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rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
reply to ConstantineM

Re: [General] Google voice going paid?

said by ConstantineM:

How lame, nitzan See Profile! Google Voice is about the only provider ever discussed on this forum that provides:

1. SMS.

Well, there you go. For the one of us that cares, GV offers SMS. My problem with Google Voice is I never know what they're going to be doing next year -- or next week. They've committed to nothing. So why would you plan anything around them?

The best that can be said about GV is that (for now) you can get an OBi and make free outgoing calls. If you want a number that you know is going to be there next year, go with someone else.

I like picking a vendor and settling in with them. I don't want to worry about when (because it's a matter of "when" not "if") Google decides to either charge (how much, no one knows) or just give up on the experiment.

But I'm not looking for SMS in a VoIP provider, so what do I know?

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
reply to bbbc
said by bbbc:

It is what it is. Give the VoIP guys a break. How many guys (and gals) our age give a sh*t about texting from a computer?

Really? I thought SMS was THE most important feature you could get in VoIP service.

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

1 recommendation

reply to ConstantineM
said by ConstantineM:

How lame, nitzan See Profile! Google Voice is about the only provider ever discussed on this forum that provides:

1. SMS.

2. Mnemonic phone numbers, without any "select a state/city" bullshit.

How exactly do you guys expect to compete with Google Voice if you don't offer any services that many people use Google Voice for?

Mmm, I think that the large majority of GV users are using it because it's free.

As far as SMS over IP (SMOIP), a few VoIP providers offer it (Anveo and Vitelity come to mind) but I don't know that there has been a big consumer demand for it.

Mnemonic phone numbers are cute, but again there is not a big consumer demand for them except in the case of TF numbers. And even TF mnemonic numbers are less important than they used to be except for the handful like 1-800-Flowers.

GV is [not] a threat because of SMS (would be different if they had S&M) or because of Mnemonics (another niche, most people don't need a phone number that spells out their name).

The main attribute of Bluto is [large].

The main attribute of Paris is [Eiffel Tower].

The main attribute of Dolly Parton is....well, I don't want to milk this any more.

But surely the main attribute of GoogleVoice is [free].

And they are smart enough to know that.


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
said by PX Eliezer :

Mnemonic phone numbers are cute, but again there is not a big consumer demand for them except in the case of TF numbers. And even TF mnemonic numbers are less important than they used to be except for the handful like 1-800-Flowers.

If you have a business, whether large or small, I think they help with marketing. I got a toll-free with ending zeros, 0000. You get the magic all eights and you get the Asian crowd who believes in luck. I helped a roofer get XXX-ROOF. Again, getting all these numbers are a pain in the ass, but I think it's worth it in the long run.

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
said by bbbc:

I helped a roofer get XXX-ROOF.

Right, but Connie's point is that the [area code] does not matter, that we are in a continental pool where locality is irrelevant.

I disagree with him.

If you are in Nashville, you might hesitate to call the number GET-NEW-ROOF because that would be in Montreal. (Note to mods: This [438-639-7663] is a non-working number, no 639 exchange in that AC yet).

People [do] still notice area codes. Locality does matter, aside from the TF codes.


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
said by PX Eliezer :

Right, but Connie's point is that the [area code] does not matter, that we are in a continental pool where locality is irrelevant.

I disagree with him.

If you are in Nashville, you might hesitate to call the number GET-NEW-ROOF because that would be in Montreal. (Note to mods: This [438-639-7663] is a non-working number, no 639 exchange in that AC yet).

People [do] still notice area codes. Locality does matter, aside from the TF codes.

Sorry, you are spot on. The area code totally matters with vanity numbers, people want to know that you're local.

As far as the Obihai ATAs, they are simply the best stand-alone device right now. Free GV is an added bonus that probably won't last.

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union

ConstantineM

join:2011-09-02
San Jose, CA
reply to rblizz
said by rblizz:

The best that can be said about GV is that (for now) you can get an OBi and make free outgoing calls. If you want a number that you know is going to be there next year, go with someone else.

I like picking a vendor and settling in with them. I don't want to worry about when (because it's a matter of "when" not "if") Google decides to either charge (how much, no one knows) or just give up on the experiment.

What a bunch of FUD-spreading.

