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sssscary

join:2007-10-23
Brockville, ON

1 edit

IP logging retention

Hi, i was reading in the teksavvy thread about the request for user information for possible filesharing lawsuits. Teksavvy apparently retains logs for 90 days of which user has which IP addresses. Can you tell me what Start's policy on this logging is?


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
We currently keep 1 year of logs for billing dispute purposes although we are working towards a system where we simply roll up those stats at which point the IP's are no longer required. I believe there are some minimum retention requirements under the new legislation, although I have yet to see a request from a rights holder that had a date older than a week.

sssscary

join:2007-10-23
Brockville, ON
Thanks, it is good to know what the policies are.

Toastertech
Premium
join:2003-01-05
Canada
reply to rocca
Rocca, just a small question if you are currently retaining logs due to possible billing disputes, which I can understand with regards to accounts with caps, are you also retaining the same logs on unlimited accounts as the stated reason should not apply.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
Yes, the system that does logging is not aware of what type of packages are reflected on the retail side.


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
Is it not possible to include some syntax in your terms of service that limit the length of time a user can dispute billing?

In light of everything that is going on with Teksavvy, how can you possibly justify keeping 1 year of logs? It's only a matter of time before you get dragged into this mess, and you're sitting on the mother of all troll payloads.

Seriously.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
I have yet to see a copyright request come in that is for data older than a week or two so it doesn't really matter if the logs are 3 months or 3 years. I think you'll find that most ISP's have at least a year of this data kicking around so it's not like we're some specific target. That said I've already committed to shortening up the time frame but it's going to take more than a few days to implement this sort of change. To date we have never once provided subscriber information to a copyright request.


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Start Communicat..
have you read this Forbes story about Sonic.net and their logging policy rocca?

»www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenbe···uld-too/


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
Yes I have.

Who7

join:2012-12-18
Hi Rocca,

I am in your territory.

I have poured $12,000 into Rogers and recently I switched. I will switch again. Here's is the deal, you respect my privacy by not providing the means to the trolling industry, I am your customer within the month.

Signed.

Real Customer.

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to rocca
We currently keep 1 year of logs for billing dispute purposes although we are working towards a system where we simply roll up those stats at which point the IP's are no longer required. I believe there are some minimum retention requirements under the new legislation, although I have yet to see a request from a rights holder that had a date older than a week.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you don't keep logs longer then a day, it means nothing. By the time you get a request, you already purged your data.

I asked my lawyer that I was talking to in an unrelated matter and he asked his friend who specializes in this. According to the shark who talked to another shark, there is no legal requirement for log retention other then a court order.

Are you saying that there is? Please be specific.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
Section 41.26 stipulates what information we must provide and fines per incident of non-compliance at $10,000 and section 42 says that we can be charged $1,000,000 and 5 years in jail if guilty of commercial infraction.

As I've stated we are looking at how to reduce the period but legal has to get involved. Additionally it's important to realize that the cable networks have their own logs and retention policies outside of our control.

We are all for customer privacy but we aren't above the law.


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
My understanding was that sections 41.25, 41.26 and 41.27 were not part of the proclamation Order and won't be until a public consultation takes place.

At the moment, there are no logging nor reporting requirements.

Has something changed?

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
reply to Who7
said by Who7:

Here's is the deal, you respect my privacy by not providing the means to the trolling industry, I am your customer within the month.

Ditto.

Mike

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to dillyhammer
said by dillyhammer:

My understanding was that sections 41.25, 41.26 and 41.27 were not part of the proclamation Order and won't be until a public consultation takes place.

At the moment, there are no logging nor reporting requirements.

Has something changed?

Mike

No it hasn't. And it looks like the answer is an evasion.

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

Section 41.26 stipulates what information we must provide and fines per incident of non-compliance at $10,000 and section 42 says that we can be charged $1,000,000 and 5 years in jail if guilty of commercial infraction.

As I've stated we are looking at how to reduce the period but legal has to get involved. Additionally it's important to realize that the cable networks have their own logs and retention policies outside of our control.

We are all for customer privacy but we aren't above the law.

You completely sidestepped the question. You quoted the fine for not complying but you have NOT quoted anywhere where there is a requirement for any log keeping.

In this article, it clearly states.....Notice the word "after".

, after being notified of infringement allegations by a rights holder, to notify the relevant subscriber of the allegations received. ISPs will also be required to retain records that would enable the identification of the subscriber allegedly engaged in the infringing activity for a period of six month

»www.canadiantechnologyiplaw.com/···n-force/

Where EXACTLY is there a requirement for log keeping before notice by the rights holder?

What EXACTLY is your current policy? 12 months?


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
I think I've been trolled, but I'll bite one last time.

