dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
3564
share rss forum feed


vtanyav

@rogers.com

[Homephone] How to Locate a residential NID and FIBE

1. Bell Canada has spent over 1 month (actually I have) NOT being able to find the Network Interface Device (NID) in my house (which they installed ~ possibly 40 years ago).

They finally allowed the buried wire service to locate the area of entry into the house but cannot (or will not) trace it further
There has been no renovation but Bell says I have to have the walls torn apart...

Now BELL tells me that 1 of the technicians said the NID was hidden in the ceiling. (I was NEVER told this) and that I have to get someone to tear down all the ceiling drywall in each room to find it.

Is there anything UNIQUE about telephone wire (cable) that can be picked up on some sort of instrument so they can trace the wire / cable inside the house? (from where it enters the house?)

(The box is inside)

2. If the NID is never found, if I had BELL install FIBE, how would they access each jack (there are about 10 or so) withOUT me having to use wireless?



andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
kudos:1

Call and get fibe then they can cut a put a proper NID on the outside and wire the phones etc from there.As for finding it inside its never more than a few feet from where it enters the building.(in a house).


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to vtanyav

1. The economics would dictate that Bell needs to install a new NID in a proper place for the structure.
2. The home owner would then be required to connect to the building wiring.

I would suggest that it may be a whole lot cheaper to have Bell install a new NID then decide how and where to tie into the old wiring.

IF everything concentrates eventually in a ceiling somewhere, the issue is can you abandon all the old wiring and rewire.

Older home have many wires that are unused and not needed, such that if the wiring is not removed (or abandoned) the old wiring will really degrade high speed Internet.

The choice is yours.

Under current rules (good rules); Bell has to provide a demarcation point. You will have to resolve the issues beyond the NID (demarcation block), and any wiring in the structure.

Rick



vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to andyb

Thank you andyb and RickStep

said by RickStep:

I would suggest that it may be a whole lot cheaper to have Bell install a new NID then decide how and where to tie into the old wiring.

How without the NID?

Under current rules (good rules); Bell has to provide a demarcation point. You will have to resolve the issues beyond the NID (demarcation block), and any wiring in the structure.

I do have "wirecare"

Problem: There are a lot of used jacks in the house which we want to keep.
We don't want wireless.
Physically how can they upgrade each (already installed and payed for) jack to FIBE?
And as you mention the old wiring would interfere with FIBE?
I am fine having them install a new NID but do not want to pay a fortune to upgrade the old jacks.

One of the BELL technicians told me that only 1 or 2 jacks need to be wireless to allow all of the jacks to work with FIBE????

tHANKS

phily316

join:2006-01-31
Montreal, QC
reply to vtanyav

They won't "upgrade" each jack to Fibe. Only one jack will work for Fibe Tv and Internet.

Fow the wirecare, Bell will repair your existing wiring and/or jacks. If you're wire are behind the walls, don't count on them to replace the wire inside. They will staple on the wall.



Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada

onestly, wirecare is no different than hiring a contractor, may cost u just as msuch, however if u really "really" need proper jacks, just hire someone or do it yourself, its not hard, i did my hole hosue myself
--
Happiness is like peeing your pants... Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its Warmth!!



vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to phily316

Thanks phily316:

They won't "upgrade" each jack to Fibe. Only one jack will work for Fibe Tv and Internet.

Don't understand
I need TV and INTERNET in several rooms

Fow the wirecare, Bell will repair your existing wiring and/or jacks. If you're wire are behind the walls, don't count on them to replace the wire inside. They will staple on the wall.

Because they could not find the NID, they ended up splicing a jack and stapled.

Thanks Paolo:

onestly, wirecare is no different than hiring a contractor, may cost u just as msuch,

I think Wirecare is about $2.00 a month - Contractors are far more here.

however if u really "really" need proper jacks, just hire someone or do it yourself, its not hard, i did my hole hosue myself

The jacks are all there (they have been installed over the years). They attach to the *lost* NID.
I want to change to BELL FIBE from the "other company" here.
I want to have internet and CABLE with BELL) I only have telephone with BELL right now.

I want to keep the jacks that have been installed. I cannot afford to have all the jacks redone. I don't want wireless for the telephone.
I assume one cannot use the regular phone line for the phones and have FIBE only for TV and Internet?

