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UK_Dave
join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON

UK_Dave to analog andy

Member

to analog andy

Re: Blog - Copyright Infringement Lawsuit

Thanks Andy.

I wonder if they'd publish comments against their stance on their website.

Just like we allow that here.

You know what - that's the difference between them and us.
UK_Dave

UK_Dave

Member

Just posted the following on the site:

Sir,

With all due respect to your business model, I would like to ask the following questions:

1. Do you believe Voltage will be looking to take these people to court? Or is it an exercise in speculative invoicing?

2. How do you think Voltage reconciles those actions to pursue such claims, when they cannot reconcile IP addresses to the people responsible?

3. Finally - do you have an opinion as to whether the privacy issues this raises outweighs the very limited non-commercial revenue being sought?

I'd be interested in your thoughts - especially given your website demonisers downloaders, downloaders that are currently legal in Canadian Law.

----------------------------

Wonder if they let any debate take place there. I posted with the same name as here. So fellas, if you want to come and talk, I told you - you know where I am.

Dave

joe1967
@bell.ca

joe1967 to TSI Marc

Anon

to TSI Marc
Hey folks, I've got a quick question for ya'll. I have been keenly following these two topics on here for the last two days, trying to make sense of everything, but since I am not as knowledgeable in this department as many of you bright folks are, I thought I clear this up.

From what I understand, if Voltage is successful in obtaining a court order to force Teksavvy in handing over the personal information of those alleged, will that decision mean that it's all over? There is no more fighting left to do? That the can of worms has finally been opened in Canada, so to speak. As I understand, once Voltage has the personal information linked to the IPs of those alleged, they pretty much won their case - suing those alleged, extortion, etc.

This is actually a very interesting topic and I have learned a lot in the past two days, lots of smart folks on here.

TS_User
@teksavvy.com

TS_User to TSI Marc

Anon

to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:

said by sgould:

Marc: your own clients are asking why there was no attempt to mount a legal defense.

Let's cut to the chase here: IF on monday the judge allows a delay, will Teksavvy mount a serious legal defense for its clients or not

Your own clients are now questioning why Teksavvy isnt even trying. After the delay is approved, there is either Teksavvy will mount one or it will not after Monday???

Verizon in the USA did. Why wont you guys?

If the answer is no, then a lot of your own customers will be asking what happened to the teksavvy that fought for the little guys. Teksavvy for a long while played the angle that it cared about its clients, and are not like Bell or Rogers, or Videotron. The actions of Teksavvy as a company in the next few days will show everyone what Teksavvy really is about.

PR aside, people are looking at action, not what is said.

No. We do not endorse Copyright infringment. It's agasint the law. This is not a small guy thing. It's a - it's against the law thing!!!!!

If anybody here can show me that a massive amount of errors has been made (or any error in fact) in the evidence that Canipre has presented, please contact me. I *will* gladly look at that very carefully.

Veizon is doing that after getting a massive flood of these requests. Here, it's literally the first one of any size!! I can't point to any past history of theirs here.. there's no track record of shoddy data...

Let me be clear here. TekSavvy has *never* endorsed illegal activity. We have never done anything like that. The laws here are clear.

Marc - I can't show you what their error was, but I know there's been an error. I am on the list (apparently, unless I'm one of hte mistaken ones) as sharing a specific movie at a specific time. I have never heard of the movie, was at work 80km away when they say it happened, with my only my wife, 4 year old son and 5 month old daughter at home at the time.

I don't know if it's possible that someone hacked into my network and was downloading/seeding this movie through my IP, or whether it's a mistaken identity on your part or a mistake on their part, but I know what happened in my house, and we did not do what they're saying.

I'm not sure what I'm asking you - I will hire a lawyer and I will fight this even though it won't be cheap. But I did want to let you know that there are some mistakes somewhere in this process. You said if anyone can show you any error. I can't show you the mistake, but I can tell you there is one. I'm likely not the only one in this boat.
funny0
join:2010-12-22

funny0 to UK_Dave

Member

to UK_Dave
said by UK_Dave:

Because the bit torrent case is about people UPLOADING.

Downloading is legal, uploading isn't - broadly speaking.

WRONG downloading is now illegal BUT i'll quote the RCMP
"they won't go after non commercial file sharing"
ergo they want to target counterfeiting and people ripping people off making money off others stuff...
funny0

funny0 to UK_Dave

Member

to UK_Dave
said by UK_Dave:

From what you are saying, you will not challenge the merit's of Voltages evidence/case, but you do seem to be already convicting your own clients by what you say. Nothing has been proven yet, but you seem to assume guilt. Is that the case?
----------------------

S15. Teksavvy put up a fight today. Check the twitter feed for the history.

