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Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Canada

Tim Hortons: foreign temp workers "pioneer"

Tim Hortons "is a company that a lot of Canadians identify with and it is very proudly a Canadian brand," says Howard Ramos, an associate professor of sociology at Dalhousie University in Halifax.

"But it's also a company that is a pioneer in hiring temporary foreign workers and so for this reason I think it's important to highlight Tim Hortons as an exemplar of how the temporary foreign worker program has changed and expanded."

'I think it's important to highlight Tim Hortons as an exemplar of how the temporary foreign worker program has changed and expanded.'
�€”Howard Ramos, Dalhousie University
Cygal says Hortons doesn't have numbers of temporary foreign workers employed at its restaurants.

But in an email to CBC News, she said that many of the company's restaurants wouldn't be able to operate full time or remain open without the temporary foreign worker program.

Franchisees prefer to hire locally rather "than to go to the expense and administrative needs of hiring temporary foreign workers," but turn to the program after they have "exhausted all other avenues" to fill vacancies, Cygal wrote.

Cygal said Tim Hortons and its restaurant owners "have had a very strong employment record since we started the Temporary Foreign Worker program.

"We have a rigorous screening process for employment agencies and partners abroad and our restaurant owners employ such rigor in their hiring and employment practices.

"We continue to feel good about the process we have in place so that together with our owners, Tim Hortons can continue offering a strong working environment for temporary foreign workers and all of our teams."

In 2008, a representative of Tim Hortons' licensing company, TDL Group Inc., told the federal citizenship and immigration committee that the company had more than 600 temporary foreign workers at stores across Canada, with another 400 arriving later in the year.

"So the number is going to continually increase," Chris Thomas told the committee.

Sounds to me like these companies are trying to evade the laws of supply and demand. Labour has a price, at least in a fair markets, and if that price isnt met what typically happens is compensation gets sweetened until someone is willing to do the work for the price being offered. In short, pay more and you'll find employees without resorting to importing 3rd world foreign temp workers.

This is abhorrent, exploitative and ought to be ended. We have a large pool of unskilled Canadians, and if they won't do the job for minimum wage then employers should be forced to be true capitalists rather than slave owners.

Thoughts?
--
»libertarian.on.ca/


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
One only has to look at recent laws passed by the Federal Govt to blame for this.

Tims can pay less then minimum wage now.


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
reply to Markie
Are teenagers so well off they don't need jobs?

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to Markie
It's actually cheaper for them to transport workers in from outside of Canada?

Do I have that right?


Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Canada
reply to Thane_Bitter
Would the corporation care if there were? This isn't about a lack of Canadian workers, this is a litmus test to gauge public reaction and to see who is actually paying attention to the corporate atrocities being committed in plain sight. If environmental concerns don't outrage, if CEO compensation is tolerated, if offshoring of profits are allowed it only stands to reason that eventually they would focus on what could never be exported, front line service jobs. Importing slaves at a 15% discount to fill those jobs is an end run around labour codes, and that 15% is todays figure, who is to say it couldn't increase if this scheme is carried to its intended conclusion?
--
»libertarian.on.ca/

Doonz

join:2010-11-27
Beaumont, AB
reply to Thane_Bitter
said by Thane_Bitter:

Are teenagers so well off they don't need jobs?

In our town. Our Tim's is staffed from 12am to 8am by foreign workers. Then from 8am - 3pm its mostly locals. then from 3pm-8pm its mostly local teens and then from 8pm - 12am its foreigners.

I think its a great mix and I realize that running a 24/7 business requires a lot of personel not to mention that a lot of canadians look down upon these jobs...

Oh to add the weekends 6am - 12am are staffed by mostly teens

Doonz

join:2010-11-27
Beaumont, AB
reply to Markie
said by Thane_Bitter:

Are teenagers so well off they don't need jobs?

In our town. Our Tim's is staffed from 12am to 8am by foreign workers. Then from 8am - 3pm its mostly locals. then from 3pm-8pm its mostly local teens and then from 8pm - 12am its foreigners.

I think its a great mix and I realize that running a 24/7 business requires a lot of personel not to mention that a lot of canadians look down upon these jobs...

