, it would facilitate legislators' ability to tax based on miles driven instead of gas purchased, for example. A whole other can of worms ...

gtoken

join:2003-12-28
Fort Smith, AR
said by goalieskates:

This is not a step forward. However, it would facilitate legislators' ability to tax based on miles driven instead of gas purchased, for example. A whole other can of worms ...

That's what I'm thinking too. I have heard this idea floated. Since cars are getting better fuel economy than ever the taxes from gas usage is going down. So they (our federal government) will impose a mileage tax and it will come from these new black boxes. I'm pretty much sick of big brother. But, we (and I exclude myself) keep putting them in office.


dandelion
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-29
Germantown, TN
kudos:5
reply to FF4m3
The saddest part of this "big brother" technological "improvement" is some/a lot of people are either complacent about it.. or actually encourage it as something helpful and innovative.

Secyurityet
Premium
join:2012-01-07
untied state
reply to sivran
said by sivran:

And that's why I don't want a little electronic snitch raising my insurance rates just because some insurance bean counter's definition of safety doesn't match reality.

Did you ever stop to think that the speed limit was set because of some inherent safety issue with that stretch of highway?

Insurance bean-counters don't set highway speeds. Traffic engineers in consultation with local law enforcement do.

At the end of it all, if you never have an accident or are never cited for an offense, your insurance company's bean-counters will never know.

And, by definition, if either of those occur, then you weren't as skillful with your vehicle as you thought you were...


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
I don't care about a number on a sign. I care about what is actually happening in reality.


Hank
Searching for a new Frontier
Premium
join:2002-05-21
Burlington, WV
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to Secyurityet
said by Secyurityet:

said by sivran:

And that's why I don't want a little electronic snitch raising my insurance rates just because some insurance bean counter's definition of safety doesn't match reality.

Did you ever stop to think that the speed limit was set because of some inherent safety issue with that stretch of highway?

Insurance bean-counters don't set highway speeds. Traffic engineers in consultation with local law enforcement do.

At the end of it all, if you never have an accident or are never cited for an offense, your insurance company's bean-counters will never know.

And, by definition, if either of those occur, then you weren't as skillful with your vehicle as you thought you were...

That is not necessarily true. In some instances people set the speed limit based on the amount of money in the area and their attitude about how that nasty road interrupts the pristine atmosphere of the surrounding area. There are several areas in Loudoun and Faquier Counties in Virginia that this has occurred.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Probably the best explanation for the low speed limit on Winchester Boulevard just north of the town of Los Gatos, California.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Hank
said by Hank:

said by Secyurityet:

said by sivran:

And that's why I don't want a little electronic snitch raising my insurance rates just because some insurance bean counter's definition of safety doesn't match reality.

Did you ever stop to think that the speed limit was set because of some inherent safety issue with that stretch of highway?

Insurance bean-counters don't set highway speeds. Traffic engineers in consultation with local law enforcement do.

At the end of it all, if you never have an accident or are never cited for an offense, your insurance company's bean-counters will never know.

And, by definition, if either of those occur, then you weren't as skillful with your vehicle as you thought you were...

That is not necessarily true. In some instances people set the speed limit based on the amount of money in the area and their attitude about how that nasty road interrupts the pristine atmosphere of the surrounding area. There are several areas in Loudoun and Faquier Counties in Virginia that this has occurred.

Fairfax is infamous for this imo, it's the reason a 4 lane divided road has a speed limit of 35 mph.

armed

join:2000-10-20
Reviews:
·Charter
They should declare all laws of the road unconstitutional.

It my right to drive and my right to drive how I want to drive.

Every law I don't agree with is a bad law that limits my freedom.

Sorry... I just thought I would join in with the stupid comments.
Expand your moderator at work


not

@comcast.net
reply to goalieskates

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

said by goalieskates:

I've already said I won't buy.

Resistance is not futile, and it doesn't have to be spectacular. Some people have always resisted when ideas like this get started - they resisted the Nazis, they resisted the Communists. They didn't all blow up bridges like in the movies, either. Eventually these regimes fail.

As for your "dark ages" comment, ponder the idea that some of those dark ages serfs had more actual freedom and led better lives. Shiny isn't automagically good.

It won't work. The number of non-buyers won't outweigh the numbers of buyers and the companies won't fall. So, your "fight the corporate world" won't work. A good example of this is RIM (the Blackberry maker). Look how many people were trying to not buy they products and make a dent in their future. It didn't happen. It wasn't until a couple of years ago that more and more people moved onto Android and most importantly, their larger corporate contracts moved onto iPhones (due to more carriers having the iPhone now) that their company is finally in trouble. Even so, they're still surviving. It takes a really long time to resist and an amazing number of people and most importantly other corporations to fight just one company with deep pockets. Good and luck if you think your 1 man fight will do anything. lol


not

@comcast.net
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

It's 46 years old and I'm going to be driving after an EMP burst in the coming apocalypse unless you got a bigger gun that me.