The technician (1 of them) told me that I would only need 1 or 2 wireless phones for all the jacks to function without wireless.

Thank you.

SLAMtech

join:2009-12-03
kudos:1
reply to vtanyav

This is a problem that is seen more frequently as older homes get renovated.

In order to make fibe TV and fibe internet work properly you will 100% need a pots splitter installed at the point of entry to eliminate bridge taps that ISW will create and eliminate filters.

Basically there needs to be a NID installed where the BSW goes into your home. There the bsw can be cut leaving enough slack coming out of your home to insert it into the NID to tie in all your ISW. The BSW can be spliced or a temp can be run to insert the BSW into the Nid coming from the pedestal/encap.

From there a Pots Splitter insert can be installed in the NID and a dedicated line can be run from the NID to inside your home(requires drilling) for the DSL modem and Fibe TV.

One thing to point out is that if the carbon fuses ever blew where the inside protector is then all your jacks would be screwed and you would be forced to tear down some drywall to get those back in service.


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1

3 edits
reply to vtanyav

We are trying to help and you are either not listening or don’t understand.

Telephone wiring at a basic level is very simple. There are only 2 wires required to carry a signal plus a ground for safety.

For a phone circuit really, really bad wiring has no impact on the voice circuit on the telephone. A voice circuit requires no more than 2.5 KHz. A 50 plus years ago specification.

Today; it is possible to transmit TV over copper wire and the quality of the wiring in any home has to conform to today’s requirements not from 50 years ago.

Home wiring today needs to be able to transfer signals at speeds at least 2000 times that required for voice only circuits on a 5 mega bit per second service and 10,000 times on 25 mega bit per second service (at the least to the input of the modem). Cables coming out of the modem need to comply with Ethernet standards not Bell standards. Ethernet reqires 4 pair (8 wires) not 1 pair (2 wires).

The issues are these:
1. Old house wiring is a combination of star wiring and loop wiring.
2. Star wiring starts at a point and goes in several directions. If there are unused points on the star, or a star line is extended and there is no device at the end, the unused wires are antennas that really screw up the system.
3. If your house has a loop installed the problem is worse. Bell used to wire a home by anchoring one end of the inside wire cable at the Bell service entrance point and run the wire through the home; leaving loops in each room and ending at the starting point. Connection boxes were installed where the loops were in each room. When the installation was finished the telephone signal could go either way on the wires to any phone. The rationale was that if a wire were cut; the signal would always have a path to the phone.
4. The losses on loop type wiring on a high speed circuit are huge and if the loop is deliberately cut to fix the problem; any wiring past the last device must also be cut.

There are 2 points here that need to be made to clear some of this up.

Bell Canada needs a verifiable entry point into the building; and the home owner is not supposed to bury it somewhere. Bell has no obligation to go looking for it.

A new entry point for Bell, i.e. the installation of a new demarcation point with a pots splitter fixes Bell’s commitment.

You, the home owner now has to decide what to do to bring the home wiring up to a standard suitable for high speed Internet plus TV.

Since you have wire care; you must either convince Bell that they (Bell) have to upgrade the wiring in the home, or you pay for it yourself.

The choices are the following:
1. Install all new wiring
2. Tie into the old wiring; keeping in mind that you will need to find the old NID and remove all unused un-terminated wires.

Many installers today use Ethernet cat 5E cable (now Cat 6) for in house wiring. The minimum is cat 3. The existing house wiring simply called Bell System indoor wiring is below cat 3.

Simply abandon the old wiring and rewire, or break a hole and locate the old NID and cleanup the best you can.

PLEASE, keep this in mind. IF you choose to break a hole and clean up the old wiring the best that you can, testing on the circuit may still not pass the requirements for TV in every room and you may still need to rewire anyway.

There is also a wireless way to do this is if you want to reconsider wireless.

Rick



llort

@rogers.com
reply to vtanyav

SLAMtech is 100% correct. Fibe can easily installed as per his methods even though your inside "nid" cannot be found however, as he stated later on if your telephone wiring goes bad or the hidden "nid" blows it's carbons then you will either have to break open the ceiling to find it or just abandon your jacks. IMHO covering up basement ceilings with drywall is the worst thing anyone could do because simple things turn into big headaches like this one.



xbell

@cgocable.net
reply to vtanyav

said by vtanyav :

I think Wirecare is about $2.00 a month - Contractors are far more here.

