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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Raphion

Re: Liquid Cooled LED Bulbs

said by Raphion:

I find it slightly amusing how debates about lighting tech or hot water temperature around here become as heated as any political or religious debate could be expected to be.

How very true Raphion.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Raphion

Once the threads get stupid like this, they generally become useless. Time to bow out.



grobinette
Southeast of disorder
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-27
Springfield, VA
kudos:1
reply to Raphion

You may find it slightly amusing. Sometimes I do but most times I find it annoying.

Anyway, sorry that this became stupid and useless Lurch. I found the reading on the first page interesting.



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

1 recommendation

No need to apologize. Arguments are bound to happen when you have a forum full of experts.



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

3 edits
reply to Lurch77

Make note the math I posted with a 60 watt comparison was meant to be good for some and bad for others. If I had posted a 40 watt comparison it would be 75-85% in favor of the LED not just 50/50 like the 60 watt. The 40 watt has hit a price point almost everywhere that it wins hands down. In another 8-12 months I'd suspect the 60 watt will crest that point as well. Most people won't start accepting the LED until the 100 watt has hit that point as well.

If you watch for sales you can pick up the 40 watt LED bulbs for around $2 each. I picked up 20 at $1.99 each this year. At this price point nothing can beat an LED period.
"10 10 874340000019 A19 8.6-Watt (40W) LED Light Bulb $1.99 In-Store Pickup/Store #xxxx $19.90"

A place to pick up pretty cheap LED's is from Pharox. That same 60 watt LED from Philips I posted that is $24.97 for others has an alternative for $15.95 from Pharox. The only downside is they can't keep up with demand so are out of stock a lot and you have to sign up to find out when they are in stock. A small price to pay to save though. Their 20 watt LED starts at $4.95.
»www.mypharox.com/store/products/···blu.html
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

I agree the 100 watt will have to come down to around that price but then as nunya said the "cheap Chinese junk" factor will have to be evident.

I don't have any 40 watt bulbs and the only 60 watt are in the bar above our bathroom sink so incandescent and CFL will have to provide my lighting needs. Actually I have no problem with lighting or failures of the incandescent and CFL's.



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Lurch77

Unfortunetly people have bigger fish to fry with the "cheap Chinese junk" factor then light bulbs. That stuff is in EVERYTHING we do so no one can really single that out.

For me we have zero lights greater then 90 watts in the entire place. Those 90 watts are floods outside and 75 watt is the largest in active use with 60 watt being the most common. I just see no need to live in a hospital. Again like I said that's another factor that comes into play among MANY MANY factors. People have only touched on a fraction of the factors in this thread.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!



printscreen

join:2003-11-01
Juana Diaz, PR
Reviews:
·Choice Cable TV
·Coqui/PRTC
reply to Lurch77

I think that LED lights need to break free of the standard incandescent bulb base and manufascturers should develop a new standard for light fixtures using LED lights. The standard screw base (called Edison something) works perfectly fine for what it was intended - incandescent bulbs - because no control circuit is needed. We are trying to fit a square into a circle with current offerings.

Just like there is a standard (or many similar ones) for regular fluorescent lights where you can purchase a fluorescent light fixture that comes with a ballast and you just buy the right type of tube, there should be some sort of standard where the control and/or ballast is in the fixture and not in the light bulb itself and then use cheaper lights that only have the LED part and any needed simple cooling system.

The standard base also works fine for CFL because they work at high AC voltage and don't need expensive electronics to operate. LED lights work at low DC voltage and require electronics to operate on standard AC power. Put better and more durable electronics in the light fixture and then put the LEDs themselves in easily replaceable parts that don't (and shouldn't) need to be the standard screw base. Then the problem with orientation or position of the lights can be more easily solved.

Of course, this would require replacement of any standard light fixture with the new type but all new builds would implement them and after a number of years they would replace all incandescent fixtures in stores and suppliers.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by printscreen:

I think that LED lights need to break free of the standard incandescent bulb base and manufascturers should develop a new standard for light fixtures using LED lights.