I'm still formulating this - but there is a magic window forming in my mind. Remember the new laws help grant ISP immunity. But of course, not for events prior to the deadline - what was that - November 7th?

Cases before that still allow for ISP liability. If I were Marc, I'd be focussing on that before all other concerns. And if I were him, I wouldn't be here answering questions like "Do you feel your customers are guilty?".

And you know what, it would kill me. I'm sure it's hurt him like hell because he believes in what he's doing. It's already cost him a load of cash I'm sure - and right now we don't even know how much he will be compensated for doing their dirty work under pressure. That is still to be determined.

Canipre have learned from the last defeat, built a software product, and have come back with guns blazing. They are confident. All they want to make their money, is disclosure.

We can come up with huge reasons why if "we" were in court, we'd shout it down. But right now, all this lot want is names and addresses.

They are asking the court to provide them with a list of people to target with speculative invoices.

I'm glad to see people preparing defences. Raising awareness. Raising money. Improving education. That's the time Marc earned for us.

lol so confident they cant understand what the diffferance between 10K per each commercial infringement ergo counterfeiting and 5K FOR ALL INFRINGEMENTS for non commercial....ya that's showing smarts...
funny0

funny0 to joe1967

Member

to joe1967
said by joe1967 :

Hey folks, I've got a quick question for ya'll. I have been keenly following these two topics on here for the last two days, trying to make sense of everything, but since I am not as knowledgeable in this department as many of you bright folks are, I thought I clear this up.

From what I understand, if Voltage is successful in obtaining a court order to force Teksavvy in handing over the personal information of those alleged, will that decision mean that it's all over? There is no more fighting left to do? That the can of worms has finally been opened in Canada, so to speak. As I understand, once Voltage has the personal information linked to the IPs of those alleged, they pretty much won their case - suing those alleged, extortion, etc.

This is actually a very interesting topic and I have learned a lot in the past two days, lots of smart folks on here.

this is a hearing to hand over identities NOT the end trial...
i seriously doubt they will proceed myself just based on what the statement of claim is trying to say because ( and im not a lawyer ) no commercial gain can be said form just an ip address or having your name and address....
jonny7
join:2008-09-22
Sault Ste Marie, ON

jonny7 to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Hi Marc

Great updates on latest status of the lawsuit. I hope all goes well with TekSavvy. You guys are great!

I wanted to ask you how a Landlord who provides TekSavvy internet to customers would protect them selves?

Also how should a tenant protect them selves as well?
Thank you in advance.

j
UK_Dave
join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON

UK_Dave to joe1967

Member

to joe1967
Hi Joe.

If the court orders the addresses and personal details turned over - TSI will have to do it. There is a world of pain out there if they got involved in anything. else. at. all. Put it this way, there's been talk of accidental server crashes and the rest of it - but if that happened even accidentally right now - there would be huge grief.

Once that happens, a couple of thousand people will receive letters threatening fines unless they settle. It is my opinion that this is the purpose. There will never be court cases, because those who choose to stand and fight will be left alone.

This will prey on a % of the population, and relies on them paying up without a day in court.

The almost impossible task for Marc, is how the hell does he defend this when Voltage have learned from the last failure, and come back with their new method that they hope will persuade the court to force Tek to disclose.

I'm still looking for clarification like we all are, but I'm wondering if fighting this disclosure makes TSI a lot more liable than if they "roll over" and let a University organisation like CIPPIC take up the fight.

On a seperate subject - is there anyone on the software side of things who can pull some LEGAL strings and get me something on the software used to gather the IP addresses in the first place.

Cheers,
Dave
racer123
join:2012-12-14
Hamilton, ON

1 edit

racer123 to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Marc can attack this head on, quite simply, and I've stated it before.

Attack and destroy the credibility of the Affidavit which supports the motion. Without it the motion has no strength or merit or grounds. Blow holes through it.

To start, Canipre is touted as the forensic investigation company. Canipre is not a licensed or registered private investigator under the law in Ontario. Barry Logan is the sworn "Owner" and "Principal Forensic Consultant" to Canipre. Canipre is the retained (hired) agent by Voltage.