Do any PAYG VoIP providers that are ALREADY cheap offer any kind of price guarantees for the future?

Then why do you expect Google to be any different?

You guys are so biased against Google Voice, it's just ridiculous!


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
said by ConstantineM :

You guys are so biased against Google Voice, it's just ridiculous!

You're making me snicker. I use Google Voice a ton for North American long distance. I revert to VoIP.ms when I'm calling overseas. I remember the day when calling Europe cost a ton. Hell, I pay under 2¢ a minute, billed in seconds, to call England.

Texting through a VoIP provider is really a niche service. Out of curiosity, do you have a honey in some country that you can't text them without it costing a fortune through your mobile provider?

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union

cell14

join:2012-01-04
Miami Beach, FL
Reviews:
·localphone.com
reply to nitzan
said by nitzan:

if and when they start charging for service the grand majority of users will move on to real VOIP providers.

I would not be so sure.
With a real CS and some improvements they could start charging and even with the current set up a 0.25c/min charge would be tolerable for many people.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
I don't think so, but of course only future may tell...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
We'll see soon, keep checking....
»twitter.com/googlevoice


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
reply to dicodread
I think GV will suffer if they start to charge. As someone else said, this conversation comes up each year. Aren't they (Google) using us as cheap guinea pigs to master voice recognition for their other products?

There is two worlds right now, Skype or VoIP providers. Cheap VoIP will always attract hardcore geeks. Skype will be used by the rest of the masses.

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
reply to ConstantineM
said by ConstantineM:

What a bunch of FUD-spreading.

Do any PAYG VoIP providers that are ALREADY cheap offer any kind of price guarantees for the future?

Then why do you expect Google to be any different?

You guys are so biased against Google Voice, it's just ridiculous!

What FUD have I spread? Google has been purposely coy about their long-term plans for GV -- this is not something I've done, it's something they've done.

Do you think I'm anti-Google? I'm currently using Google Chrome, I own an Android -- I got my wife and brothers and a nephew to buy Android phones and two nephews to buy Android tablets. I almost exclusively use Google Search.

Fact is, as of now (in the 2nd week of December) no one knows for sure if Google Voice will free in 2013 or not -- and it its like this every year. That's my problem with GV.


NotTheMama
What Would Earl Do?

join:2012-12-06
reply to PX Eliezer70
I use Google Voice because it's free... of any taxes, fees, etc., and because I'm not forced to have 911/E911/whatever. I'd be happy to pay a small fee each month to anyone as long as none of it went back to the govt. (pure rip-off there) and I weren't required to have 911.

cell14

join:2012-01-04
Miami Beach, FL
Reviews:
·localphone.com
reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70 See Profile
People do still notice area codes. Locality does matter, aside from the TF codes.
[/BQUOTE :

Locality does matter big time, not only with vanity numbers. BTW What I like on my GV numbers that I was able( things are different now though) pick not only the area codes but also the exchanges plus easy to remember numbers.I wish I could say the same about my SIp providers.



bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
reply to dicodread
I guess I'm lost. The VoIP providers don't have endless exchanges / prefixes to offer their customers. As I said before, you get your vanity number from wherever and then port it to your VoIP provider. Am I missing something that doesn't exist?

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union


blohner

join:2002-06-26
Cortlandt Manor, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Google Voice
·Optimum Online
reply to dicodread
For a lot of us (myself included) GV is a no brainer for free... I have other providers as a backup (including at least one DID) should that change...
I use GV in conjunction with Android and the 'visual voicemail' equivalent - including voice to text is excellent for a free service (we use voice to text at my office and the commercial recognition rate is better than GV - but comes at a price)...
I was with Vonage before and ported through T-Mobile prepay and am using GV for 2 years or so by now... If they go paid I would stay if it's reasonable... The minute we get fees, taxes etc... added I will be looking again... (Not to beat a dead horse but at my parents place in good old Germany I get 16/1 internet, unlimited local calls, 4 DiDs, 4 Mobile SIM cards with unlimited outgoing to domestic landlines for the price of 30EUR from multiple providers... - not sure why it is such a problem to provide the same service on this side of the Atlantic)
--
I am addicted to speed --- Boost + speed that is ---

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

1 recommendation

reply to ConstantineM
said by ConstantineM:

You guys are so biased against Google Voice, it's just ridiculous!

