dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
2921
share rss forum feed

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Lurch77

Re: Fill it with regular or jet fuel?

Actually, it was phased out because cars started coming with catalytic converters. For a time, you could buy either leaded or unleaded gas. Cars with catalytic converters had narrower fuel filler openings (and pumps had narrower nozzles) so you couldn't put leaded gas into a car with a catalytic converter.



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

It won't work with a catalytic converter, as I mentioned. But the cat was not the direct reason it was phased out. The cat was just another part of the Clean Air Act. Pollution and poisoning concerns were the reason.

quote:
Landrigan and his studies played a key role in the government mandate phasing out lead components from gasoline, beginning in 1975, and the federal ban on lead paint in 1978 – culminating in an 88% drop in lead levels in American children by 2005.[10][11]
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_J._···gan#Lead

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Bob4

I remember hearing mentions that when leaded gas was still in use in Japan, children that grew up near some intersection in Tokyo had far higher chances of lead poisoning just from the air.

Naturally looking backwards, I want to ask "What idiot thought mixing a heavy metal into gasoline and then burning it was a bright idea?" But I have to remember when they came up with leaded gas they likely had no clue of the implications
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Lurch77

Except then they would have simply banned leaded gas and, one day, only unleaded would have been available.

But there was a period of a few years where you could buy either. You had to ask, "fill it up, unleaded". And the only reason anyone ever bought unleaded was because their car had a catalytic converter.


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Kearnstd

said by Kearnstd:

Naturally looking backwards, I want to ask "What idiot thought mixing a heavy metal into gasoline and then burning it was a bright idea?"

Hey, we walked around behind lawnmowers burning leaded gas for hours, and we all survived.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

Except then they would have simply banned leaded gas and, one day, only unleaded would have been available.

That isn't how it works. Just like refrigerants, they phase them out. They don't just stop them. The economy and industry cannot handle cold turkey.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

I was alive and buying gas in 1975, so I know what happened.

quote:
1972 — Feb 22 — EPA announces that all gasoline stations will be required to carry “non-leaded” gasoline in the future to protect catalytic converters (which reduce other auto exhausts such as carbon monoxide). EPA asked the Dept. of Health Education and Welfare (HEW) “to provide a health basis for the planned reduction…” But HEW “informed EPA that they could not support the reduciton of lead in gasoline for reasons of adverse health effects since no medical or scientific data were available to indicate that it was a hazard to health.” EPA delays setting standards until 1973, then is sued by Ethyl Corp.

1974 — May 7 – 8 — Hearings before the Panel on Environmental Science and Technology of the Subcommittee on Environmental Pollution of the Committee on Public Works. Sen. Joe Biden (D-Del) calls for “a panel of medical scientists having expertise in the field” to perform a literature review, but concludes: “In my opinion, lead from auto emissions does not constitute a public health hazard.”

»66.147.244.135/~enviror4/about/e···imeline/
Note that unleaded gasoline was banned (to protect catalytic converters) before it was proven that lead in auto emissions was bad.


dandeman
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-05
Chapel Hill, NC
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4 See Profile
Hey, we walked around behind lawnmowers burning leaded gas for hours, and we all survived.[/BQUOTE :

Naw you didn't.. Those affected by it are not aware of the symptoms!

In jest!


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

I remember my high school physics teacher (Henry Fischer) saying that using leaded gasoline in a lawn mower was bad, and thinking, "I use leaded gasoline all the time, it seems OK to me".



boogi man

join:2001-11-13
Jacksonville, FL
kudos:1
reply to Bob4

as i understand it the lead also worked to help as lubricant for valve seats. the solution for the unleaded fuel was/is hardened valve seats. i remember in yesteryear when looking for heads to work on for my sbc i wanted to have '73+ or if i got older ones i just knew i was going to have them machined for hardened seats.
--
my site



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

1 recommendation

reply to Bob4

We'll just have to disagree then. You were alive and buying leaded gasoline, so I can understand your IQ being dropped a bit. I'm just kidding, hope you can take a joke.

I've provided a link with source stating the environmental reasons for phasing it out. Here is more. But we've gotten too far off topic now. You can disgree with me, and I'll leave it at that.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#T···thyllead



TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
kudos:2
Reviews:
·HughesNet Satell..
·WesTex Connect

1 edit
reply to Bob4

Haha, Jay Leno just mentioned this on his show.

Does anyone know if it was actual Jet Fuel for turbine jet engines or was it AVGas which is for piston powered prop aircraft?

I once considered buying some 100LL AvGas from the local municipal airport for my turbocharged cat-less project car to be able to crank up the turbo boost.

--
CompTIA Network+ Certified


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

See this post - »Re: Fill it with regular or jet fuel?



TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
kudos:2
Reviews:
·HughesNet Satell..
·WesTex Connect

said by Bob4:

See this post - »Re: Fill it with regular or jet fuel?

Cool, my cat-less car would run that just fine. The other one might damage a $1000 CAT.
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified

rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
Reviews:
·Comcast

4 edits
reply to Bob4

Im pretty sure the main reason for lead was to cool the valves. After lead was removed sodium filled valves were standard which meant you no longer needed lead in the gas. Also helped with anti knocking and things like that but bottom line it was there for good reasons at the time. Bottom line lead went sodium filled valves and cats came. without checking i believe we are talking somewhere around 71 72 when unleaded was becoming standard. Could be wrong but i dont think cats came till around 74. I think reignators were first tho and probably misspelled that anyway. Im thinking air pumps were introduced around 72 also. Look up the horsepower of say a 1971 302 with two barrel carb. it comes in at 210 horsepower. Look up the horsepower of a 1972 302 2 barrel and it comes in at 140 horse. Thank you unleaded gas for that. Bottom line that lead made us run faster with higher compression engines something that back than was a big deal.



aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1

The main reason for lead was octane boosting. As an aside, lead also acted as a lubricant for the valves, but that was just a beneficial side effect.

As for the horsepower change -- at some point in the '70s, the HP rating changed from engine HP to HP at the wheel.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


Beezel

join:2008-12-15
Las Vegas, NV

said by aurgathor:

The main reason for lead was octane boosting. As an aside, lead also acted as a lubricant for the valves, but that was just a beneficial side effect.

As for the horsepower change -- at some point in the '70s, the HP rating changed from engine HP to HP at the wheel.

Also you can thank the insurance companies for the HP decrease. They made premiums go higher after certain levels.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

said by aurgathor:

The main reason for lead was octane boosting. As an aside, lead also acted as a lubricant for the valves, but that was just a beneficial side effect.

As for the horsepower change -- at some point in the '70s, the HP rating changed from engine HP to HP at the wheel.

Is that what they mean by "Brake Horsepower" as in how much it takes to drive with the brakes on or something?
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

With brake horsepower, they did a calculation to subtracted the losses cause by essential stuff like the water pump, alternator, transmission, etc. So the brake horsepower was much greater than what could be delivered to the wheels.


rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
Reviews:
·Comcast

3 edits
reply to Kearnstd

It was 71 to 72 when the change was made. I had the 71 comet gt and my buddy had the 72. Same car, same engine mine was rated 210 horse his was rated 140. Use to go to a local track. Not even close i blew his doors in every time. Dynomometers were invented in the 80s making the calculations easier. But in real world you can expect from 13 to 25 percent loss from crank to wheel. Depending on the drive line. More than just crank to wheel was done in that time.

Expand your moderator at work


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Beezel

Re: Fill it with regular or jet fuel?

said by Beezel:

Also you can thank the insurance companies for the HP decrease. They made premiums go higher after certain levels.

I kinda doubt that was the reason. It was the emission requirements. Not sure exactly which year, but during that time emission requirements started appearing, and it had a very significant effect on the performance and reliability of the engines. Probably the worse years were '73 - '75 -- miles of vacuum hoses, for one.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to cowboyro

said by cowboyro:

said by Kearnstd:

I wonder what would happen if a gas station got true AvGas, that 100+ octane gasoline used in something like a cessna as I know those are piston engines with spark plugs so guessing they just use very high octane gasoline.

Realistically nothing besides maybe shortening the life of the emission systems.
High octane fuel only has better resistance to self-detonation by compression. It does not provide more power or better gas mileage, contrary to the popular belief. However high compression engines *require* high octane gas, as regular gas may detonate prematurely.

Also high oct fuels in engines not meant for it will give off more CO as the combustion will be less complete (unless the engine is tuned to make use of it.)
--
»Death Star Petition


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to Kearnstd

said by Kearnstd:

I remember hearing mentions that when leaded gas was still in use in Japan, children that grew up near some intersection in Tokyo had far higher chances of lead poisoning just from the air.

Naturally looking backwards, I want to ask "What idiot thought mixing a heavy metal into gasoline and then burning it was a bright idea?" But I have to remember when they came up with leaded gas they likely had no clue of the implications

There's an ep of "Dark Matters: twisted but true" about it.
The inventor was one of the first to suffer, he was NUTS, even after suffering and knowing it was due to his invention of TEL he once poured TEL right on his hands.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Matte···But_True
Season 2 ep 9
--
»Death Star Petition


OmenQ
Spazz
Premium
join:2003-03-21
Continuum

There's also a good Damn Interesting article about it.
»www.damninteresting.com/the-ethy···more-932
--
Cogito Ergo Nom