| [Homephone] How to Locate a residential NID and FIBE 1. Bell Canada has spent over 1 month (actually I have) NOT being able to find the Network Interface Device (NID) in my house (which they installed ~ possibly 40 years ago).
They finally allowed the buried wire service to locate the area of entry into the house but cannot (or will not) trace it further
There has been no renovation but Bell says I have to have the walls torn apart...
Now BELL tells me that 1 of the technicians said the NID was hidden in the ceiling. (I was NEVER told this) and that I have to get someone to tear down all the ceiling drywall in each room to find it.
Is there anything UNIQUE about telephone wire (cable) that can be picked up on some sort of instrument so they can trace the wire / cable inside the house? (from where it enters the house?)
(The box is inside)
2. If the NID is never found, if I had BELL install FIBE, how would they access each jack (there are about 10 or so) withOUT me having to use wireless? |
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 andybPremium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
kudos:1 | Call and get fibe then they can cut a put a proper NID on the outside and wire the phones etc from there.As for finding it inside its never more than a few feet from where it enters the building.(in a house). |
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RickStepPremium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1 | reply to vtanyav
1. The economics would dictate that Bell needs to install a new NID in a proper place for the structure.
2. The home owner would then be required to connect to the building wiring.
I would suggest that it may be a whole lot cheaper to have Bell install a new NID then decide how and where to tie into the old wiring.
IF everything concentrates eventually in a ceiling somewhere, the issue is can you abandon all the old wiring and rewire.
Older home have many wires that are unused and not needed, such that if the wiring is not removed (or abandoned) the old wiring will really degrade high speed Internet.
The choice is yours.
Under current rules (good rules); Bell has to provide a demarcation point. You will have to resolve the issues beyond the NID (demarcation block), and any wiring in the structure.
Rick |
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| reply to andyb
Thank you andyb and RickStep
said by RickStep:I would suggest that it may be a whole lot cheaper to have Bell install a new NID then decide how and where to tie into the old wiring.
How without the NID?
Under current rules (good rules); Bell has to provide a demarcation point. You will have to resolve the issues beyond the NID (demarcation block), and any wiring in the structure.
Problem: There are a lot of used jacks in the house which we want to keep.
We don't want wireless.
Physically how can they upgrade each (already installed and payed for) jack to FIBE?
And as you mention the old wiring would interfere with FIBE?
I am fine having them install a new NID but do not want to pay a fortune to upgrade the old jacks.
One of the BELL technicians told me that only 1 or 2 jacks need to be wireless to allow all of the jacks to work with FIBE????
tHANKS |
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| reply to vtanyav
They won't "upgrade" each jack to Fibe. Only one jack will work for Fibe Tv and Internet.
Fow the wirecare, Bell will repair your existing wiring and/or jacks. If you're wire are behind the walls, don't count on them to replace the wire inside. They will staple on the wall. |
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 PaoloMr. Wireless
join:2004-05-29
canada | onestly, wirecare is no different than hiring a contractor, may cost u just as msuch, however if u really "really" need proper jacks, just hire someone or do it yourself, its not hard, i did my hole hosue myself
--
Happiness is like peeing your pants... Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its Warmth!! |
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| reply to phily316
Thanks phily316:
They won't "upgrade" each jack to Fibe. Only one jack will work for Fibe Tv and Internet.
I need TV and INTERNET in several rooms
Fow the wirecare, Bell will repair your existing wiring and/or jacks. If you're wire are behind the walls, don't count on them to replace the wire inside. They will staple on the wall.
Thanks Paolo:
onestly, wirecare is no different than hiring a contractor, may cost u just as msuch,
however if u really "really" need proper jacks, just hire someone or do it yourself, its not hard, i did my hole hosue myself
I want to change to BELL FIBE from the "other company" here.
I want to have internet and CABLE with BELL) I only have telephone with BELL right now.
I want to keep the jacks that have been installed. I cannot afford to have all the jacks redone. I don't want wireless for the telephone.
I assume one cannot use the regular phone line for the phones and have FIBE only for TV and Internet?
The technician (1 of them) told me that I would only need 1 or 2 wireless phones for all the jacks to function without wireless.