"to notify the relevant subscriber of the allegations received"

...how is that possible for us to comply without any logs? I would imagine a court would find us in contempt if we were in non-compliance with a reasonable time-frame like a week. There is also the question if zero day logging would even be socially responsible in respect for more severe crimes or life endangerment; or for the protection of our network; or for correlating customer usage statistics for billing. There is a balance that has to be struck and laws that have to be adhered to. I've already committed to shortening the period, but it requires a review first and I'm afraid I won't be testing the law with $1,000,000 and 5 years of my life based on DSLR legal advice.

Once we've had adequate time to review and make procedural changes we'll adjust our retention period and make sure to update this thread.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Who7

join:2012-12-18

2 edits
said by rocca:

I think I've been trolled, but I'll bite one last time.

"to notify the relevant subscriber of the allegations received"

...how is that possible for us to comply without any logs? I would imagine a court would find us in contempt if we were in non-compliance with a reasonable time-frame like a week. There is also the question if zero day logging would even be socially responsible in respect for more severe crimes or life endangerment; or for the protection of our network; or for correlating customer usage statistics for billing. There is a balance that has to be struck and laws that have to be adhered to. I've already committed to shortening the period, but it requires a review first and I'm afraid I won't be testing the law with $1,000,000 and 5 years of my life based on DSLR legal advice.

Once we've had adequate time to review and make procedural changes we'll adjust our retention period and make sure to update this thread.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Welcome to the bright light of the internet, where people can and will ask specific questions that you can't dismiss as "trolling". I have the right to ask those questions when my privacy is at stake.

Given your inability to quote specific portion of the law that requires log keeping BEFORE a demand by rights holders, your reasoning for doing so is a perceived need by the courts. Although, what can you be possibly be charged with given there is no law that is broken.

So given that, your claim for log retention of some shortened period is "social responsibility" for life endangerment. I can't imagine how rare that would be and there is a long and well established laws that courts can demand whatever period they deem reasonable in SPECIFIC cases.

Protection of your network....that is something that while vague, it can also be valid. Although any claims can bring out those in the field that can shed light to this.

As for billing, surely you jest. If you can accumulate monthly usage from a running weekly log, you can do if for a day.

Last but not least. To your first point. If you have shortened logs then you can notify only those who are within that time period. The shorter the better served the interests of YOUR CUSTOMERS. Unless there is a mandatory general log retention period or one comes about from court cases, then you have better served the interests of YOUR CUSTOMERS.

Bottom line....

If you are going to attract those of us who are satisfied with our current IP provider but willing to switch solely on privacy issue and don't want to be a potential target of predatory practices of SOME of the rights holders, then I'm sorry, but you need to be very clear and forthcoming.

WHEN are you going to the weekly log retention?

And..........a Merry Christmas to you and yours.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by Who7:

Welcome to the bright light of the internet

Thanks. I've been around a while though. I doubt you'll find any CEO more transparent than I am, answering every question in every forum as I did again here. I understand you don't like the answer but I certainly haven't "bafflegagged", "sidestepped" nor "evaded" the question as you have stated several times now.

Here's the point form version:

- our current log retention is 1 year
- we have committed to shortening that period
- we like all ISP's will have an obligation for notice and notice for copyright claims
- the implementation details of that law is currently being worked on
- it would be premature to speculate on what the minimum retention period will be
- the idea of no logs would not enable compliance with the law
- log retention is required for other valid things
- we have not once provided subscriber information to copyright holders
- we are reviewing the current situation and as soon as possible will make our changes public

...not sure what more I can say.

Trying to pin me to "show me the exact text for retention" is trolling. Obviously it isn't defined yet, however it would be impossible to comply with the intent of the law with zero day logging so I'm providing a realistic perspective. If you want me to provide false promises in an attempt to placate you, sorry, that's not my bag.

said by Who7:

a Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Thank you, hope you had a nice day.


silvercat

join:2007-11-07
reply to Who7
Isn't this a non-issue if a customer chooses to subscribe to a VPN provider who does not keep any logs ?

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

said by Who7:

Welcome to the bright light of the internet

Thanks. I've been around a while though. I doubt you'll find any CEO more transparent than I am, answering every question in every forum as I did again here. I understand you don't like the answer but I certainly haven't "bafflegagged", "sidestepped" nor "evaded" the question as you have stated several times now.

Here's the point form version:

- our current log retention is 1 year
- we have committed to shortening that period
- we like all ISP's will have an obligation for notice and notice for copyright claims
- the implementation details of that law is currently being worked on
- it would be premature to speculate on what the minimum retention period will be
- the idea of no logs would not enable compliance with the law
- log retention is required for other valid things
- we have not once provided subscriber information to copyright holders
- we are reviewing the current situation and as soon as possible will make our changes public

...not sure what more I can say.

