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Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: Liquid Cooled LED Bulbs

said by Jack_in_VA:

IMO cost is something that prevents LED's from being an alternative except for those with large disposable incomes. The average person does not have that kind of money to invest in them.

It's more expensive but it's not like we're talking about mutual fund GMGWX which is a $10 million initial investment and most people can't get there if they wanted. LED bulbs are something anyone can buy if they want. The average person can afford them if they want unless you think the average person can't afford to eat out for $10-12 either. I think what prevents people from buying them is the ROI between CFL's and LED's. Most people just don't think long term so a 5 year break even isn't appealing. People want to save $7.50 today instead of $20.00 over the next 15 years. We want instant gratification!!!

*Disclaimer: Numbers are just an example. Actual numbers will vary depending on a lot of factors.*
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IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
I disagree. The family struggling to provide housing, food, clothing, healthcare is not going to have that kind of money available. We in our affluence have lost sight of the conditions most people have in their daily lives.

I can well afford them but I don't intend to buy anything that over-hyped and over-priced.

Right now IMO they are a niche "feel good" product. Nothing more. The price has got to come down dramatically for LED to be anything else.

quote:
A niche market is the subset of the market on which a specific product is focusing. So the market niche defines the specific product features aimed at satisfying specific market needs, as well as the price range, production quality and the demographics that is intended to impact. It is also a small market segment.
A market segment of people with ample income as to be able to discount and ignore the high cost of a product.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Lurch77
By that token CFL's are a niche market since incandescent bulbs are like $.50 compared to the $2.50 CFL compared to the $10-12 LED. Notice how the price jumps up by about the exact same factor.

Average household income in 2011 was $51,413 FYI. Yes some people can't afford it and some can afford it without thinking about it. All we can do is talk about averages or the majority of people.
»usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/ec···033322/1
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!
Expand your moderator at work


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
reply to Lurch77

Re: Liquid Cooled LED Bulbs

The problem with LED is people. Consumer grade self ballasted CFL was a horrible stop-gap replacement for incandescent lamps. It didn't start out that way. When they first appeared on the market, many were made in the US of quality materials. That quickly changed when they moved manufacturing to China. Quality went out the window.
I began writing the install date on consumer grade, self ballasted, CFL lamps after noticing a high failure rate. This confirmed my suspicion that the lamps usually failed within 1 year. Not only did they fail, but they often failed spectacularly in what I call a "blaze of glory" (shooting flames emitted from the ballast at the base of the tube).
This was several different brands purchased at several different stores.
Consumer grade CFL's can't give a pleasing color, regardless of what color temperature you buy. The "fade in" is extremely annoying. The "dimmable" lamps are barely dimmable. Let's not forget mercury and disposal issues.

LED's have the potential to be different. I say potential, because we are tracking down the same path as CFL - all made in China junk.
With LED, we lose the mercury toxicity. They dim much better than CFL. They are "instant on". They are able to closely mimic the color output of incandescent lamps.
Back to people being the problem: You have to think of an LED lamp as an appliance, and not just a disposable item. That being said, with all manufacturing moving to China, I can see quality issues being a huge problem for LED. Paying $20 for a lamp, and it only lasting a year or two will really burn people up. I save every LED lamp warranty for myself and my customers.
Example - I just did an install of 21 LED fixtures for a commercial customer last week. They refused to go CFL because of the poor light color. Their lighting load went from 1600W to 300W - A savings of about $850 per year. The lamps will pay off in about 8 months. The entire job will pay off in about 2.5 years.

For those with an open mind, I did the math on this a while back in another thread: »Would you pay $50 for a light bulb?
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by nunya:

For those with an open mind, I did the math on this a while back in another thread: »Would you pay $50 for a light bulb?

I have an open mind and can well afford it but there's no way I'll ever spend $50 on a light bulb.

I remember doing homework by kerosene lantern so the color of some CFL's doesn't bother me at all. Light is light except the god awful blueish that I see on the LED Christmas lights. Looking at those takes the joy out of looking at the decorations.

bbvax

join:2006-08-01
St Catharines, ON
said by Jack_in_VA:

I remember doing homework by kerosene lantern so the color of some CFL's doesn't bother me at all. Light is light except the god awful blueish that I see on the LED Christmas lights. Looking at those takes the joy out of looking at the decorations.