What is the difference between an individual sneaking around the internet looking for personal information and Identifiers on individuals, regardless of end intent, if one is or is not a properly licensed investigator? Its criminal, that's the difference. And his affidavit has no credibility.

Private Security and Investigative Services Act, 2005
business entity” includes a corporation, partnership or sole proprietorship; (“entreprise”)

“employee” includes a person, whether or not employed under a contract of employment, who performs work or services for another person for remuneration on such conditions that he or she is in a position of economic dependence upon, and under an obligation to perform duties for, that person more closely resembling the relationship of an employee than that of an independent contractor; (“employé”)

“licensee” means an individual or business entity that holds a licence under this Act, and “licensed” has a corresponding meaning; (“titulaire de permis”)

Private investigators
(2) A private investigator is a person who performs work, for remuneration, that consists primarily of conducting investigations in order to provide information. 2005, c. 34, s. 2 (2).

Soliciting or procuring services
(6) A person who performs work, for remuneration, that consists primarily of acting for or aiding others in soliciting or procuring the services of a private investigator or security guard shall be deemed to be in the business of selling private investigator or security guard services. 2005, c. 34, s. 2 (6).

PROHIBITIONS
Individual licence
6. No person shall act as a private investigator or a security guard or hold himself or herself out as one unless the person holds the appropriate licence under this Act and,

(a) is employed by a licensed business entity, a registered employer under section 5, or an employer that is not required to be registered; or

(b) is the sole proprietor of a licensed business entity or is a partner in a licensed business entity. 2005, c. 34, s. 6.

Penalties
Individuals
45. (1) Every individual convicted of an offence under this Act is liable to a fine of not more than $25,000, imprisonment for a term of not more than one year, or both. 2005, c. 34, s. 45 (1).

Business entity
(2) Every business entity convicted of an offence under this Act is liable to a fine of not more than $250,000. 2005, c. 34, s. 45 (2).

»www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/ ··· list.asp

I've called and confirmed that Canipre and Canipre Inc are not licensed or registered agents or businesses respectively. Logan on the other hand, I need his personal DOB and address........
Expand your moderator at work

A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium Member
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

A Lurker to racer123

Premium Member

to racer123

Re: Blog - Copyright Infringement Lawsuit

said by racer123:

I've called and confirmed that Canipre and Canipre Inc are not licensed or registered agents or businesses respectively. Logan on the other hand, I need his personal DOB and address........

Without having that info I'd guess maybe. LinkedIn for him lists under education:

Canadore College of Applied Arts & Technology
Law & Security Administration
1990 – 1992

The Canadian Private Investigators' Resource Centre lists that course as training.
»www.cpirc.com/training.html

hm
@videotron.ca

hm to jonny7

Anon

to jonny7
said by jonny7:

Hi Marc

Great updates on latest status of the lawsuit. I hope all goes well with TekSavvy. You guys are great!

I wanted to ask you how a Landlord who provides TekSavvy internet to customers would protect them selves?

Also how should a tenant protect them selves as well?
Thank you in advance.

j

You can't protect them with the way things are now. They can't even protect themselves.

Best option is to cut them off and make them buy their own internet.
UK_Dave
join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON

UK_Dave to funny0

Member

to funny0
WRONG downloading is now illegal BUT i'll quote the RCMP
"they won't go after non commercial file sharing"
-------------------------

Please show me your sources.

I believe you are wrong.

The RCMP quote is in relation to FILE SHARING, not downloading. In fact you even say that in your own quote.

Downloading, without sharing, is still legal.
UK_Dave

1 edit

UK_Dave

Member

Well, fair play to the guy - he's happy to discuss things:

Dave
UK_Dave

UK_Dave to funny0

Member

to funny0
lol so confident they cant understand what the diffferance between 10K per each commercial infringement ergo counterfeiting and 5K FOR ALL INFRINGEMENTS for non commercial....ya that's showing smarts...
----------------------

Are you confident that saying "they can't prove it's commercial" to a judge this morning would have led to dismissal?

Care to put your life's work on the line? Care to make a sizeable bet with me?

Because Voltage's lawyers would simply declare they need disclosure to proceed and prove. At which point, boom. Disclosure.
Expand your moderator at work
UK_Dave

1 edit

UK_Dave

Member

Re: Blog - Copyright Infringement Lawsuit

He let my comment through and its up for discussion. Come on over.

For some reason I can't post the site address here on DSLR - but you know which one it is... copyrightenforcement

look for the TSI case.

