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tschmidt
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join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
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reply to tmh

Re: Liquid Cooled LED Bulbs

said by tmh :

Seems like snake oil to me.

Why do you say that?

A fluid carries heat away from the die very effectively. The exterior of the bulb has a large surface area allowing heat to radiate and conduct away.

/tom


tmh

@verizon.net

said by tschmidt:

said by tmh :

Seems like snake oil to me.

Why do you say that?

A fluid carries heat away from the die very effectively. The exterior of the bulb has a large surface area allowing heat to radiate and conduct away.

/tom

It is difficult to see from bulb, but the added surface doesn't appear to be very significant.

For example, water cooled CPUs have radiators with an enormous heat transfer surface, plus forced air cooling to boot. I don't see any similar benefit to simply filling the globe with liquid.

TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
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Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel

said by tmh :

It is difficult to see from bulb, but the added surface doesn't appear to be very significant.

For example, water cooled CPUs have radiators with an enormous heat transfer surface, plus forced air cooling to boot. I don't see any similar benefit to simply filling the globe with liquid.

The added surface area is quite significant. In most LED bulbs, it is only the metal base which acts as the heat sink. The outer lens/cover/bulb does not contribute to cooling at all, since it is filled with air, which is a pretty good insulator.

Filling the inside of the clear bulb with liquid allows heat to be conducted to and therefore dissipated through the outer clear bulb.

Also, CPUs generate several times more heat than an LED bulb. The type of CPU that PC enthusiasts watercool with radiators typically dissipate in excess of 100W. Quite often, video cards are also cooled in the same loop and the same radiator, meaning anywhere from 200W to as much as 800W may need to be dissipated, depending on the system.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

Can't we all agree that a LED bulb shouldn't need to be water cooled?



leibold
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join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

I don't think so. Doesn't it make sense to expect a longer useful life from a water cooled LED bulb then a cheaper LED bulb based on the same LEDs (same power) without the added cooling ?
It is heat that kills electronics (both LEDs and their power supply / driver circuits).

I do not expect cheap LED bulbs to perform to expectations and we are already hearing the first reports of early death of LED bulbs.

The only reason for me to be skeptical about these bulbs is that mechanical business of the expansion cylinder. Is this really going to stay sealed over years of in/out motion ? What happens if the bulb starts to loose fluid ? Does the water end up where it is most likely to cause the biggest harm (power supply) ?
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Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

1 recommendation

It's not water. It's liquid silicone. Your point about losing material is valid, but it most likely won't bother the electronics. Potted electrical components are surrounded by silicone.



SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to leibold

it's full of liquid silicone, which dissipates heat from the 10 LEDs (12 LEDs for the 100-watt version). Warmer silicone moves toward the glass exterior, where heat dissipates into the air; as it cools, the silicone drops back toward the bulb's heart. Think of a lava lamp this works basically the same way, said Dave Horn, chief technology officer at SWITCH. You just can't see the gloopy circulation.

»www.switchlightingco.com/lqd.html

I have to go turn on my Lava Lamp (yes, I do have one )
--
--
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by SparkChaser:

Think of a lava lamp this works basically the same way, said Dave Horn, chief technology officer at SWITCH.

And lava lamps don't work upside down.


SparkChaser
Premium
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Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

said by alkizmo:

And lava lamps don't work upside down.

but.... the heat source is in the center of this lamp and the bottom of the lava lamp.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by SparkChaser See Profile
but.... the heat source is in the center of this lamp and the bottom of the lava lamp.

Satisfying explanation.
Thnx


epithy

@comcast.net
reply to Lurch77

In order to have high efficiency and long life, led's must be properly cooled. Even at an efficiency of 80 lumens/watt, the majority of the energy output is heat, concentrated into a small area-the diodes. Without fancy heatsinks and cooling systems, high power led's would lifespans similar to incandescent buls-think 1000 hours or less.

In order to achieve the warm color we're used to for household lighting, leds contain some expensive elements. Until manufacturing processes improve/economies of scale grow you'll see a lot more of these innovative cooling systems to increase lifespan for the value proposition.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by epithy Without fancy heatsinks and cooling systems, high power led's would lifespans similar to incandescent buls-think 1000 hours or less.

Yes but incandescent and CFL lamps are cheap and disposable whereas a over-priced LED represent a substantial cost that most people unless they are very financially secure with an excess of discretionary funds cannot afford to spend their money on.