Wirecare is around $7.00 and you need a year commitment on a repair. Bell stats show that the rate of return amortized over the average ISW repair is $1500.00. It' cheaper to hire a one time private repair tech like me. There is a way to trace the NID to within a few inches and people hire me to do it all the time. Then trace the circuits that it's not economical to re-fish and consolidate with new cat. 5 or 3.


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
reply to SLAMtech

said by SLAMtech:

This is a problem that is seen more frequently as older homes get renovated…

…by moronic contractors or cheap ignorant homeowners which proceed to wall in things such as NIDS, access panels, valves, electrical devices, etc. which require access, periodic maintenance or eventual replacement/upgrade.

Fixed for truthyness.


vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to SLAMtech

said by SLAMtech:

This is a problem that is seen more frequently as older homes get renovated.

There has not been any renovation in the basement.

Basically there needs to be a NID installed

A second NID?

where the BSW goes into your home. There the bsw can be cut leaving enough slack coming out of your home to insert it into the NID to tie in all your ISW. The BSW can be spliced or a temp can be run to insert the BSW into the Nid coming from the pedestal/encap.

From there a Pots Splitter insert can be installed in the NID and a dedicated line can be run from the NID to inside your home(requires drilling) for the DSL modem and Fibe TV.

One thing to point out is that if the carbon fuses ever blew where the inside protector is then all your jacks would be screwed and you would be forced to tear down some drywall to get those back in service.

A main reason to find the CURRENT NID IS in case of breakdown.

The Buried wire service (BWS(?)) has traced the wire from the phone POLE TO THE exterior of the house.

I do not understand some of the above ... But essentially there would be 2 NIDs? (1 which is already installed (not located) and a new one for the Ethernet cat 5E cable (now Cat 6)?)

Thank you


vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to RickStep

said by RickStep:

We are trying to help and you are either not listening or don’t understand.

The latter.

Telephone wiring at a basic level is very simple. There are only 2 wires required to carry a signal plus a ground for safety.

For a phone circuit really, really bad wiring has no impact on the voice circuit on the telephone. A voice circuit requires no more than 2.5 KHz. A 50 plus years ago specification.

Today; it is possible to transmit TV over copper wire

Copper -> Is copper in other types of wires? I.e would this
"BK Precision 262 Cable Tester at Test Equipment and More"
»www.testequipmentandmore.com/BK_···262.html
Be specific enough to trace the wire from the approximate location of the buried wire (phone pole -> OUTside the house) - To start from INside the house to the NID? (extrapolating the point of entry)

and the quality of the wiring in any home has to conform to today’s requirements not from 50 years ago.

The issues are these:
1. Old house wiring is a combination of star wiring and loop wiring.
2. Star wiring starts at a point and goes in several directions. If there are unused points on the star, or a star line is extended and there is no device at the end, the unused wires are antennas that really screw up the system.

So that would be the result if I could not find the current NID but used the old wire?

3. If your house has a loop installed the problem is worse. Bell used to wire a home by anchoring one end of the inside wire cable at the Bell service entrance point and run the wire through the home; leaving loops in each room and ending at the starting point. Connection boxes were installed where the loops were in each room. When the installation was finished the telephone signal could go either way on the wires to any phone. The rationale was that if a wire were cut; the signal would always have a path to the phone.
4. The losses on loop type wiring on a high speed circuit are huge and if the loop is deliberately cut to fix the problem; any wiring past the last device must also be cut.

The house was built in 1973.
How can one tell which was used?

There are 2 points here that need to be made to clear some of this up.

Bell Canada needs a verifiable entry point into the building; and the home owner is not supposed to bury it somewhere. Bell has no obligation to go looking for it.

I think they are all buried in this area. I have no control over what happens from the telephone pole to the house.

A new entry point for Bell, i.e. the installation of a new demarcation point with a pots splitter fixes Bell’s commitment.

You, the home owner now has to decide what to do to bring the home wiring up to a standard suitable for high speed Internet plus TV.

Since you have wire care; you must either convince Bell that they (Bell) have to upgrade the wiring in the home, or you pay for it yourself.

The choices are the following:
1. Install all new wiring
2. Tie into the old wiring; keeping in mind that you will need to find the old NID and remove all unused un-terminated wires.