Oh to add the weekends 6am - 12am are staffed by mostly


Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Canada
reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70:

It's actually cheaper for them to transport workers in from outside of Canada?

Do I have that right?

doubtful, but with tax write offs and the intended purpose of conditioning the masses for eventual expansion of this program the big payoff is down the road a ways. It's probably a wash right now, but the unknowns of forced rent, job placement payments make the true costs opaque.
--
»libertarian.on.ca/


zacron
Premium
join:2008-11-26
canada
reply to Markie
Thane_bitter, if you crunch the numbers (taxes, fees etc), it is in fact cheaper for a student/teen to sit on social assistance than to work at Tim Hortons... the problem truly lies with the capitalistic nature of our society... there is only so much money and that value proposition is way too high, so rent in Hamilton for one bedroom in a student house on the mountain is around 410$/mth with the largest portion going to hydro.

So if you look at most jobs they say you'll have "40" hours but you're usually lucky to get around 12-20 hours (ask most of mohawk college)... Therefore the statistics do speak the truth.
--
"Recognize, Realize, and Repent"


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Thane_Bitter
said by Markie:

This is abhorrent, exploitative and ought to be ended. We have a large pool of unskilled Canadians, and if they won't do the job for minimum wage then employers should be forced to be true capitalists rather than slave owners.

... you refer to capitalists yet you involve a dictatorship? Weird.

In any case, I disagree with your assessment of the situation as two of the local Tim Horton's has had 'help wanted' signs on their windows for weeks now, maybe a month.

If we worked with your dictatorship capitalism idea, the cost of coffee would go up considerably, since this labour pool you allege exists would want a minimum of $45,000 a year with benefits, paid sick days, more benefits and a representative union to make sure this goes up a few thousand dollars every year.

I'm sure most Canadians would prefer to pay less than $15 for a cup of coffee.

said by Thane_Bitter:

Are teenagers so well off they don't need jobs?

Yes, these days they live at home with their parents until they're 30 or married (but if married before 30, they usually divorce and come back at some point before they're 35).


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
reply to PX Eliezer70
Its not about being cheaper. They cannot get enough staff to fill the positions, especially overnight shifts. I work with many of the store owners on a daily basis and they genuinely cannot find the labor needed to run the stores 24/7.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
said by twizlar:

Its not about being cheaper. They cannot get enough staff to fill the positions, especially overnight shifts. I work with many of the store owners on a daily basis and they genuinely cannot find the labor needed to run the stores 24/7.

Yep. It started a few years ago in Alberta. I personally saw a McDonalds that was closed on weekends because they couldn't get anyone to work there, despite offering close to $20 an hour (that was in Red Deer).

Now it's spreading to other parts of the country. That's what happens when you keep giving your kids everything they want without teaching them the value of work and money. Somehow they end up thinking that passing wind is worth $50k. Imagine that!

Laidback

join:2001-09-30
Woodstock, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to Markie
My daughter worked at Tim Horton for 10 years. She saved her money and worked there part time when she was in University. Her hourly rate of pay when she finally left was $16.50, which I'm pretty sure is above minimum wage.
She was fortunate to work for an owner who believed in giving their employees increases after 800 hours.

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to twizlar
I have always wondered about this:

Does it pay to be open at 3:30 AM?

Except at the very busiest stores, seems absolutely nuts.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
said by PX Eliezer70:

Does it pay to be open at 3:30 AM?

Don't know about 3:30, but I've been through the drive through at work at 5am (not often, but we have a shift that starts at 5:30). Interesting fact - you can't buy tim bits at 5am. I had to go back that morning as I'd planned to bring some in for the guys.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

One only has to look at recent laws passed by the Federal Govt to blame for this.

Tims can pay less then minimum wage now.

How so? They've been doing this for years....

Here is what I see the issue: Minimum wage is hard to live on. Foreign workers have no other choice.