When Incandescents and CFL's fail just toss them in the trash and replace with another low cost lamp.

That said, I have many other higher priority issues in my life to deal with than to be concerned with a light bulb. The cost of lighting my house is not a big expense so it's not an issue.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Lurch77

Lighting a house might not be a big expense but saving $20-25/month adds up. Do that with 3-4 things and now you're saving $100/month. In business we call this leaning the process. You do a few small initiatives which when added together make a large savings. Right now when I'm working it doesn't matter but if I was on a fixed income or planning to retire I'd be a lot more worried about all those extra pennies.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

1 recommendation

And you get 20$-25$/month savings how?
What lights that cannot be CFL costs so much to run per month?
How many lights is that?
Whats your initial investment?
What's your amortization period?
What are the odds that the LED bulbs would fail before breaking even?
How much past the break even point will the leds last to actual start paying off?



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

said by alkizmo:

And you get 20$-25$/month savings how?
What lights that cannot be CFL costs so much to run per month?
How many lights is that?
Whats your initial investment?
What's your amortization period?
What are the odds that the LED bulbs would fail before breaking even?
How much past the break even point will the leds last to actual start paying off?

Posted in another thread. Feel free to search and find it. This is like the 10th LED thread this year alone.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by Draiman:

Posted in another thread. Feel free to search and find it. This is like the 10th LED thread this year alone.

My point is: It's not that simple. LEDs are only cost efficient in very limited applications, and even then those applications can simply be modified to use lower cost bulbs like CFL.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by alkizmo:

My point is: It's not that simple.

Just leave it at that. The rest of your post is pure opinion. There is a point at which LED are more cost efficient then CFL period. Tons of factors go into getting there though and they are covered in great details in old threads about this.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
Premium
join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC
kudos:4
reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

My point is: It's not that simple. LEDs are only cost efficient in very limited applications, and even then those applications can simply be modified to use lower cost bulbs like CFL.

Not to beat the horse, but. LEDs are a good alternative to CFL for a number of reasons other than cost. CFL's aren't dimmable, aren't supposed to be mounted upside-down, and even with instant-on, still have a ramp-up time to full output. Not to mention the difficulty in finding a color temperature one likes, and that, due to the electronics, seem to have a shorter lifespan than what they should.

I'm not saying LED has all of that beat, but there are reasons other than cost to consider LEDs.


cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
reply to Draiman

said by Draiman:

said by alkizmo:

My point is: It's not that simple.

Just leave it at that. The rest of your post is pure opinion. There is a point at which LED are more cost efficient then CFL period. Tons of factors go into getting there though and they are covered in great details in old threads about this.

Yup.

I like the instant on feature over CFL. However, I did like CFLs in my bathroom as you turn on the vanity lights, and in the early morning, they come on and gradually got brighter. For now, I have decorative halogens (sun's temp) and dimmers.
--
Splat


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Jahntassa

said by Jahntassa:

said by alkizmo:

My point is: It's not that simple. LEDs are only cost efficient in very limited applications, and even then those applications can simply be modified to use lower cost bulbs like CFL.

Not to beat the horse, but. LEDs are a good alternative to CFL for a number of reasons other than cost. CFL's aren't dimmable, aren't supposed to be mounted upside-down, and even with instant-on, still have a ramp-up time to full output. Not to mention the difficulty in finding a color temperature one likes, and that, due to the electronics, seem to have a shorter lifespan than what they should.

I'm not saying LED has all of that beat, but there are reasons other than cost to consider LEDs.

IMO cost is something that prevents LED's from being an alternative except for those with large disposable incomes. The average person does not have that kind of money to invest in them.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit

said by Jack_in_VA:

IMO cost is something that prevents LED's from being an alternative except for those with large disposable incomes. The average person does not have that kind of money to invest in them.

It's more expensive but it's not like we're talking about mutual fund GMGWX which is a $10 million initial investment and most people can't get there if they wanted. LED bulbs are something anyone can buy if they want. The average person can afford them if they want unless you think the average person can't afford to eat out for $10-12 either. I think what prevents people from buying them is the ROI between CFL's and LED's. Most people just don't think long term so a 5 year break even isn't appealing. People want to save $7.50 today instead of $20.00 over the next 15 years. We want instant gratification!!!

*Disclaimer: Numbers are just an example. Actual numbers will vary depending on a lot of factors.*
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IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

I disagree. The family struggling to provide housing, food, clothing, healthcare is not going to have that kind of money available. We in our affluence have lost sight of the conditions most people have in their daily lives.