I would like to upgrade to Ethernet cat 5E cable (now Cat 6) regardless.

Many installers today use Ethernet cat 5E cable (now Cat 6) for in house wiring. The minimum is cat 3. The existing house wiring simply called Bell System indoor wiring is below cat 3.

Simply abandon the old wiring and rewire, or break a hole and locate the old NID and cleanup the best you can.

If I understand, upgrading the wiring would entail a new NID anyway?
Would there be any advantage in locating the old NID if the wiring for the whole house was changed?

Thanks


vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to xbell

said by xbell :

said by vtanyav :

I think Wirecare is about $2.00 a month - Contractors are far more here.

Wirecare is around $7.00 and you need a year commitment on a repair. Bell stats show that the rate of return amortized over the average ISW repair is $1500.00. It' cheaper to hire a one time private repair tech like me. There is a way to trace the NID to within a few inches and people hire me to do it all the time.

I already have wire care.
Thanks


vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to llort

said by llort :

SLAMtech is 100% correct. Fibe can easily installed as per his methods even though your inside "nid" cannot be found however, as he stated later on if your telephone wiring goes bad or the hidden "nid" blows it's carbons then you will either have to break open the ceiling to find it or just abandon your jacks.

Thanks
I need something that could follow the phone wire from the outside (extrapolation where it comes into the house) to the approximate location of the CURRENT NID?
"BK Precision 262 Cable Tester at Test Equipment and More"
»www.testequipmentandmore.com/BK_···262.html

RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to vtanyav

I will draw a diagram later or late this evening.

A picture really is worth a 1000 words and may help you better understand the issues; but you may not see it until tomorrow.

Rick


SLAMtech

join:2009-12-03
kudos:1
reply to vtanyav

I'm just stating what I would do to install service at your house and as i can see is the only proper way to do so.

You don't have a NID inside, it is called an inside protector that is grounded for liability and safety. If I can't find it, I am definitely not taking responsibility for tearing down drywall, I would just leave it be. I would install your service exactly as stated above. Regardless all your phone jacks will still work and as long as there is no major metallic issues we all walk away happy.

Your ISW is beyond the pots splitter so it will have no effect on your sync or fibe TV service pending no major metallics. You need a dedicated pair for your service and hell if you wanted phone as well I would wire up a secondary pair for phone and place a dual jack. This way if your already installed isw bites the dust we would just disconnect it and you would still have a working phone jack in the meantime.

Usually it is only a few feet from where it enters the house but that is not always the case. Your best bet is to cut a small hole in the basement at the point of entry and use a flashlight and see if you can find it. You can buy access panels at a hardware store to cover it up.


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1

4 edits
reply to vtanyav

The orginal v1.0 drawing posted here has been removed

The current v2.0 drawing is in a newer post; a later post.

Rick


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to vtanyav

Some additional information:

If I recall correctly, there are installations where Bell will automatically send out a technician.

If I am correct it is any time a Sagemcom modem is required for high speed Internet; speeds at 16 MHz. and higher and for the installation of Fibe TV.

I believe bell will replace the demarcation point, and upgrade the wiring at their expense. How this is done, I can't answer. How many places that Bell will install for TV boxes, I can't answer. Cogeco will install up to 4.

When I worked at Bell years & years ago; Bell taught us how to fish wiring into walls as opposed to running new wiring on the surface (along baseboards). If the basement is finished, it’s not Bell’s problem.

Feel free to post back, it’s Christmas soon and my responses may be erratic.

If you send me a private message that you posted here; Instant Messages are forwarded to my email address. I’ll know that you posted and my response will be here in this thread.

Rick



Support Guy

@bell.ca
reply to RickStep

It is not recommended to connect IPTV Set Top Boxes to anything other than the Sagem 2864 modem itself if connecting Set Top Boxes via ethernet.
If using coax (HPNA) then the proper mode is using the appropriate Bell provided coax splitter.

Expand your moderator at work

RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1

4 edits
reply to Support Guy

Re: [Homephone] How to Locate a residential NID and FIBE

said by Support Guy :

It is not recommended to connect IPTV Set Top Boxes to anything other than the Sagem 2864 modem itself if connecting Set Top Boxes via ethernet.
If using coax (HPNA) then the proper mode is using the appropriate Bell provided coax splitter.