The flicker of Christmas LED lights is my big gripe. Since I don't see any space for rectifiers in the cord I have a feeling they are half-phase. And even if they were full phase there are certainly no capacitors to smooth it out.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by bbvax:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I remember doing homework by kerosene lantern so the color of some CFL's doesn't bother me at all. Light is light except the god awful blueish that I see on the LED Christmas lights. Looking at those takes the joy out of looking at the decorations.

The flicker of Christmas LED lights is my big gripe. Since I don't see any space for rectifiers in the cord I have a feeling they are half-phase. And even if they were full phase there are certainly no capacitors to smooth it out.

I think the color is awful even without flicker. Cheap Chinese junk.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to Lurch77
Bulbs: *All dimmable so it's apples to apples* (Prices from Home Depot website as of 12/11/2012 1:30 pm DST)
Philips 12.5w LED - $12.97 - 800 lumens / Life: 25,000 hours
EcoSmart 14w CFL 2-pk - $5.97 - 850 lumens / Life: 10,000 hours
Philips 60w 16-pk - $3.97 - 860 lumens / Life: 1,000 hours

Raw cost to lifespan comparison: LED $12.97 = CFL $7.4625 = Incandescent $6.203125

Electric rate: *Rates will increase over time so actual ROI will be faster than shown in this math*
$10.4/Kwh
$17/Kwh
"Between 2005-2010, 49 out of 50 U.S. states experienced an increase in their average cost per watt for electricity. On average over the five years, retail electricity costs in the U.S. increased by 4.1 percent annually. In real dollars, the average cost/kWh increased by a total of 1.8¢ from 2005-2010."
»www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea···-the-u-s

Usage: *Average daily use*
4 hours/day 261 days/year (M-F) - 1,044 hours
4 hours/day 365 days/year - 1,460 hours
8 hours/day 365 days/year - 2,920 hours

LED:
1,044 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,044 * 12.5 = 13,050 / 1,000 = 13.05 * .104 = $1.3572
$17/Kwh = 1,044 * 12.5 = 13,050 / 1,000 = 13.05 * .17 = $2.2185

1,460 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,460 * 12.5 = 18,250 / 1,000 = 18.25 * .104 = $1.898
$17/Kwh = 1,460 * 12.5 = 18,250 / 1,000 = 18.25 * .17 = $3.1025

2,920 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 2,920 * 12.5 = 36,500 / 1,000 = 36.5 * .104 = $3.796
$17/Kwh = 2,920 * 12.5 = 36,500 / 1,000 = 36.5 * .17 = $6.205

CFL:
1,044 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,044 * 14 = 14,616 / 1,000 = 14.616 * .104 = $1.520064
$17/Kwh = 1,044 * 14 = 14,616 / 1,000 = 14.616 * .17 = $2.48472

1,460 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,460 * 14 = 20,440 / 1,000 = 20.44 * .104 = $2.12576
$17/Kwh = 1,460 * 14 = 20,440 / 1,000 = 20.44 * .17 = $3.4748

2,920 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 2,920 * 14 = 40,880 / 1,000 = 40.88 * .104 = $4.25152
$17/Kwh = 2,920 * 14 = 40,880 / 1,000 = 40.88 * .17 = $6.9496

Incandescent:
1,044 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,044 * 60 = 62,640 / 1,000 = 62.64 * .104 = $6.51456
$17/Kwh = 1,044 * 60 = 62,640 / 1,000 = 62.64 * .17 = $10.6488

1,460 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 1,460 * 60 = 87,600 / 1,000 = 87.6 * .104 = $9.1104
$17/Kwh = 1,460 * 60 = 87,600 / 1,000 = 87.6 * .17 = $14.892

2,920 hours
$10.4/Kwh = 2,920 * 60 = 175,200 / 1,000 = 175.2 * .104 = $18.2208
$17/Kwh = 2,920 * 60 = 175,200 / 1,000 = 175.2 * .17 = $29.784

Power: CFL $6.9496 - LED $6.205 = $0.7446 ($17/Kwh)
Cost: LED $12.97 - CFL $7.4625 = $5.5075
$5.5075 / $0.7446 = ~7 years 5 months to break even / If you take a 20% Kwh increase into account it's ~6 years