I can well afford them but I don't intend to buy anything that over-hyped and over-priced.

Right now IMO they are a niche "feel good" product. Nothing more. The price has got to come down dramatically for LED to be anything else.

quote:
A niche market is the subset of the market on which a specific product is focusing. So the market niche defines the specific product features aimed at satisfying specific market needs, as well as the price range, production quality and the demographics that is intended to impact. It is also a small market segment.
A market segment of people with ample income as to be able to discount and ignore the high cost of a product.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Lurch77

By that token CFL's are a niche market since incandescent bulbs are like $.50 compared to the $2.50 CFL compared to the $10-12 LED. Notice how the price jumps up by about the exact same factor.

Average household income in 2011 was $51,413 FYI. Yes some people can't afford it and some can afford it without thinking about it. All we can do is talk about averages or the majority of people.
»usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/ec···033322/1
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Expand your moderator at work


nunya
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O Fallon, MO
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reply to Lurch77

Re: Liquid Cooled LED Bulbs

The problem with LED is people. Consumer grade self ballasted CFL was a horrible stop-gap replacement for incandescent lamps. It didn't start out that way. When they first appeared on the market, many were made in the US of quality materials. That quickly changed when they moved manufacturing to China. Quality went out the window.
I began writing the install date on consumer grade, self ballasted, CFL lamps after noticing a high failure rate. This confirmed my suspicion that the lamps usually failed within 1 year. Not only did they fail, but they often failed spectacularly in what I call a "blaze of glory" (shooting flames emitted from the ballast at the base of the tube).
This was several different brands purchased at several different stores.
Consumer grade CFL's can't give a pleasing color, regardless of what color temperature you buy. The "fade in" is extremely annoying. The "dimmable" lamps are barely dimmable. Let's not forget mercury and disposal issues.

LED's have the potential to be different. I say potential, because we are tracking down the same path as CFL - all made in China junk.
With LED, we lose the mercury toxicity. They dim much better than CFL. They are "instant on". They are able to closely mimic the color output of incandescent lamps.
Back to people being the problem: You have to think of an LED lamp as an appliance, and not just a disposable item. That being said, with all manufacturing moving to China, I can see quality issues being a huge problem for LED. Paying $20 for a lamp, and it only lasting a year or two will really burn people up. I save every LED lamp warranty for myself and my customers.
Example - I just did an install of 21 LED fixtures for a commercial customer last week. They refused to go CFL because of the poor light color. Their lighting load went from 1600W to 300W - A savings of about $850 per year. The lamps will pay off in about 8 months. The entire job will pay off in about 2.5 years.

For those with an open mind, I did the math on this a while back in another thread: »Would you pay $50 for a light bulb?
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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by nunya:

For those with an open mind, I did the math on this a while back in another thread: »Would you pay $50 for a light bulb?

I have an open mind and can well afford it but there's no way I'll ever spend $50 on a light bulb.

I remember doing homework by kerosene lantern so the color of some CFL's doesn't bother me at all. Light is light except the god awful blueish that I see on the LED Christmas lights. Looking at those takes the joy out of looking at the decorations.

bbvax

join:2006-08-01
St Catharines, ON

said by Jack_in_VA:

I remember doing homework by kerosene lantern so the color of some CFL's doesn't bother me at all. Light is light except the god awful blueish that I see on the LED Christmas lights. Looking at those takes the joy out of looking at the decorations.

The flicker of Christmas LED lights is my big gripe. Since I don't see any space for rectifiers in the cord I have a feeling they are half-phase. And even if they were full phase there are certainly no capacitors to smooth it out.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by bbvax:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I remember doing homework by kerosene lantern so the color of some CFL's doesn't bother me at all. Light is light except the god awful blueish that I see on the LED Christmas lights. Looking at those takes the joy out of looking at the decorations.

The flicker of Christmas LED lights is my big gripe. Since I don't see any space for rectifiers in the cord I have a feeling they are half-phase. And even if they were full phase there are certainly no capacitors to smooth it out.