Thank you. |
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SLAMtech
join:2009-12-03
London, ON
kudos:1 | reply to vtanyav
This is a problem that is seen more frequently as older homes get renovated.
In order to make fibe TV and fibe internet work properly you will 100% need a pots splitter installed at the point of entry to eliminate bridge taps that ISW will create and eliminate filters.
Basically there needs to be a NID installed where the BSW goes into your home. There the bsw can be cut leaving enough slack coming out of your home to insert it into the NID to tie in all your ISW. The BSW can be spliced or a temp can be run to insert the BSW into the Nid coming from the pedestal/encap.
From there a Pots Splitter insert can be installed in the NID and a dedicated line can be run from the NID to inside your home(requires drilling) for the DSL modem and Fibe TV.
One thing to point out is that if the carbon fuses ever blew where the inside protector is then all your jacks would be screwed and you would be forced to tear down some drywall to get those back in service. |
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RickStepPremium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
3 edits | reply to vtanyav
We are trying to help and you are either not listening or don’t understand.
Telephone wiring at a basic level is very simple. There are only 2 wires required to carry a signal plus a ground for safety.
For a phone circuit really, really bad wiring has no impact on the voice circuit on the telephone. A voice circuit requires no more than 2.5 KHz. A 50 plus years ago specification.
Today; it is possible to transmit TV over copper wire and the quality of the wiring in any home has to conform to today’s requirements not from 50 years ago.
Home wiring today needs to be able to transfer signals at speeds at least 2000 times that required for voice only circuits on a 5 mega bit per second service and 10,000 times on 25 mega bit per second service (at the least to the input of the modem). Cables coming out of the modem need to comply with Ethernet standards not Bell standards. Ethernet reqires 4 pair (8 wires) not 1 pair (2 wires).
The issues are these:
1. Old house wiring is a combination of star wiring and loop wiring.
2. Star wiring starts at a point and goes in several directions. If there are unused points on the star, or a star line is extended and there is no device at the end, the unused wires are antennas that really screw up the system.
3. If your house has a loop installed the problem is worse. Bell used to wire a home by anchoring one end of the inside wire cable at the Bell service entrance point and run the wire through the home; leaving loops in each room and ending at the starting point. Connection boxes were installed where the loops were in each room. When the installation was finished the telephone signal could go either way on the wires to any phone. The rationale was that if a wire were cut; the signal would always have a path to the phone.
4. The losses on loop type wiring on a high speed circuit are huge and if the loop is deliberately cut to fix the problem; any wiring past the last device must also be cut.
There are 2 points here that need to be made to clear some of this up.
Bell Canada needs a verifiable entry point into the building; and the home owner is not supposed to bury it somewhere. Bell has no obligation to go looking for it.
A new entry point for Bell, i.e. the installation of a new demarcation point with a pots splitter fixes Bell’s commitment.
You, the home owner now has to decide what to do to bring the home wiring up to a standard suitable for high speed Internet plus TV.
Since you have wire care; you must either convince Bell that they (Bell) have to upgrade the wiring in the home, or you pay for it yourself.
The choices are the following:
1. Install all new wiring
2. Tie into the old wiring; keeping in mind that you will need to find the old NID and remove all unused un-terminated wires.
Many installers today use Ethernet cat 5E cable (now Cat 6) for in house wiring. The minimum is cat 3. The existing house wiring simply called Bell System indoor wiring is below cat 3.
Simply abandon the old wiring and rewire, or break a hole and locate the old NID and cleanup the best you can.
PLEASE, keep this in mind. IF you choose to break a hole and clean up the old wiring the best that you can, testing on the circuit may still not pass the requirements for TV in every room and you may still need to rewire anyway.
There is also a wireless way to do this is if you want to reconsider wireless.
