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UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to d4m1r

Re: Why is Tek still keeping logs???

@UK_Dave, the way it has played out in Europe is those ISP had those policies in place BEFORE the police came to them looking for information. Like I said, so regardless of whether they actually wanted to give out that information or not in the first place doesn't matter as they can't. There has been no public outcry and the ISPs are perfectly within their right as they are not impeding any criminal investigations because they don't have logs in the first place....To them, it was merely a business decision.
------------------------------------

Yes, I've said the same pretty much here too.

I am not talking about ways for people to wangle their way out of this existing issue - well, apart from my post mentioning log accuracy and corroborating evidence.

The whole reason I dug around was to find out, going forward, if there was a legal minimum (there isn't), and to see if the defence of "sorry we don't keep them" would be possible, again under current legislation (it could) without any legal issues.

If you say you have them, turn them over. If you don't have them, there is nothing wrong with that.

I did suggest to one of my contacts, that in allowing these voluntary held logs to be used for issues such as this, it may dissuade ISP's from having them at all.

At which point, they kill the golden goose and logs are just "not available" in any case, no matter how severe.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by UK_Dave:

At which point, they kill the golden goose and logs are just "not available" in any case, no matter how severe.

And as stated by yourself (or CAIP), this first person raped, or kid that is killed, or whatever terrorist act creeps up, that ISP will be dragged over the coals in public.

You are basically stating too bad for the kid that was stalked on facebook and killed. I think that is rather juvenile. And just to protect some pimple faced kid downloading a movie?

There has to be a balance. Not extremism on either end.

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
"You are basically stating too bad for the kid that was stalked on facebook and killed. I think that is rather juvenile. And just to protect some pimple faced kid downloading a movie?"
-----------------------

I think you had better start explaining where I said that.

qewey

join:2007-10-04
reply to sm5w2
said by sm5w2:

I've asked this question (legal requirements to log IP assignments) before here on dslr (and on usenet - can.internet.highspeed) and have never gotten any coherent answer.

But I'll tell you why TS and Bell and any other ISP does it. It's a very simple concept.

The telco / ISP industry wants as few laws / rules / regs as possible.

Law enforcement and the courts want to know IP assignments from time to time. So you keep logs and you give them the info they want. They are happy.

If you did not keep logs, they would be unhappy - AND THEY WOULD SIMPLY ENACT LAWS TO COMPEL YOU TO KEEP LOGS. Maybe throw in other rules or requirements while they're at it. Then the telco's / ISP's would be unhappy.

It's just that simple.

Now answer me this:

There is no technical or billing reason why a telco would need to keep logs of any local (non-billable) calls you make with your land-line. But - are there any laws on the books that require such logging?

If the answer is no, then the same logic and rational should apply to logging IP assignments.

Thats where TSI small size relative to the incumbents is finally an advantage here because their actions dont matter much compared to what the big 3 are doing as far as setting the agenda for domestic regulations.

So its a win-win for TSI if they lower their logs to lets say a few days :

First they get the extortionists off their back from further court orders since there is no log to hand over. Second they get strong customer support and further their brand even more. then 2 things can happen :

1) the incumbents dont follow suit because they are afraid of legislation/regulations against the whole industry. Government wont make regulations just for TSI. So its a win for TSI.

2) the incumbents follow suit but then will use all their lobbying powers to avoid/tone down any legislation/regulations against the industry. Again a win for TSI.

If TSI stay as is then its a lose for them because they will be perpetual victims (due to their small size and lack of internal legal department) from court orders from the extortionists costing resources that can used somewhere else. And they take a hit on the customer PR side.

qewey

join:2007-10-04
reply to hm
said by hm :

said by UK_Dave:

At which point, they kill the golden goose and logs are just "not available" in any case, no matter how severe.

And as stated by yourself (or CAIP), this first person raped, or kid that is killed, or whatever terrorist act creeps up, that ISP will be dragged over the coals in public.

You are basically stating too bad for the kid that was stalked on facebook and killed. I think that is rather juvenile. And just to protect some pimple faced kid downloading a movie?

There has to be a balance. Not extremism on either end.

sounds like the same argument line as the infamous "if you are not with us, you are with the child pornographers" from Vic Toews in parliament on the online surveillance bill, C-30.

»news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/14···c-toews/

»www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2···ons.html

yes real balanced all right .....


sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to qewey
> So its a win-win for TSI if they lower their logs to lets say a few days :
>
> First they get the extortionists off their back from further court orders since there is
> no log to hand over. Second they get strong customer support and further their brand
> even more. then 2 things can happen :
>
> 1) the incumbents dont follow suit because they are afraid of legislation/regulations
> against the whole industry. Government wont make regulations just for TSI. So its a win for TSI.

Yes, that is the way it would (or should) play out. The ISP's with smaller customer-base could do little or no IP-logging, and in theory they should receive proportionately fewer requests for IP information from the courts - information that they wouldn't be able to provide. The over-all number of failed attempts by the courts to get IP-info from ISP's that don't log wouldn't (or shouldn't) be enough to motivate them to impose legal regulation on the whole industry. Now, we could be completely off-base with that supposition.

So we don't really know why the smaller ISP's maintain IP-logs for such a long period of time given there is no legal requirement for them to do so, and also given that the information is a legal "hot potato" for them and it would be better if they did not have the information in the first place.

Presumably there would be NO downside for them if the courts ordered them to turn over information that they didn't have...???


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by sm5w2 See Profile

So we don't really know why the smaller ISP's maintain IP-logs for such a long period of time given there is no legal requirement for them to do so, and also given that the information is a legal "hot potato" for them and it would be better if they did not have the information in the first place.

Presumably there would be NO downside for them if the courts ordered them to turn over information that they didn't have...

QFT

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