I think the color is awful even without flicker. Cheap Chinese junk.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to Lurch77

Bulbs: *All dimmable so it's apples to apples* (Prices from Home Depot website as of 12/11/2012 1:30 pm DST)
Philips 12.5w LED - $12.97 - 800 lumens / Life: 25,000 hours
EcoSmart 14w CFL 2-pk - $5.97 - 850 lumens / Life: 10,000 hours
Philips 60w 16-pk - $3.97 - 860 lumens / Life: 1,000 hours

Raw cost to lifespan comparison: LED $12.97 = CFL $7.4625 = Incandescent $6.203125

Electric rate: *Rates will increase over time so actual ROI will be faster than shown in this math*
$10.4/Kwh
$17/Kwh
"Between 2005-2010, 49 out of 50 U.S. states experienced an increase in their average cost per watt for electricity. On average over the five years, retail electricity costs in the U.S. increased by 4.1 percent annually. In real dollars, the average cost/kWh increased by a total of 1.8¢ from 2005-2010."
»www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea···-the-u-s

Usage: *Average daily use*
4 hours/day 261 days/year (M-F) - 1,044 hours
4 hours/day 365 days/year - 1,460 hours
8 hours/day 365 days/year - 2,920 hours

LED:
1,044 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,044 * 12.5 = 13,050 / 1,000 = 13.05 * .104 = $1.3572
$17/Kwh = 1,044 * 12.5 = 13,050 / 1,000 = 13.05 * .17 = $2.2185

1,460 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,460 * 12.5 = 18,250 / 1,000 = 18.25 * .104 = $1.898
$17/Kwh = 1,460 * 12.5 = 18,250 / 1,000 = 18.25 * .17 = $3.1025

2,920 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 2,920 * 12.5 = 36,500 / 1,000 = 36.5 * .104 = $3.796
$17/Kwh = 2,920 * 12.5 = 36,500 / 1,000 = 36.5 * .17 = $6.205

CFL:
1,044 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,044 * 14 = 14,616 / 1,000 = 14.616 * .104 = $1.520064
$17/Kwh = 1,044 * 14 = 14,616 / 1,000 = 14.616 * .17 = $2.48472

1,460 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,460 * 14 = 20,440 / 1,000 = 20.44 * .104 = $2.12576
$17/Kwh = 1,460 * 14 = 20,440 / 1,000 = 20.44 * .17 = $3.4748

2,920 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 2,920 * 14 = 40,880 / 1,000 = 40.88 * .104 = $4.25152
$17/Kwh = 2,920 * 14 = 40,880 / 1,000 = 40.88 * .17 = $6.9496

Incandescent:
1,044 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,044 * 60 = 62,640 / 1,000 = 62.64 * .104 = $6.51456
$17/Kwh = 1,044 * 60 = 62,640 / 1,000 = 62.64 * .17 = $10.6488

1,460 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,460 * 60 = 87,600 / 1,000 = 87.6 * .104 = $9.1104
$17/Kwh = 1,460 * 60 = 87,600 / 1,000 = 87.6 * .17 = $14.892

2,920 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 2,920 * 60 = 175,200 / 1,000 = 175.2 * .104 = $18.2208
$17/Kwh = 2,920 * 60 = 175,200 / 1,000 = 175.2 * .17 = $29.784

Power: CFL $6.9496 - LED $6.205 = $0.7446 ($17/Kwh)
Cost: LED $12.97 - CFL $7.4625 = $5.5075
$5.5075 / $0.7446 = ~7 years 5 months to break even / If you take a 20% Kwh increase into account it's ~6 years

Power: CFL $4.25152 - LED $3.796 = $0.45552 ($10.4/Kwh)
Cost: LED $12.97 - CFL $7.4625 = $5.5075
$5.5075 / $0.45552 = ~12 years to break even / If you take a 20% Kwh increase into account it's ~9 years 7 months

As you can see how much you use a light and your power price play a large role in figuring out what's cheapest over a given period of time. If you factor in a 4.1% annual Kwh increase that reduced the ROI by about 20-25%. Anyone can see incandescent are just a money pit while CFL and LED fight for most cost effective spot based on usage/Kwh rate. If the light is hard to access like a 10+ foot ceiling you need to add more cost onto the CFL to account for the man hours to pay someone to replace them 2.5 times more often. Lots of other factors play into it but this is just a basic rundown to get people started.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

I'm paying $115/mo budget plan right now. Paying almost
1/2 of my current electric bill for a light bulb doesn't make any sense at all.

If saving money was really an issue everyone would be buying the "Smart Car" instead of their preferred vehicles. or I could buy 2 Chevrolet Cruz (one for me and one for the wife) for what a Chevrolet Volt costs.