Trying to pin me to "show me the exact text for retention" is trolling. Obviously it isn't defined yet, however it would be impossible to comply with the intent of the law with zero day logging so I'm providing a realistic perspective. If you want me to provide false promises in an attempt to placate you, sorry, that's not my bag.

said by Who7:

a Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Thank you, hope you had a nice day.

Again with the trolling thingy? All I wanted was blunt and straight forward...and kudos, you did that.

So let's start over.

Rocca, think about this, I and probably tens of thousands more don't have any reason to move unless you can give us more shielding from what may very well become a budding profitable business model of third hand, third rate rights holders and unemployed lawyers.

So.....when will you be able to announce the "week" or hopefully way less?

I'm bookmarking this page and forum and hoping to see your announcement in bold letters!

Regards

Troll....err....FUTURE CUSTOMER! LOL!

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to silvercat
said by silvercat:

Isn't this a non-issue if a customer chooses to subscribe to a VPN provider who does not keep any logs ?

Assume nothing. Promises of faceless VPN in another country don't amount to hill of beans. I rather have a local company and CEO who commits to keep his customers from becoming delicious and profitable low hanging fruit.

Phorkster
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Windsor, ON
kudos:1
said by Who7:

said by silvercat:

Isn't this a non-issue if a customer chooses to subscribe to a VPN provider who does not keep any logs ?

Assume nothing. Promises of faceless VPN in another country don't amount to hill of beans. I rather have a local company and CEO who commits to keep his customers from becoming delicious and profitable low hanging fruit.

So you want someone who is going to be your firewall and try and refute all access to information regarding illegal activities? Smoke another bro.

von Monster

join:2012-03-22
Reviews:
·Anveo
reply to Who7
I'm still trying to figure out what exact you're demanding of Start here that Rocca hasn't answered - the specifics of what logs exactly an ISP is required to to keep aren't clear and until they are Start isn't changing it's policy.

Or in other words at least with Start you have a policy, which isn't necessarily true for every ISP.

von Monster

join:2012-03-22
Reviews:
·Anveo
reply to Phorkster
said by Phorkster:

said by Who7:

said by silvercat:

Isn't this a non-issue if a customer chooses to subscribe to a VPN provider who does not keep any logs ?

Assume nothing. Promises of faceless VPN in another country don't amount to hill of beans. I rather have a local company and CEO who commits to keep his customers from becoming delicious and profitable low hanging fruit.

So you want someone who is going to be your firewall and try and refute all access to information regarding illegal activities? Smoke another bro.

I'm beginning to thinki this is exactly what he wants.

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to sssscary
Actually, I'm not much of a "downloader".

What I want is someone who gives me a leg up by keeping me from being the low hanging fruit on the tree.

If all others are keeping a three month log or longer and Start keeps a one week log (or less), odds are that I will not be as exposed to what will become a "go after everyone", very profitable business model. If he then adds a $200 search fee, he may make it un-profitable and time restraining to get sued when my niece logs on to my wifi and secretly downloads the next ear splitting i-tune.

And that is not even looking at the rights to my privacy.

And that's not even looking at mistakes that have already been made and a lot more to be made.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to Who7
said by Who7:

Again with the trolling thingy? All I wanted was blunt and straight forward...and kudos, you did that.

Sweet. I always get my trolls and hobbits mixed up, maybe my mistake.

said by Who7:

So let's start over.

Sounds fair, but really I am not evil.

Not that I'm looking for a gold star, but I think the work that I've done both individually and through my work with CNOC has been positive for competition in the industry and as a result good for consumers. We've built our business over the past 15+ years by focusing on customers so when the question was posed about our retention period I thought "good point, let's see if we can work on something less" and started a process to review that. In short, I hope that I've built up some credibility, particularly on DSLR where I've always been forthcoming and transparent.

said by Who7:

So.....when will you be able to announce the "week" or hopefully way less?

It's being reviewed, it would be premature to provide any guess as to what the final period will be or when it will be implemented but definitely working on it and hope to have something to share in the very near future.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by rocca:

Sweet. I always get my trolls and hobbits mixed up, maybe my mistake.

I know you may not want to know this, BUT...

I read that as I was sipping on some red wine.

Not only did I snort, choke, and have wine come out my nose, but I'm pretty sure my brand new shirt I got for Xmas is now stained (not to mention the carpet).

I always wanted to know if the old wives tale of rapidly rubbing salt on a wine stain before rapidly tossing it in the washer is true.

I am about to find out.

TY Rocca.

Will post results in about 1-hour.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to sssscary
Sorry. Good luck.


hm

@videotron.ca
No stain. How about that.

Was it the salt? The type of red wine? the fast wash? Or does wine just not stain?

Damn yew Rocca. Soooo many questions. So little time...