Please, for all of us - keep it factual, researched, professional, and without threats of violence! We are trying to defeat a stereotype, not live up to it.

Cheers
Dave
Tong
join:2012-12-11
r3t 38x

Tong

Member

I was reading the post. In the post, there is a mentioning that TekSavvy told the people through E-mail that they can't throw out their system, format their HD because court might need to check them?

From what I understand, they can only ask someone to do that when there is a warrant or subpoena. Without them, people can do whatever they want. Because someone might have brought motion to you (Even they can't prove is you), can they ask or demand you to do that? I'm just wondering what is that all about?
racer123
join:2012-12-14
Hamilton, ON

racer123 to A Lurker

Member

to A Lurker
quote:
Without having that info I'd guess maybe. LinkedIn for him lists under education:

Canadore College of Applied Arts & Technology
Law & Security Administration
1990 – 1992

The Canadian Private Investigators' Resource Centre lists that course as training.
»www.cpirc.com/training.html
Oh, I concluded that Logan himself used to be a private investigator. This much we can come to, him having worked for King Reed and Associates years ago.

Think about persons and corporations or businesses as seperate things.

If an individual has a PI license, and owns a company which sells PI services, the individual would be working legally, but the company would not be, because the company is not registered or licensed as a PI as a business or an agency.

And Logan is might be the slimiest crooked investigator out there. Read his thoughts about interogation (by a private investigator at that!)
»www.cosmicscribbler.com/ ··· liar.htm
Read under Keep the Heat High and his quotes on his techniques. He's a slime ball if I ever saw one.
UK_Dave
join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON

UK_Dave to Tong

Member

to Tong
Not having ever received one of the letters in question, I don't know.

But he did seem to be suggesting that when he said there is a 70% correlation between IP addresses and people, based on submitted hard drives.

I've asked hm for sources, he's going to look - but as you probably saw from my last post - he's got to be talking massive commercial infringement and duplication.

Anton Pillar orders are hard to get. They wouldnt be given for domestic addresses on the basis of no other evidence than an IP.
Fuzzy285
join:2012-12-12

Fuzzy285 to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Here's an interesting read:

»blog.ayrlaw.com/blog/201 ··· tration/

Apparently, under U.S. law, if the copyright is not registered, you have to prove actual damages and cannot rely on statutory damages. I just checked in the CIPO (Canadian Intellectual Property Office) database and lo and behold, copyright on several of the titles in Voltage's claim, if not all, is NOT registered in Canada. Does anyone know what the cross-jurisdiction implications are? I read somewhere that they are trying to harmonize copyright across nations that are subscribers to the WIPO treaties, but one would think that since registration is a key requirement for statutory damages in some jurisdictions, it would carry over, especially since statutory damages are jurisdiction dependent.
racer123
join:2012-12-14
Hamilton, ON

1 edit

racer123 to UK_Dave

Member

to UK_Dave
@UK_Dave

Yeah, I saw he is conversing. That's a good thing.

It's unfortunate he's quite one sided. But, his likely relationship with Canipre and Logan would indicate such.

I don't know what he is meaning of " intimations and personal intimidation". Maybe something is occuring on or about another forum or chat?

As for obtaining Anton Piller orders for the hard drives or PC's of private individuals, on the evidence in the affidavit provided so far - fat chance of that happening.

Fact is, the IP addresses were likely obtained by hopping onto Bittorrent, checking some files that were being downloaded, and recording the IP addresses in bulk. This initial search was completed over a course of a year or months, as the STI IP's would need to be gleaned from the overall mass search of IP addresses.

Then, the lawyers wrote the rest up that files were confirmed individually downloaded from each of the IP addresses, and each then confirmed for functionality, then each movie verified in a side by side viewing with an original control copy.
Logan doesn't have enough money to buy the hardware, properly licensed and educated staff, internet fibre connection contract, in order to complete such a task in around a 45 day window to analyze 60 days and 2300 occurences collected. Thats 144 days straight of non stop 24/7 movie comparisons. Let alone aquiring the data during the supposed 60 day period, weeding it from non TSI IP addresses, then attacking the TSI IP addresses only. Not impossible, but so expensive, difficult, improbable that it might as well be impossible.

Then there is the matter of using a third party software to do all the alleged work, all the data processing, etc etc, to which he is not educated, nor a designer or programmer of. Heresay anyone?