You said "By giving unwarranted advise against APNS with their telco hat on, OnSIP ruins SIP for everyone."

You likewise said:

why OnSIP thinks that the whole NAT44 and 3GPP industry, together with Apple, should change just for the sake of letting stubborn companies like OnSIP to not have to invest a cent into actually doing some innovation in the mobile space, and for the sake of letting OnSIP to basically just run the solutions created by others decades ago.

Your complaints against CC are legendary. I'm not talking just about recent stuff. It began over a year ago over esoteric matters like having a [+] sign in CID.

You also said:

And, yes, other than Google Voice, there is no other single PAYG VoIP provider in North America that I'm completely happy with on all fronts — they all offer varying degrees of features, reliability, stability....

said by ConstantineM:

You guys are so biased against Google Voice, it's just ridiculous!

The reverse could be said of you.

ConstantineM

join:2011-09-02
San Jose, CA
reply to PX Eliezer70

and ratecenters are still irrelevant to real people

said by PX Eliezer70:

said by bbbc:

I helped a roofer get XXX-ROOF.

Right, but Connie's point is that the [area code] does not matter, that we are in a continental pool where locality is irrelevant.

I disagree with him.

If you are in Nashville, you might hesitate to call the number GET-NEW-ROOF because that would be in Montreal. (Note to mods: This [438-639-7663] is a non-working number, no 639 exchange in that AC yet).

People [do] still notice area codes. Locality does matter, aside from the TF codes.

Who's Connie? But, indeed, he/she does seem to represent my point of view. :-)

When I say that locality is irrelevant, I'm also saying this from the point of view of a major metropolitan area, like San Jose. Why should I care if I have a 408 or a 650? Given a choice of a name or a hobby, vs. a CO that services a random ill-defined area you have no clue of the boundaries of, would you really go for the CO option? In addition, why would I care if my 408 is in Sunnyvale, Campbell, Saratoga or San Jose, or any other CO; in addition, why should I care if it's in SNJS WEST, SNJS NORTH or SNJS SOUTH? What's even the difference between these, and how exactly are they defined, if at all they are defined for the general public? Does AT&T / PACIFIC BELL really charges different rates depending on where in the single city of San Jose you live?

When you go to buy a mobile phone in the mall, and tell them you want a 408 in San Jose, they won't even ask you if you want WEST, NORTH or SOUTH. Somehow I recall a T-Mo screen in some shop where I was almost assigned a number from San Jose East (eew! :-). Since there was no other choice than a stupid and meaningless location, I said that East wasn't cool at all (gave them a "man, that's not cool!" look), and made them select San Jose West for me. :-) Yet somehow there's no East when I look at the official allocation list of the 408 NPA, e.g. T-Mo must be making up their own ratecenter names. »www.nanpa.com/nas/public/assigne···paId=408

In Canada, Fido lets you choose the last 4 digits of a number; I still have that number, with CallCentric now. CallCentric would not have had my business if not for Fido; I would not have kept the number if it wasn't so cool.

You say you disagree with a position, yet then you yourself claim that people notice the NPA. NPA != Rate Center (such scams with NXX being a ratecenter happen only in NA, BTW).

Yes; NPA is the only thing they notice; but these stupid providers like Anveo make you go through the hassle of having to choose states and ratecenters instead (Anveo doesn't even let you choose NPA-NXX like CC somewhat does, and they don't even let you choose a city (they have no "San Jose" in their list of cities); yet they claim there's a "city" called "SAN JOSE: SOUTH DA", WTF? No such thing!).

And not everyone runs a local business where having a number listed under the same city as the one where you operate in is important. If you are actually running a local business like that, which requires a really local number, and not just NPA, then I can't believe the local phone companies are all so bad and expensive that you must resort to VoIP for your one-phone-line operation. Isn't the local book listing worth the extra 20$/month you pay to an RBOC?

Again, NPAs matter somewhat. Rate centers — try explaining their concept to a foreigner without feeling utterly stupid and irrelevant.

ConstantineM

join:2011-09-02
San Jose, CA
reply to bbbc

mnemonic phone numbers

said by bbbc:

Humm, most of my DIDs are vanity / phonewords. These numbers are never easy to get and I pay for it. I've jumped through hoops getting these numbers from one provider (who holds the prefix in the area I want) and then porting them to a VoIP provider that is a million times cheaper. Porting always seem to be a hassle too, but long story short, I get the numbers after a ton of work on my part.

