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FTRBRDBND

@sbcglobal.net

[Installer] Did Jupiter Just Move???

So...Frontier recently began reselling HughesNet Gen4, and I have done about 10 installs since it was rolled out in Southwestern Ohio.

I have had "some" pointing problems, and I think I have the hang of it now, but this situation is just too damn weird...

All of our Gen4 jobs have been at 220 Azimuth, 38 Elevation, and 26 Tilt, all on Beam 32. None of us have ever gotten any higher that 135 on signal strength.

There was a nationwide activation/registration outage yesterday that prevented us from completing any installs, but when I did finally lock the out-route I was hitting a transponder at a completely different azimuth. The azimuth was right around 200 rather than 220...what gives?

The modem downloaded fine once the outage cleared, and the customer is getting Gen4 speeds, but I could never get the dang thing to peak shooting at the 220 azimuth.

I checked and re-checked my azimuth using a smart phone app, my GPS unit, and even a conventional compass, all of them showed me pointing at 200 rather than 220 when it finally worked.

Any other installers run into this within the last day or so? Any ideas? Am I just in a weird southern Ohio black hole??

The irony is another tech in a completely different area ran into this today as well...



chip89

join:2012-07-05
Independence, OH

Highly unlikely if they did it would be to make sure it would not get hit by something in space.



FTRBRDBND

@sbcglobal.net

I agree that it's unlikely but it still doesn't make ANY sense...

Yesterday at 220 I wasn't able to get anything higher than the ubiquitous 15 on signal, today I got to 29 which says to me I am indeed hitting SOME transponder at that azimuth.

Despite re-pointing, changing radios twice, and a modem swap, I never got the thing to lock on.

Yesterday and today both I was able to randomly swing the dish and hit something right around 200 that almost instantly gave me a 75 or higher. With a little pointing I got as high as 115 yesterday and 125 today, all at the 200 azimuth. The modem would lock the out-route but never even tried the registration due to the outage 12/7/12.

Today, same damn thing, nothing at 220 but a crap-ton at 200 and a successfully registered modem...I'm starting to think I'm going crazy or losing my sense of direction...



diablo1892
Plough, sew, water, harvest. Repeat.

join:2011-04-21
Friendly, WV
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
·HughesNet Satell..

said by FTRBRDBND :

due to the outage 12/7/12.

Outage?? This got my attention quite rather quickly.. I am currently noticing a slight better speed and connection than yesterday and earlier today. So why was the outage occurring i wonder?
--
HT1000/ BeamID 32/ Power Max plan/ 4 pcs on a D-Link wired router/ wireless D-Link router with password
Support only the gaming company's that matter the most, pay for something that actually is worth buying or has a good reason for how much it's worth.

stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to FTRBRDBND

Haven't ran into that issue.
The activation outage sure did play havoc & created all sorts of crazy issues. Today was smooth & quick while activating.
Beam 40 here & have never got below 150 even on a heavy rainy/cloudy day. The highest was last week 1 day I hit 165. I have noticed the dish pans are crap & get many that are warped even though they come out of an undamaged box. Have had to on many occasions bend & fight with the dish pan to get decent signal & ovt to pass.
The best I can tell the elevation bolt is in direct line with the azimuth. Also having accurate gps coordinates in the modem will make things go much smoother. Not only does it select the correct beam for your location, it also calculates the distance from dish to satellite & adjusts accordingly while ranging. Accurate gps coordinates are critical with gen4.



FTRBRDBND

@sbcglobal.net
reply to diablo1892

I don't know if the "outage" was on our end (Frontier) or on HN's end. All I know was that I got a call from management around 3pm EST yesterday saying that all registrations/activations of HN installs were failing and they had declared an "outage".

I didn't get any calls from previous installs that said they had lost service so I would guess that existing customers were/are fine.

I'm just weirded out about the direction the dish was pointing when it finally locked on...

Anybody have any idea what the heck would be in space around the 220 SW azimuth? Where is Spaceway? We don't do any Spaceway jobs so I really have no idea...


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to FTRBRDBND

Outage was nationwide. Tech support person I spoke with said the calls started coming in from techs @ 8 am est. I left my job after 3 pm & it still wasn't up, couldn't get past terminal activation. Went back this morning & it went through & was running in less than 10 min.
Spaceway is @ 95w & is approx 20+ degrees different than echostar 17. There isn't no way you could accidentally lock onto it with gen4 equipment.



FTRBRDBND

@sbcglobal.net
reply to stardust3

I don't think we've had any warped pans to my knowledge, I could be wrong as I'm still a satellite newb..

I had a suspicion about the GPS coordinates as well so I checked and rechecked and didn't really have any noticeable deviation.