The affidavit is a fabrication, in whole or in part.
analog andy
join:2005-01-03
Surrey, BC

1 recommendation

analog andy

Member

said by racer123:

@UK_Dave

Then, the lawyers wrote the rest up that files were confirmed individually downloaded from each of the IP addresses, and each then confirmed for functionality, then each movie verified in a side by side viewing with an original control copy.

I believe it was mentioned through Canpire that they downloaded a bit from all IP's and then they go one complete file from all IP not a complete file from each IP.

Also don't know how much if matters but Canpire in not an impartial third party but part of the copyright troll circle. Seems they would gain financially to make sure someone got tracked and busted. Seems like a phishing expedition for monetary value. How do we know they didn't seed the original torrent.

hm
@videotron.ca

hm to hm

Anon

to hm
I keep thinking back to this "landlord" anaolgy and find myself saying... What if...

What if someone were to setup a website where the rules of the show is:
1. Each party must pay a teksavvy account 1 year in advance, like one of those "gift card" type things.

2. People swap their "gift card" with someone in another province.

In effect Joe Blow from Ontario is having his internet account paid for by Pierre Poutine in Quebec.

In other words, the account receivable in the TSI system for the Ontario customer is in Quebec, and vice-versa.

So any so called infringement can never, ever, had been done by the person paying the IP.

Or, to put it another way (or another method of doing this) as an example:
Why don't I set up the website, AnonTronTrollrUS.ca I take the money for people and pay their account and act as an intermediary. The billing would come to me, and the bill-to address would be me. I would never know anything else, other than a transaction.

As far as I know they ask the courts for the bill-to person (ie the accounts receivable). Teksavvy has no other name on file as owning the account. Thus a name could never be given, and I could never have had any of those IP's since I don't even have a teksavvy internet myself.

So in effect, if a troll like voltage ever wetn after someone they would have to go after a whole address. So this would in turn make an IP an street address (HEH) and not a person. Now go ahead and show which person did it.

Anyone see a hole in this?

Things that make me go hmm...
hm

hm to Tong

Anon

to Tong
said by Tong:

I was reading the post. In the post, there is a mentioning that TekSavvy told the people through E-mail that they can't throw out their system, format their HD because court might need to check them?

And the question is, Which system can't they touch "or tamper with"?

I mean I'm just a normal family of 4. I have 6 computers here. The geeks here have 10.

Does teksavvy ask that the "account holder" not delete or wipe the account holders own computer? Or his wifes and kids computers as well?

Also who would pay for the forensics of a family of 4 hard disks? 6 computers could equal 10 hard-disks.

Also, that is a shit load of private information on disks like that. The wifes affair, the husbands mistresses names, what venereal diseases they may have, a kids suicidal thoughts, perverted thoughts, gay porn history, passwords to websites, passwords to emails, passwords to facebook, Bot passwords on IRC, passwords to gay porn sites, on and on and on and on.

In addition to the above, it could possibly show someone downloaded 0day warez, all top 100 IMDB movies that they never would have bought to begin with, loads of porn titles, on and on and on and on.

hmm

So is a family of 4 really expected not to touch anything on all 6 computers?

Also, once voltage and canipre gets those IP's I would expect voltage and canipre to build a history on these people. a search for every occurrence of a certain IP, setting up their canipre software to log all instances of that IP being found on torrent again (to show habitual use) on and on and on and on, even though it could be 6 different people...

hmm...

People here better learn how to spoof real quick.
abcjak
join:2012-12-18

abcjak to kabes

Member

to kabes
said by kabes:

A million people? 1/30th of the population? Good luck having the courts handle that.

there are geographical maps plotting average household incomes and property values. AFter getting the list of people, it's easy to map out the addresses and send out letters accordingly. Without a doubt, they will target more middle/higher income neighborhoods stay out of most welfare townhouse rows.
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MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to ehh

Premium Member

to ehh

Re: Blog - Copyright Infringement Lawsuit

said by ehh :

In the lawsuit papers it states the so-called forensic company used on "GuardaLey" monitoring program to conduct its examination of the 2000 ips. Lots of interesting info about this

»torrentfreak.com/evidenc ··· -110824/

The Court should require that GuardaLey deposit their source code with the court so that it can be inspected by every defendant as to what it does & how it works.

There should be a complete disclosure of the the financial relationships between GuardaLey, Canipre, & Voltage.
HammerofGawd
join:2012-06-30
23332

HammerofGawd to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Faaaarrr too many holes in this gangsterism ... just need someone with legalize and time/resources to stand up to these thugs.