Which provider did you get those numbers from? I've asked Verizon Wireless, Sprint, AT&T Mobility and T-Mobile USA for letting me choose at least the last 4 digits of the number, and none of them said it's possible.

Which is really dumb. I'm not asking for 0000, 1111 or 7777; I'm asking for a random number that spells my name in any area code within the region; they surely have lots of such numbers, and they certainly couldn't care less who they'd give such a number to; yet they still don't offer such a simple service.

Fido Solutions in Canada does offer it; dunno if other operators do, too.

ConstantineM

join:2011-09-02
San Jose, CA
reply to PX Eliezer70

the balance!

said by PX Eliezer70:

… Your complaints against CC are legendary. I'm not talking just about recent stuff. It began over a year ago over esoteric matters like having a [+] sign in CID. …

LOL. I'm flattered you remember my every complaint, especially those against CallCentric!

I'm trying so hard in order to bring the slightest balance to the table. Google-Voice-and-IPKall-are-bad-'cause-free-no-support, noone-needs-SMS, which-rate-center-do-you-require, don't-forget-to-dial-011, why-would-anyone-need-TCP and Apple-is-bad is basically the never-ending theme of the regulars in this forum! :-p

Stewart

join:2005-07-13
kudos:25
Unfortunately, rate centers still do matter. Suppose your mom lives in Palo Alto. She has an AT&T landline with unlimited local calling and a prepaid cell phone, calls you frequently (using the landline, of course), and talks for a long time. If you choose a number in SNJS NORTH, those calls would be local and free for her; SNJS SOUTH would be a message rate toll call.

nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:8
reply to ConstantineM

Re: [General] Google voice going paid?

said by ConstantineM:

End You guys live in your magic NA VoIP world where noone needs SMS.

I'd love to offer SMS, but it takes a lot more than wishful thinking. SMS-enabled carriers are very few (I can only think of one) and then they don't even offer it themselves - you have to go through another company to actually offer the SMS capability. Last I checked it costs a few thousands to setup and at least $1/mo extra per DID on top of what we already pay per DID, not to mention the carrier(s) who supports it is more expensive and more of a pain in the ass to deal with than alternatives. It's easy for you to say "you should offer it!" but are consumers really willing to pay $2-3 extra a month just to have SMS? you- maybe, but everybody? that's a risk I'm not willing to take at this point - especially not when there are "free" alternatives like Google Voice. Why would someone port their number over to us and pay us $7-8/mo for an SMS-enabled DID when they could do it for free?

You talk like we (providers) have this secret handshake where we'd agreed on depriving users of SMS. That's not the case- I've been wanting to offer it for years. When I checked multiple times it just wasn't economical. I hope it will get cheaper in the future, but that's not up to providers - it's up to the one company who offers SMS to VOIP providers.

nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:8
reply to cell14
said by cell14:

With a real CS and some improvements they could start charging and even with the current set up a 0.25c/min charge would be tolerable for many people.

Real customer service? with Google? lol I don't think so.

And if they charge it won't be 0.25c/minute - expect more like 1cent a minute or more, plus a monthly charge ranging from $1 to ??? per month - in other words, what everybody else charges because we're all dependent on the cost structure of telephony that doesn't change just because you're Google.

ConstantineM

join:2011-09-02
San Jose, CA
reply to Stewart

Re: the balance!

Do you actually know if there is a difference between SNJS NORTH and SNJS SOUTH, or is it just hot air? Why would calls between Palo Alto and SNJS NORTH be free; they're not even in the same NPA.

Moreover, your example doesn't pass a simple BS test. Unlike still in Canada, in the US it's been a long time as US-wide long distance is completely complementary with every single wireless provider; plus, last I checked, even Embarq offered relatively affordable long distance plans on their landline back in the day when I was forced to have one; I'm sure AT&T does, too. Nowadays everyone has a phone with some kind of unlimited minutes; noone even knows what a ratecenter is, or which one they're "assigned to".