I was thinking the same.

All I can find are those strips of LEDs that come with a DC adapter, but those are just for "mood" lighting and I'm dubious about the maintenance factor.

But again, the same can be said about CFL, or more specifically, fluorescent lighting. Go with dedicated ballasts and you'll have better color choices and dimming capacity. Of course those don't apply for night stand lamps and outdoor lighting.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Lurch77

That's great for bulbs that mount upright like that, but since it cools via convection, an inverted mount (think ceiling cans) would mean the heated silicone would stay by the hot LEDs, providing no benefit whatsoever, while a horizontal mount (think ceiling mounted fixtures) would lead to the LEDs on the lower section of the bulb being cooled, while the LEDs on the upper part of the bulb would take on the excess heat produced by those lower LEDs.

If your lighting is comprised exclusively of lamps where the bulbs mount upright, as pictured in the OP, then these are great, I suppose. Otherwise, they're actually designed to overheat themselves. Keep in mind that an inverted or horizontal mount would be losing the benefit of direct air contact, which is where cooling comes from in those installations.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

I raised that issue a page or two back.
Someone said that the heat source is in the center (where you see the LEDs themselves). So it doesn't matter if it's upside down, the convection effect will occur, just less effectively than if the heat source was at the bottom of the bulb and the bulb was upright.


ncbill
Premium
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC
reply to alkizmo

Here's what one can do with non-Edison base LEDs:

»www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho···project!

said by alkizmo:

said by printscreen:

I think that LED lights need to break free of the standard incandescent bulb base and manufascturers should develop a new standard for light fixtures using LED lights.

I was thinking the same.

All I can find are those strips of LEDs that come with a DC adapter, but those are just for "mood" lighting and I'm dubious about the maintenance factor.

But again, the same can be said about CFL, or more specifically, fluorescent lighting. Go with dedicated ballasts and you'll have better color choices and dimming capacity. Of course those don't apply for night stand lamps and outdoor lighting.



BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to alkizmo

Upon first appearances, I thought what I was seeing was a reflection off the glass globe of the bulb. Looking a bit more closely, I do see what you are saying. These bulbs should be fine for inverted mounts.

However, there's still the issue of convection carrying the heat from the lower LEDs up to the upper LEDs in horizontal mount installations. Depending on how the driver circuit is designed, this may also be a non-issue, as the LEDs at the top of the bulb in such an installation aren't really projecting much useful light, so they may not be missed if they burn out. If the driver circuit is designed such that each LED is independent of the others, the net result of such a failure would simply be less electricity used, less heat generated, and less light being "wasted"; if one LED going out ends up taking the entire bulb with it, then this is a fatal flaw for perhaps the most common installation of the incandescent bulbs these are intended to replace.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
reply to ncbill

Not bad for a do it yourself-er, but quite challenging for the average user. The change/challenge is the reason I foresee lights sticking to the Edison base for the foreseeable future.



printscreen

join:2003-11-01
Juana Diaz, PR

That was obviously a custom-built system. However there is nothing to prevent the development and adoption of a system similar to flourescent lights (not CFL) which has been in use for many decades now and is in wide use.


public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
reply to alphapointe

said by alphapointe:

Only if you overdrive the hell out of them, which most mfgrs seem to do...

You can't be serious. A 20W LED will produce about 12W of heat in an area 0.1in x 0.1in.

public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
reply to tschmidt

said by tschmidt:

The LED control circuit is basically a switching power supply. It is pretty efficient. My guess is most of the circuity is located on the back of the multi-LED substrate. The bulk of wasted power is the LEDs themselves, not the control circuit.

LED die material in not compatible with silicon integration. The driver in consumer grade bulbs is a discrete component pcb in the base.
LEDs are about 40% efficient, and heat must be removed from very small volume.
A light weight cooling can either use heat pipes, or ultrasonic spray cooling to transport heat to the heatsink,
Liquid immersion is rather crude.