The black box will be intricately integrated into the ECU and be next to impossible for the average person to negate.

When an EMP goes off, even your 46 year old car won't work. There is still an electrical system in there that provides you with spark. The battery cranks your car, the alternator sustains the running motor by providing the energy for the spark to ignite the fuel. Have fun pushing it and hoping that the alternator isn't fried in it.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by not :

When an EMP goes off, even your 46 year old car won't work. There is still an electrical system in there that provides you with spark. The battery cranks your car, the alternator sustains the running motor by providing the energy for the spark to ignite the fuel. Have fun pushing it and hoping that the alternator isn't fried in it.

I wonder why my Army training for shooting atomic cannon shells seemed predicated on the survival of the vehicles? We disconnected all radio antennas but one, and shut all motors down.
quote:
Cars dying: Some say that all vehicles traveling will come to a halt, with all modern vehicles damaged because of their use of modern electronics (and one movie even had a bulk, non-electronic part dying). Most likely there will be some vehicles affected, but probably just a small fraction of them (although this could create traffic jams in large cities). A car does not have very long cabling to act as antennas, and there is some protection from metallic construction. As non-metallic materials are used more and more in the future to decrease weight and increase fuel efficiency, this advantage may disappear.

»www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

1 edit
reply to Mele20
said by EGeezer:

Having driven Maui's Hana road Form Kahului to Twin falls and back, I'd say anyone going 55 on that road would have to be nuts.

When I learning how to drive it was at 45-65mph that is the normal city speeds around here .

I find it's very useless to take the freeway since I could take the city streets and get there in the same amount of time. I only use the freeway if it's 30+ miles trip.

here is a list of cars with EDR's

»docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac···9BZZZ8dg

said by not :

said by peterboro:

It's 46 years old and I'm going to be driving after an EMP burst in the coming apocalypse unless you got a bigger gun that me.

The black box will be intricately integrated into the ECU and be next to impossible for the average person to negate.

When an EMP goes off, even your 46 year old car won't work. There is still an electrical system in there that provides you with spark. The battery cranks your car, the alternator sustains the running motor by providing the energy for the spark to ignite the fuel. Have fun pushing it and hoping that the alternator isn't fried in it.

That is why I will buy a steam engine for my car it's immune to EMP's. :P


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

said by sivran:

Wouldn't mind: a way to infallibly prove that the idiot driver was texting when he caused the crash.

Do mind: "Oh hey your blackbox says you were doing 70 and the speed limit's 60. Have a ticket!" Meanwhile everybody else is doing 70 as well, and it was the dipshit that didn't look before merging that actually caused the crash.

Posted speed limit was 60 and just because everyone else is speeding doesn't change the fact that you were speeding. Likely the speed is 60 for a reason of safety and the fact that someone caused an accident by not paying attention while merging is mostly to blame, but the increased damage/injuries/etc are the fault of the speeding driver, so shouldn't they bear some of the consequences? Simple physics.

Blake

O please.

I call bullshit on arbitrary speed limits.
Unless an engineer says the speed limit is warranted, I don't recognize it.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by AVD:

Unless an engineer says the speed limit is warranted, I don't recognize it.

Fine, but you forfeit the right to complain here when you exceed the posted speed limit.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
said by dave:

said by AVD:

Unless an engineer says the speed limit is warranted, I don't recognize it.

Fine, but you forfeit the right to complain here when you exceed the posted speed limit.

says who?
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Those who think it's idiotic to ignore a sign and then complain at the consequences of ignoring that sign.

(You'll note that I don't say "you should not ignore the sign")


ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA
reply to Dude111

Re:  

said by Dude111:

quote:
'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars
Find it;take it out and smash it into many pieces!

Then because of the integration your car will be useless.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to dave

Re: 'Black Box' Data Recorders Required In All New Cars

said by dave:

Those who think it's idiotic to ignore a sign and then complain at the consequences of ignoring that sign.

(You'll note that I don't say "you should not ignore the sign")

As a technical board, I think those who believe a traffic control device (ex: sign, semaphore) means anything without the required engineering support should be ignored.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
reply to dave
You're of course ignoring all of the signs that are set artificially low to generate revenue. Why else would you have a speed limit of 35 on a relatively straight 4 lane road that isn't near a school zone and has few traffic lights.