So, kind of off topic, what is "ovt"? Onsite Validation Tool? We don't have to complete on of those, the trainer said that was only a "HughesNet Technician thing".

Also, is there a signal level I should be looking for? It's kind of alarming when I've seen various posts here and elsewhere claiming levels above 140...none of us here has ever hit anywhere near that. I asked the trainer what I should be shooting for and all he said was "the highest you can get it"...okay...

I do appreciate the info/advice, I just want to do the best I can for my customers.



dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5

"Southwestern Ohio" is fairly broad, but using Cincinnati as a location "Jupiter" (ES17) is 219 magnetic, 39 elevation, 22 skew (tilt).

From that same location, Spaceway3 is 202 magnetic, 43 elevation, and 13 skew (tilt).

stardust3 said "There isn't no way you could accidentally lock onto it with gen4 equipment." Ignoring the double negative, is it a certainty that Spaceway3 could not physically be capable of transmitting a compatible signal if Hughes chose to use it for some beam? Why not? I agree that it wouldn't be accidental, but what about on purpose?

On edit: If the elevation and skew were both correct for ES17 I would suspect a bad compass...
--
Motosat self-pointing dishes: .74 meter G74 on 127W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|Hughes HN7000S|Verizon UMW190 Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of hnFAP-Alert, PC-OPI and DSSatTool



diablo1892
Plough, sew, water, harvest. Repeat.

join:2011-04-21
Friendly, WV
reply to FTRBRDBND

oh by the way FTRBRDBND the sun is or is going to be spinning a slight closer to earth around this time.. Maybe our gravitational pull or perhaps earth moved and the sun stayed put??



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to stardust3

said by stardust3:

I have noticed the dish pans are crap & get many that are warped even though they come out of an undamaged box. Have had to on many occasions bend & fight with the dish pan to get decent signal & ovt to pass.gps coordinates are critical with gen4.

What is a dish pan"?

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to FTRBRDBND

said by FTRBRDBND :

I don't think we've had any warped pans to my knowledge, I could be wrong as I'm still a satellite newb..

I had a suspicion about the GPS coordinates as well so I checked and rechecked and didn't really have any noticeable deviation.

So, kind of off topic, what is "ovt"? Onsite Validation Tool? We don't have to complete on of those, the trainer said that was only a "HughesNet Technician thing".

Also, is there a signal level I should be looking for? It's kind of alarming when I've seen various posts here and elsewhere claiming levels above 140...none of us here has ever hit anywhere near that. I asked the trainer what I should be shooting for and all he said was "the highest you can get it"...okay...

I do appreciate the info/advice, I just want to do the best I can for my customers.

This is a scary admission. Did you actually and personally attend a Gen4 installer training session conducted by Hughes? I ask, because I can't quite imagine those kind of answers coming from a certified instructor. Sounds more like second-hand training to me.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012

stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to grohgreg

Reflector aka dish pan


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to FTRBRDBND

I don't see how you can get by not using the ovt, it basically checks the quality of install & verifies the dish is properly aligned. I have personally had good signal & also failing ovt at the same time which required some additional fine tuning to pass.



FTRBRDBND

@sbcglobal.net
reply to dbirdman

I indeed WAS shooting right around 200-203 and had to crank the elevation to above 40 when the modem locked on...but the tilt/skew was still at 26..

Like I said, this was all VERY strange. And to have another technician run into the same exact problem just seems like no coincidence...I know 100% without a doubt that I was hitting nowhere near 220 when this thing locked on. To have 3 different compass/GPS/devices all say the same thing is not happenstance.

Regarding the compatibility of Gen4 equipment w/ Spaceway- I even asked this exact question and the trainer said there is no way to accidentally train to Spaceway w/ a Gen4 HT1000 modem.

I've heard rumors here and elsewhere that eventually we will begin doing Spaceway jobs, but that was supposed to be when Hughes migrated subscribers over to Jupiter, freeing up additional bandwidth on Spaceway. Supposedly, they are going to be "upgrading" Spaceway somehow to provide speeds similar to ES17. Like I said, this is all hearsay...

And to the poster who questioned my "scary admission", I'll be the first to admit that I am still very green at this, but it's not rocket science, and I believe I have a relatively firm understanding of how to do a proper install of Gen4. The trainer we had is from within Frontier, who was trained by an "official" HughesNet employee.

And regarding the OVT, don't you need to have a HughesNet employee ID or tech # to use it? We, since we are Frontier employees, wouldn't have one of those. To be honest, I've never even tried to click that link during activation to know if I can even access it or not. Maybe I'll try on the next job I get.