I know of noone in the US who would switch their mobile phone number from SNJS NORTH to Palo Alto if they ever move from one city to the next; if I ever meet such a person, I'll make sure to ask them for their rationale, and, most likely, tell them that they're an idiot. Every single person I know who've moved to the Bay Area from another state or a part of the state, has kept their old phone number. Anyone who has moved within the Bay Area did so, too. 408/650/415/510 are all interchanged. I'm 100% certain that most calls anyone gets these days are not local calls within their ratecenter from their mother; it's probably mostly new friends, plus a couple of old ones, but mostly new. Again, for us, the cloud computing generation, the ratecenters are completely meaningless; a nearby NPA with a great mnemonic number is good enough. My Bay Area number is 7-letter–digit mnemonic. :-) No common provider other than Google offers this publicly and at nominal cost (being — mnemonics really do cost the same as regular numbers).


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
reply to dicodread

(888) 888-8888

Getting vanity numbers is a total bitch. Here is one example, I wanted a number that a guy had with TMO prepaid. He said I could buy it off of him. I killed him with kindness. At one point, he was supposed to meet my mom, he flaked. He flaked on me several times after that. My family told me to give it up after a few months. Long story short, kept my cool, and got the number from the effer.

Other times, I have requested numbers from the local telcos of the areas I wanted and usually have to do it as a business number that terminates as voicemail in the CO. After I establish this new service and get the first bill, I port the sucker(s) to my VoIP provider. This avenue can easily cost $100+ to get done and a lot of patience.

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union

Stewart

join:2005-07-13
kudos:25
reply to ConstantineM

Re: the balance!

said by ConstantineM:

Do you actually know if there is a difference between SNJS NORTH and SNJS SOUTH, or is it just hot air? ... even Embarq offered relatively affordable long distance plans on their landline back in the day when I was forced to have one; I'm sure AT&T does, too.

OK, I was slightly wrong; bay area local calling areas have actually shrunk since I lived there!

Looking at AT&T.com, if you live e.g. in Los Altos, the lowest cost flat-rate non-lifeline residential landline is $21/mo. (+ fees and taxes), while the lowest cost package with unlimited nationwide calling is $42. Now, if you go to »localcalling.sbc.com/ and enter 650-559, you will see that 408-232 (SNJS North) is in the local calling are, while 408-224 (SNJS South) is not.

You can also try entering the latter two exchange codes and see that Sunol is a local call from San Jose, but only if you live in the southern part.

wideglide36

join:2003-11-08
Altoona, PA
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Future Nine Corp..
reply to dicodread

Re: [General] Google voice going paid?

Just thinking out loud here.

If Google Voice does eventually turn into a paid service and offers competitive rates and 911 service, plus maybe a few other goodies, why would someone want to pay to port out?

Unless the other big Voip companies offered free porting as some did during the CC problems.

I just don't see the advantage in changing from Google Voice to another Voip if all things considered are fairly even.

I'm sure I'm missing something.

Also, in the case of vanity numbers, I don't understand the point of getting a number such as xxx-ROOF.

Who wants to figure out the numbers that correlate with ROOF?

Wouldn't it be better to instead use a number with a popular date such as 1225 or 0704 or 0101?

Again, just thinking out loud.......

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

1 recommendation

reply to ConstantineM

Re: and ratecenters are still irrelevant to real people

said by ConstantineM:

stupid providers like Anveo

There you go again.

Well, I do compliment you for consistency, Constantine.

You've made it clear that you disdain every VoIP provider with equal impartiality (except the limited-service providers GoogleVoice and IPKall).

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

1 edit
reply to Stewart

Re: the balance!

People who grew up after the mid-1980's or who came to the US after that period, are probably not so familiar with the history and the rationale for the LATA's.

LATA's were a necessary tool for allowing CLEC's to come into the marketplace without total chaos.

California (both Verizon areas and AT&T/SBC areas) also has the concept of Zone Unit Management (ZUM).

In most states we have:

Local calling
Local/Regional toll (Intra-LATA)
Long distance (Inter-LATA)

Whereas in most California areas it is akin to:

Local calling
ZUM-3 (typically 13-16 miles in metro areas)
Local/Regional toll (Intra-LATA)
Long distance (Inter-LATA)

I would agree that THAT goes beyond what is needed for carrier competition. At this point there probably should be no service distinctions other than Intra-LATA and Inter-LATA.