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Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to rocca

Re: IP logging retention

said by rocca:

It's being reviewed, it would be premature to provide any guess as to what the final period will be or when it will be implemented but definitely working on it and hope to have something to share in the very near future.

The entire thing may be an exercise in angst if the judge makes it go away. Which of course mean that there will be other attempt's from different angles.....and different targets....and different judges.

But for now, I have to keep an extra eye on early teen nieces/nephews and their friends...or become the evil Uncle Troll who wont let them use his 25mbps wifi. Have you ever asked a 12 year not to do something? It's like a red cape to do it instead.

Anywho.....

Phorkster
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Windsor, ON
kudos:1
said by Who7:

said by rocca:

It's being reviewed, it would be premature to provide any guess as to what the final period will be or when it will be implemented but definitely working on it and hope to have something to share in the very near future.

The entire thing may be an exercise in angst if the judge makes it go away. Which of course mean that there will be other attempt's from different angles.....and different targets....and different judges.

But for now, I have to keep an extra eye on early teen nieces/nephews and their friends...or become the evil Uncle Troll who wont let them use his 25mbps wifi. Have you ever asked a 12 year not to do something? It's like a red cape to do it instead.

Anywho.....

Ask them, or remove access.


My2CentsST

@start.ca
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

I believe there are some minimum retention requirements under the new legislation, although I have yet to see a request from a rights holder that had a date older than a week.

I don't torrent or anything like that. However, I would also welcome a reduction in IP log retention. I just find it creepy to think that my household's internet activity is being logged for 12 months.

I believe there has been some discussion regarding TekSavvy's retention being as low as 3 months or so. If that is the legal minimum, I'd urge Start to adopt it.

I've been a big supporter of Start.ca with my family, friends, neighbours, etc. I would hate to see a situation where Start.ca loses both competitiveness and favour to TekSavvy over this issue.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
Yes we'll definitely be shortening it. Just to clarify though, it is not 'internet activity' that is being logged, simply the IP address that was assigned to your account at any given time. But still shortening.


My2CentsST

@start.ca
said by rocca:

Just to clarify though, it is not 'internet activity' that is being logged, simply the IP address that was assigned to your account at any given time.

Ah, ok. So, it's not like you're tracking activity, just what my IP address was at a particular time. In that case, no problem at all.

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

Yes we'll definitely be shortening it. Just to clarify though, it is not 'internet activity' that is being logged, simply the IP address that was assigned to your account at any given time. But still shortening.

I'm assuming you are doing it after the ruling?

*tapping fingers on desk*


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to My2CentsST
Yes that's correct.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23

1 recommendation

reply to sssscary
As promised, we have reduced our retention/automated purge process. It is now 90 days.


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
said by rocca:

As promised, we have reduced our retention/automated purge process. It is now 90 days.

Funny, when I started reading this thread and saw things like " the idea of no logs would not enable compliance with the law" and that you guys retain customer logs for 1 year, I wanna gonna close the tab but your most recent post has at least kept me wanting to switch to you from Teksavvy, at least on a best faith basis.

So, why was 90 days chosen and not 2 weeks for example? What kinda of data is stored in those logs for 90 days, IP to account assignments? I still want to address your quote above Rocca and would like to tell you that it is incorrect. Canadian ISPs have NO legal requirement to keep logs of ANY kind on their customers usage, including IP->account assignments. If you simply keep no logs at all (which you are within your legal right to do so under currently legislation), and the police/government/3rd parities/etc request it from you, you are NOT liable to any fines or litigation. As much as you may want to (or not) to provide them, you simply cannot because you don't have it.

That is why days Canadian ISPs keep logs for is so arbitrary...Because YOU get to choose it. All this has been brought up recently in the TSI section, with quotes and links to the relevant legislation. Even TSI Marc got the same response after consulting with lawyers and advocacy groups but now insists logs are required regardless for administrative reasons....Obviously do not take my word on it alone, speak to a legal expert on the matter yourself but I highly recommend doing so soon (and going back to the drawing board based on the response I know you'll get) to capitalize on the TSI exodus...

--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
This has been beat to death, but here's my last recap on it:

- we don't track web sites our customers go to
- we keep IP to account associations for 90 days
- we need logs for lots of administrative reasons such as trouble-shooting, responding to abuse reports, billing disputes, etc.
- we need logs to find infected machines, spam bots, etc.
- we need logs to maintain security and a reliable/robust network
- we have an obligation under law to be able to provide IP to subscriber mapping (the retention period itself is untested)
- we've made our policy open and public

Why is 14 days any different? It's just some arbitrary number, and there is no real-world benefit that 14 days has over 90 with copyright since the complaints come within hours of downloading. The fact is that we've never handled over subscriber information to copyright requests and protect our customer privacy to the best of our ability within the confines of the law.

Sorry but I don't have the energy to keep running in circles on this. It's been explained over and over and over. I know some people want zero day logs, sorry but we don't have plans to do that. For those that want zero day, there are lots of anonymous VPN providers to accomplish that.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
Sorry if that has a harsher tone than was intended. Rereading it I see my exasperation in text, perhaps it's been too long of a day.


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

1 edit
reply to rocca
Rocca, thank you for the reply and I know it must be annoying to keep answering these questions, but I hope you understand why this is coming up now and why it is important. You should go check out the TSI section, multiple 10-15 page threads on this very issue. Many of the people there talk about Start and your policies might be, and in fact, that is what brought me here and got the ball rolling on potentially switching.

I do want to make 1 correction however, this has very little to do with copyright...It doesn't in my case at least and while it might in other cases, most of us are concerned from a purely privacy based and internet freedom position. I do also want to point out TSI's claim that logs are required for the same administrative purposes as you pointed out has also been debunked as ISPs from all over Europe to even in the United States have gone the no logs route to protect themselves and their customers. Sure they have had to adapt, but it is 100% technically possible to achieve those tasks using alternative methods to looking at logs.

Anyway, I realize a single potential customer like myself won't succeed in changing your mind but I hope I have atleast reiterated how important it is to some of us netizens and I can assure you, you will only be annoyed with these kinds of questions more and more into the future as more people wake up....
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
Understood and I appreciate your feedback. As we go forward we may find ways of doing more with less, but this was the first step that we're able to take at this time.


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
And a very wise one because it keeps Start in my sights 90 days at least puts you on par with TSI, and how you would have handled a situation such as TSI vs Voltage is yet to be seen, however I hope you would learn from their mistake and would oppose such a motion from the beginning.

Either way, your sales department has an email Sorry for keeping you up Rocca and thanks again for your replies!
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting

Guru

join:2008-10-01
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
I don't think Rocca likes the comparison between TSI and Start! As I believe Start did not made the logs shorter because TSI has the policy.

Rocca better be ready for the crap in the future but he has been pretty consistent and making adjustments as required.