Power: CFL $4.25152 - LED $3.796 = $0.45552 ($10.4/Kwh)
Cost: LED $12.97 - CFL $7.4625 = $5.5075
$5.5075 / $0.45552 = ~12 years to break even / If you take a 20% Kwh increase into account it's ~9 years 7 months

As you can see how much you use a light and your power price play a large role in figuring out what's cheapest over a given period of time. If you factor in a 4.1% annual Kwh increase that reduced the ROI by about 20-25%. Anyone can see incandescent are just a money pit while CFL and LED fight for most cost effective spot based on usage/Kwh rate. If the light is hard to access like a 10+ foot ceiling you need to add more cost onto the CFL to account for the man hours to pay someone to replace them 2.5 times more often. Lots of other factors play into it but this is just a basic rundown to get people started.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
I'm paying $115/mo budget plan right now. Paying almost
1/2 of my current electric bill for a light bulb doesn't make any sense at all.

If saving money was really an issue everyone would be buying the "Smart Car" instead of their preferred vehicles. or I could buy 2 Chevrolet Cruz (one for me and one for the wife) for what a Chevrolet Volt costs.

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
said by Jack_in_VA:

I'm paying $115/mo budget plan right now. Paying almost
1/2 of my current electric bill for a light bulb doesn't make any sense at all.

WTH are you talking about 1/2 your bill for a bulb? You are fixated on $50 but that's a mythical price just like your stance. Just leave it alone or say it's not for you but don't make up some mythical excuse. Your dead set against it and that's all you need to say. The truth will set you free!

I checked the Gloucester, VA Home Depot for you on that.

said by Jack_in_VA:

If saving money was really an issue everyone would be buying the "Smart Car" instead of their preferred vehicles. or I could buy 2 Chevrolet Cruz (one for me and one for the wife) for what a Chevrolet Volt costs.

Cars and light bulbs are different subjects completely.


SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:4
I rarely agree with Jack but the price of a 75W Phillips is $40 @ Gloucester, VA Home Depot. That's a third of Jack's bill which to me proves his point for him. Not everyone, we all have different circumstances.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by SparkChaser:

I rarely agree with Jack but the price of a 75W Phillips is $40 @ Gloucester, VA Home Depot. That's a third of Jack's bill which to me proves his point for him. Not everyone, we all have different circumstances.

Thank you Spark. The lengths that some will go to justify the unjustifiable in some cases is amazing.

Most of my lighting 90 percent is CFL that I've had very good luck with. I bought a bunch of them when Dominion Power gave rebates at Home Depot several years ago. Only had 2 failures and they were in table lamps base down. I have some in enclosed ceiling fixtures that are doing fine.

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to SparkChaser
said by SparkChaser:

I rarely agree with Jack but the price of a 75W Phillips is $40 @ Gloucester, VA Home Depot. That's a third of Jack's bill which to me proves his point for him. Not everyone, we all have different circumstances.

The reply was talking about a 60 watt that's $24.97 @ Gloucester, VA Home Depot. It's not a good option for him but a FAR FAR FAR cry from wolf that he's calling. He just needs to play in reality and people won't have to call him out.
Expand your moderator at work


Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara

2 recommendations

reply to Lurch77

Re: Liquid Cooled LED Bulbs

I find it slightly amusing how debates about lighting tech or hot water temperature around here become as heated as any political or religious debate could be expected to be.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by Raphion:

I find it slightly amusing how debates about lighting tech or hot water temperature around here become as heated as any political or religious debate could be expected to be.

How very true Raphion.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Raphion
Once the threads get stupid like this, they generally become useless. Time to bow out.


grobinette
Southeast of disorder
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-27
Springfield, VA
kudos:2
reply to Raphion
You may find it slightly amusing. Sometimes I do but most times I find it annoying.

Anyway, sorry that this became stupid and useless Lurch. I found the reading on the first page interesting.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

1 recommendation

No need to apologize. Arguments are bound to happen when you have a forum full of experts.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

3 edits
reply to Lurch77
Make note the math I posted with a 60 watt comparison was meant to be good for some and bad for others. If I had posted a 40 watt comparison it would be 75-85% in favor of the LED not just 50/50 like the 60 watt. The 40 watt has hit a price point almost everywhere that it wins hands down. In another 8-12 months I'd suspect the 60 watt will crest that point as well. Most people won't start accepting the LED until the 100 watt has hit that point as well.