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to stardust3

said by stardust3:

Reflector aka dish pan

Ok, had to make sure. So how does a plastic reflector get "warped" in the box? Metal I can see, but the ones I've seen are some form of plastic - and should be elastic enough to resist warpage in the absence of heat.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

1 edit
reply to FTRBRDBND

Click for full size
Magnetic Deviation
said by FTRBRDBND :

I indeed WAS shooting right around 200-203

This brings me to a question about the pointing angles predicted by the modem. Is the Azimuth predicated on true north? or magnetic north? As you can see from the attached map, the difference between magnetic and true in this country can be over 20 degrees. I say this because - if you use a compass - you might need to consider magnetic deviation. If you use an app on a smart phone - it might be a good idea to check the settings, to see if it's displaying magnetic or true.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012

Wyngs

join:2010-02-20
Coos Bay, OR

Took the words right out of my mouth as the magnetic deviation is about 21 degrees over much of the US.



FTRBRDBND

@sbcglobal.net
reply to grohgreg

Mother of god...

True North? Magnetic North? I have no idea, now I wish I did!

That 20 degree deviation is significant and would explain parts of this...

Again, thank you for the feedback!


montana_sat
Premium
join:2005-12-05
Kalispell, MT

If you are using a SmartPhone app for this, you really can't count on them... I have 3 or 4 different apps on my phone and none of them seem to read the same thing, but one will be off 10 degrees, another will be off just a few degrees, and others are way off. I think it depends on the quality of the Compass / GPS mechanism in the SmartPhone as to how reliable it will be. I had a Thunderbolt that seemed to be more accurate than either of my Razr or Razr Maxx models. Same with a magnetic compass... it can be off if as well! GPS Compasses are usually set to True North, but mine you can tell it to show magentic equivilent if you wish to do so! Just food for thought!



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

said by montana_sat:

If you are using a SmartPhone app for this, you really can't count on them...

I have both an iPhone5 and an iPad4, neither is accurate within hands-on distance from the ODU; too much metal. Back off about six feet with a smartphone or tablet. It makes eyeballing the azimuth a little more difficult, but you'll get more consistent (if not more accurate) results.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to FTRBRDBND

said by FTRBRDBND :

Mother of god...

True North? Magnetic North? I have no idea, now I wish I did!

That 20 degree deviation is significant and would explain parts of this...

Again, thank you for the feedback!

You're welcome. Sorry if I was a little harsh with you earlier, it's now clear that Frontier is at fault. Only Hughes or Hughes-authorized training centers can actually certify an individual installer. Unfortunately there are some dealers and resellers who cheap out by only paying for one certification, then shortcut the system with "in-house training" for their employees.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5
reply to grohgreg

said by grohgreg:

This brings me to a question about the pointing angles predicted by the modem. Is the Azimuth predicated on true north? or magnetic north? As you can see from the attached map, the difference between magnetic and true in this country can be over 20 degrees. I say this because - if you use a compass - you might need to consider magnetic deviation. If you use an app on a smart phone - it might be a good idea to check the settings, to see if it's displaying magnetic or true.

//greg//

The modem shows magnetic. I say that with some degree of certainty after many comparisons in different locations. In my earlier post in this thread I was careful to note that I was giving the magnetic values. From Cincinnati both values are (rounded to nearest degree):

Spaceway3: 196 True, 202 Magnetic
ES17: 213 True, 219 Magnetic

Either way I cannot imagine a shot from SW Ohio at 202-203 true or magnetic being ES17, if the value was being correctly displayed.

There are localized variations in this country that can make a compass get downright squirrely.
--
Motosat self-pointing dishes: .74 meter G74 on 127W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|Hughes HN7000S|Verizon UMW190 Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of hnFAP-Alert, PC-OPI and DSSatTool


dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5
reply to grohgreg

Greg, do you know the date of your declination map? I would guess it is old. The US and Canadian services publish new values every 5 years, with tables that estimate the following 5, so I plug those into my own apps like DSLookAngle and DSSatTool whenever new ones come out.

The Map for 2010 (latest full data year) shows the zero line somewhat further west than yours does, and in particular shows NO places in the 48 states with declination of 20 degrees. It can be seen here: »www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/img/Dec···p_US.png
--
Motosat self-pointing dishes: .74 meter G74 on 127W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|Hughes HN7000S|Verizon UMW190 Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of hnFAP-Alert, PC-OPI and DSSatTool



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

1 edit

Don't have a clue Don. Clearly the OP had never seen one, regardless of age. As such, the chart I uploaded was strictly for demonstration purposes. I don't actually use the charts myself. The compass app I use for my iPhone/iPad has mag dev on/off. So I I'm reasonably confident it's using current and updateable data.

//greg//