Could Tim's set the bar higher and pay people a decent wage? Probably, but Canadians, like Americans, go and buy at the cheapest place possible, so as long as you have other low cost providers, like Ron's Diner, Tim's has to stay low cost.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
reply to IamGimli
said by IamGimli:

said by twizlar:

Its not about being cheaper. They cannot get enough staff to fill the positions, especially overnight shifts. I work with many of the store owners on a daily basis and they genuinely cannot find the labor needed to run the stores 24/7.

Yep. It started a few years ago in Alberta. I personally saw a McDonalds that was closed on weekends because they couldn't get anyone to work there, despite offering close to $20 an hour (that was in Red Deer).

Now it's spreading to other parts of the country. That's what happens when you keep giving your kids everything they want without teaching them the value of work and money. Somehow they end up thinking that passing wind is worth $50k. Imagine that!

said by Doonz:

said by Thane_Bitter:

Are teenagers so well off they don't need jobs?

In our town. Our Tim's is staffed from 12am to 8am by foreign workers. Then from 8am - 3pm its mostly locals. then from 3pm-8pm its mostly local teens and then from 8pm - 12am its foreigners.

I think its a great mix and I realize that running a 24/7 business requires a lot of personel not to mention that a lot of canadians look down upon these jobs...

Oh to add the weekends 6am - 12am are staffed by mostly teens

I know many many South Asian people who see working at McD or Tim is beneath their level or insulting. They don't understand work is work no matter what. They will work in call centre at $10/h but will never work at Timmie for $15-$20. But look like this attitude is not limited to certain communities and common in other parts as well.

And many workers at Tim I see in Toronto are mainly Sri-Lankans. That include gas station and other stalls at subway stations. So this "Temp" must be different for other parts of Canada.


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
reply to Markie
Considering how the company loves to play the "Canadian angle" I find this and every other change they have made over the years seems to be completely anti-Canadian.

I would boycott them, however they lost my business years ago.

zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to Thane_Bitter
said by Thane_Bitter:

Are teenagers so well off they don't need jobs?

I always thought if I had a chance to do it over I wouldn't of started working right out of the gate at age 16 (The legal age in BC where you don't need parental consent). I was 16, I pretty much spent my money on crap anyways. I probably should of enjoyed those years a bit more hanging out with friends at the river, rather then bagging groceries and collecting carts.... lol.

Or maybe I shouldn't of let them goad me into working 33.5 hours/week while going to school

Edit: As for using foreign workers. I was ok with it before, but those first few posts made me change my view on it. It really does circumvent supply and demand. I could understand allowing in parts of the country where there aren't enough workers (Alberta?) but in the rest of the country unemployment is high enough that imported cheap labour shouldn't be needed.

I lived in Edmonton for a while, the one thing I always found interesting was that most people didn't know what minimum wage was because no one would work for it. Everything from McD's to grocery stores had to pay more to staff their stores. All of those companies survived just fine.


Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Canada
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

said by Markie:

This is abhorrent, exploitative and ought to be ended. We have a large pool of unskilled Canadians, and if they won't do the job for minimum wage then employers should be forced to be true capitalists rather than slave owners.

... you refer to capitalists yet you involve a dictatorship? Weird.

What the fuck? Revoking labour arbitrage is hardly dictatorship.
--
»libertarian.on.ca/


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Markie
i like how the Germans do it...you get social assistance for a limited time...after that, you are assigned a job...perhaps we need something similar here...we've got something like 8% unemployment in Canada (almost 20% here in London)...while there is certainly people unable to work, there is no doubt people who are choosing not to.


Devanchya
Smile
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
I have had to look at Foreign workers for a number of positions. Of course in my case it has been for IT work. The local market is VERY tight at the moment for IT and the numbers just didn't add up.

We didn't find anyone Foreign either... Skilled Labour and Tech jobs are very hard to fill at times.

As hard as it is to say this, why are there people at Tim Hortons anyways? Shouldn't they just be putting in Vending Machines? that's what the coffee and food tastes like anyways.
--
»www.codecipher.com - Marking the way to tomorrow's solutions -- Did you know that Perl is not Dead? »perlisalive.org/


loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
said by Devanchya:

I have had to look at Foreign workers for a number of positions. Of course in my case it has been for IT work. The local market is VERY tight at the moment for IT and the numbers just didn't add up.

...