If you watch for sales you can pick up the 40 watt LED bulbs for around $2 each. I picked up 20 at $1.99 each this year. At this price point nothing can beat an LED period.
"10 10 874340000019 A19 8.6-Watt (40W) LED Light Bulb $1.99 In-Store Pickup/Store #xxxx $19.90"

A place to pick up pretty cheap LED's is from Pharox. That same 60 watt LED from Philips I posted that is $24.97 for others has an alternative for $15.95 from Pharox. The only downside is they can't keep up with demand so are out of stock a lot and you have to sign up to find out when they are in stock. A small price to pay to save though. Their 20 watt LED starts at $4.95.
»www.mypharox.com/store/products/···blu.html
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
I agree the 100 watt will have to come down to around that price but then as nunya said the "cheap Chinese junk" factor will have to be evident.

I don't have any 40 watt bulbs and the only 60 watt are in the bar above our bathroom sink so incandescent and CFL will have to provide my lighting needs. Actually I have no problem with lighting or failures of the incandescent and CFL's.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Lurch77
Unfortunetly people have bigger fish to fry with the "cheap Chinese junk" factor then light bulbs. That stuff is in EVERYTHING we do so no one can really single that out.

For me we have zero lights greater then 90 watts in the entire place. Those 90 watts are floods outside and 75 watt is the largest in active use with 60 watt being the most common. I just see no need to live in a hospital. Again like I said that's another factor that comes into play among MANY MANY factors. People have only touched on a fraction of the factors in this thread.
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IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


printscreen

join:2003-11-01
Juana Diaz, PR
Reviews:
·Choice Cable TV
·Coqui/PRTC
reply to Lurch77
I think that LED lights need to break free of the standard incandescent bulb base and manufascturers should develop a new standard for light fixtures using LED lights. The standard screw base (called Edison something) works perfectly fine for what it was intended - incandescent bulbs - because no control circuit is needed. We are trying to fit a square into a circle with current offerings.

Just like there is a standard (or many similar ones) for regular fluorescent lights where you can purchase a fluorescent light fixture that comes with a ballast and you just buy the right type of tube, there should be some sort of standard where the control and/or ballast is in the fixture and not in the light bulb itself and then use cheaper lights that only have the LED part and any needed simple cooling system.

The standard base also works fine for CFL because they work at high AC voltage and don't need expensive electronics to operate. LED lights work at low DC voltage and require electronics to operate on standard AC power. Put better and more durable electronics in the light fixture and then put the LEDs themselves in easily replaceable parts that don't (and shouldn't) need to be the standard screw base. Then the problem with orientation or position of the lights can be more easily solved.

Of course, this would require replacement of any standard light fixture with the new type but all new builds would implement them and after a number of years they would replace all incandescent fixtures in stores and suppliers.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
said by printscreen:

I think that LED lights need to break free of the standard incandescent bulb base and manufascturers should develop a new standard for light fixtures using LED lights.

I was thinking the same.

All I can find are those strips of LEDs that come with a DC adapter, but those are just for "mood" lighting and I'm dubious about the maintenance factor.

But again, the same can be said about CFL, or more specifically, fluorescent lighting. Go with dedicated ballasts and you'll have better color choices and dimming capacity. Of course those don't apply for night stand lamps and outdoor lighting.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·Comcast Business..
·SONIC.NET
reply to Lurch77
That's great for bulbs that mount upright like that, but since it cools via convection, an inverted mount (think ceiling cans) would mean the heated silicone would stay by the hot LEDs, providing no benefit whatsoever, while a horizontal mount (think ceiling mounted fixtures) would lead to the LEDs on the lower section of the bulb being cooled, while the LEDs on the upper part of the bulb would take on the excess heat produced by those lower LEDs.

If your lighting is comprised exclusively of lamps where the bulbs mount upright, as pictured in the OP, then these are great, I suppose. Otherwise, they're actually designed to overheat themselves. Keep in mind that an inverted or horizontal mount would be losing the benefit of direct air contact, which is where cooling comes from in those installations.