Thanks Support Guy.

Your suggestions have been added to the drawing.

The original version 2 drawing that was here has been deleted updated and reposted below.

Rick


vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to RickStep

Hi
Just an interim thank you!
I am really grateful for the diagram and information!
GREATLY appreciated!
I am going over this and will be posting back!


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1

2 edits

See updated drawing below.

Rick


RPT4Life

join:2012-12-18

Good drawing Rick. There's a couple small things you should know / change.

1) As long as it's groomed properly (proper HPNA splitter, all coax heads changed, proper high-frequency barrels, etc) and it's not running through what I've coined as "Franken-cable" (multiple small pieces barrelled in a row), FibeTV will work with both RG6 & the older RG59, and most houses already have the basic infrastructure in place. As long as there aren't hidden barrels or splitters in the wall, most coax will work just fine for this.

2) The max number of TVs you can possibly install on one FibeTV service is 6. Absolutely no more (unless you install a 2nd service of course). Any more and you will start getting problems.

3) Although you're limited by the number of ethernet ports on the back of the modem for the number of TVs you can have running off ethernet, it is possible to run all 6 TVs off of the coax, not just 4. Although rarely used, 6-way HPNA splitters are an option.

4) There is no wireless set top box option *yet*. I've heard initial trials didn't meet with much success, but recently heard there may be something coming down the pipe, but nothing yet

Hope this helps.


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1

3 edits

said by RPT4Life:

Good drawing Rick. There's a couple small things you should know / change.
. . .
Hope this helps.

Thanks, RPT4Life. Your suggestions have been added to the latest version of the drawing, attached.

This drawing my still contain errors

Please post any errors and/or suggestions and I'll update the drawing as needed.

If you double click on the drawing, it will appear larger. Use the back button to go back to the previous page




Rick

RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to vtanyav

A follow-up:

While network switches can be bought at almost any computer store and cable TV splitters can be bought from The Source (Bell Canada owned) or Home Depot and other stores, hpna splitters may need to be purchased online.

One company that sells Holland devices is online at www.techtoolsupply.com.

The link for Holland hpna splitters is here:

»www.techtoolsupply.com/SearchRes···plitters

Rick



vtanyav

@rogers.com
reply to RickStep

Hi RickStep,
I Am REALLY SORRY for this inexcusable delay!
I appreciate the diagram

QUESTIONS

"Ground added from within building usually to a cold water pipe where the pipe enters the building. An alternative is the building ground at the electrical supply panel"

There is a "wire" (Grey, looks like a phone line) running from ?Tar paper" (I could tear the "tar paper" down) at the exterior wall (*could* be coming from the location that the BW enters building.) to the water meter.
1. Is this the same theory as what I should have now?
2. Could the wire be telephone wire related?
(Bell Canada techs *ignored* it.)
3. Should I take photos?

"Wireless TV boxes may be affected by the area where you live. If your area has many wireless users, there may not be enough spare (unused) channels to prevent signal drop outs"
I though FIBE was supposed to be safe from this?
(According to Bell)

"... Wireless phone systems are available with a wired base unit and 5 wireless phones ..."

Where?

said by RickStep:

A follow-up:

While network switches can be bought at almost any computer store and cable TV splitters can be bought from The Source (Bell Canada owned) or Home Depot and other stores, hpna splitters may need to be purchased online.

One company that sells Holland devices is online at www.techtoolsupply.com.

The link for Holland hpna splitters is here:

»www.techtoolsupply.com/SearchRes···plitters

Rick

Thanks - I have to shop online)

RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to vtanyav

You shouldn't need to deal with/worry about the ground especially if a new demarcation is installed. The Bell tech should be able to identify a ground within the building and make the installation safe. As far as an old Bell entrance is concerned, all issues are in play, where is it, will the old Bell wiring work properly and is the ground still connected properly.
Simply; ????????????????

Wireless phones are available "everywhere"; Best Buy/Future Shop, The Source, Canadian Tire, Canada Computers, Wal-Mart for new items and Factory Direct (www.factorydirect.ca for refurbished items and store locations) and others.

As for the availability of wireless Fibe TV, you would need to talk to a Bell rep. Wireless TV over Internet is new/future and it may only be available in certain locations if Bell has made it available at all at this point in time.

TV over RG-6 or Ethernet is a reality.

Rick