I dont agree. It is just you or others don't want to give money to existing unemployed people. Many companies want the best and brightest but don't want to pay the best. And yes they want smart young people...
I have worked with IT staffing agency in the past and they always play this game, especially with new immigrants. They will have them on contract for years but never offer permanent jobs.

And you forget many many jobs are filled with people someone you know and are never advertised. No matter how bad they are.

I never buy this argument that IT sector has shortage of workers. Always crying about shortages of workers.

JBear

join:2005-02-24
canada
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

One only has to look at recent laws passed by the Federal Govt to blame for this.

Tims can pay less then minimum wage now.

Citation please?

NefCanuck

join:2007-06-26
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to Markie
The thing with these programs is they distort the local labour markets by giving the companies access to foreign workers who are willing to work for less than what the prevailing local wage is.

Sure by using these programs you keep the companies costs down (and in theory prices) but in practice all it does is artificially inflate the companies profit numbers because of the distorted labour costs.

But what does it also do? It also reduces the number of jobs that are available to local labour which causes the unemployment rate is be higher than it would be otherwise.

IOW: If the companies didn't have access to the cheaper labour pool that the foreign workers program gives them, they would be forced to provide wages to draw workers to them and reduce the unemployment rate. Which would also have the effect of increasing government tax revenue and reduce the amount of money spent on social programs, which benefits all of us.

But since the corporations "run the show" now, I doubt that anything I've said above hasn't already been thought of and discounted as "bunk" by these same self serving corporations.

NefCanuck


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
it is why i said foreign workers shouldn't be allowed...in any field.


Kitlope

join:2004-07-29
Edmonton, Ab
reply to Markie
Timmy's should be staffed by teenagers for most shifts but Little Johnny is too precious to learn about work ethic. Instead, at 17, he goes to school achieving so-so marks and spends most of his free time playing X-Box with the parents catering to his needs.

It would be easy to blame Johnny but this issue has been created by the helicopter parents. Keep in mind though Timmy's just love to bring in foreigners when they can as cheap labour walks the walk and is the final line.


Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Canada
reply to JBear
said by JBear:

said by elwoodblues:

One only has to look at recent laws passed by the Federal Govt to blame for this.

Tims can pay less then minimum wage now.

Citation please?

True, look it up yourself and you'll learn that these foreigners can legally be paid 15% less than the prevailing market wage courtesy of our federal government. And i don't say that to start an ideological fight, at this juncture as nefcanuck said the corps are running the show now and it is doubtful even the socialists would rescind this unless there was blood spilled in the streets because of it.
--
»libertarian.on.ca/

analog andy

join:2005-01-03
Surrey, BC
reply to Kitlope
said by Kitlope:

Timmy's should be staffed by teenagers for most shifts but Little Johnny is too precious to learn about work ethic. Instead, at 17, he goes to school achieving so-so marks and spends most of his free time playing X-Box with the parents catering to his needs.

It would be easy to blame Johnny but this issue has been created by the helicopter parents. Keep in mind though Timmy's just love to bring in foreigners when they can as cheap labour walks the walk and is the final line.

If Johnny is not leeching off the system like the corporations get to and he's even living off his parents who cares what he does with his life. Why is it any of your business?

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70:

I have always wondered about this:

Does it pay to be open at 3:30 AM?

Except at the very busiest stores, seems absolutely nuts.

Considering night staff have other duties than just manning the cash register (cleaning, re-stocking, preparing large orders, etc.) yes, it pays to be open. Sales are free money as they'd need someone in there anyway.

BTW forcing those kind of places to pay more to hire unemployed people only perpetuates the problem. When the effective minimum wage gets to be $25+ because unemployed people won't work for less then the price of everything has to go up, and this creates extremely high inflation and cost of living for EVERYBODY in that area, not just the unemployed people, which in turn raises the poverty level in that area, and raises the amount of money unemployed people will want before getting off their ass.

When you see the amount of demagogy that came out of the Left when EI rules were changed recently to allow the program to force someone to take a job at 80% of their former salary can you imagine the consequences if you could force them to take minimum wage jobs, even if they're not actually paid minimum wage?