Rick |
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| reply to vtanyav
SLAMtech is 100% correct. Fibe can easily installed as per his methods even though your inside "nid" cannot be found however, as he stated later on if your telephone wiring goes bad or the hidden "nid" blows it's carbons then you will either have to break open the ceiling to find it or just abandon your jacks. IMHO covering up basement ceilings with drywall is the worst thing anyone could do because simple things turn into big headaches like this one. |
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| reply to vtanyav
said by vtanyav : I think Wirecare is about $2.00 a month - Contractors are far more here. Wirecare is around $7.00 and you need a year commitment on a repair. Bell stats show that the rate of return amortized over the average ISW repair is $1500.00. It' cheaper to hire a one time private repair tech like me. There is a way to trace the NID to within a few inches and people hire me to do it all the time. Then trace the circuits that it's not economical to re-fish and consolidate with new cat. 5 or 3. |
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| reply to SLAMtech
said by SLAMtech:This is a problem that is seen more frequently as older homes get renovated…
…by moronic contractors or cheap ignorant homeowners which proceed to wall in things such as NIDS, access panels, valves, electrical devices, etc. which require access, periodic maintenance or eventual replacement/upgrade.
Fixed for truthyness. |
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| reply to SLAMtech
said by SLAMtech:This is a problem that is seen more frequently as older homes get renovated.
There has not been any renovation in the basement.
Basically there needs to be a NID installed
where the BSW goes into your home. There the bsw can be cut leaving enough slack coming out of your home to insert it into the NID to tie in all your ISW. The BSW can be spliced or a temp can be run to insert the BSW into the Nid coming from the pedestal/encap.
From there a Pots Splitter insert can be installed in the NID and a dedicated line can be run from the NID to inside your home(requires drilling) for the DSL modem and Fibe TV.
One thing to point out is that if the carbon fuses ever blew where the inside protector is then all your jacks would be screwed and you would be forced to tear down some drywall to get those back in service.
The Buried wire service (BWS(?)) has traced the wire from the phone POLE TO THE exterior of the house.
I do not understand some of the above ... But essentially there would be 2 NIDs? (1 which is already installed (not located) and a new one for the Ethernet cat 5E cable (now Cat 6)?)
Thank you |
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| reply to RickStep
said by RickStep:We are trying to help and you are either not listening or don’t understand.
The latter.
Telephone wiring at a basic level is very simple. There are only 2 wires required to carry a signal plus a ground for safety.
For a phone circuit really, really bad wiring has no impact on the voice circuit on the telephone. A voice circuit requires no more than 2.5 KHz. A 50 plus years ago specification.
Today; it is possible to transmit TV over copper wire
"BK Precision 262 Cable Tester at Test Equipment and More"
»www.testequipmentandmore.com/BK_···262.html
Be specific enough to trace the wire from the approximate location of the buried wire (phone pole -> OUTside the house) - To start from INside the house to the NID? (extrapolating the point of entry)
and the quality of the wiring in any home has to conform to today’s requirements not from 50 years ago.
The issues are these:
1. Old house wiring is a combination of star wiring and loop wiring.
2. Star wiring starts at a point and goes in several directions. If there are unused points on the star, or a star line is extended and there is no device at the end, the unused wires are antennas that really screw up the system.
3. If your house has a loop installed the problem is worse. Bell used to wire a home by anchoring one end of the inside wire cable at the Bell service entrance point and run the wire through the home; leaving loops in each room and ending at the starting point. Connection boxes were installed where the loops were in each room. When the installation was finished the telephone signal could go either way on the wires to any phone. The rationale was that if a wire were cut; the signal would always have a path to the phone.
4. The losses on loop type wiring on a high speed circuit are huge and if the loop is deliberately cut to fix the problem; any wiring past the last device must also be cut.
How can one tell which was used?
There are 2 points here that need to be made to clear some of this up.
Bell Canada needs a verifiable entry point into the building; and the home owner is not supposed to bury it somewhere. Bell has no obligation to go looking for it.
A new entry point for Bell, i.e. the installation of a new demarcation point with a pots splitter fixes Bell’s commitment.
You, the home owner now has to decide what to do to bring the home wiring up to a standard suitable for high speed Internet plus TV.
Since you have wire care; you must either convince Bell that they (Bell) have to upgrade the wiring in the home, or you pay for it yourself.
The choices are the following:
1. Install all new wiring
2. Tie into the old wiring; keeping in mind that you will need to find the old NID and remove all unused un-terminated wires.
Many installers today use Ethernet cat 5E cable (now Cat 6) for in house wiring. The minimum is cat 3. The existing house wiring simply called Bell System indoor wiring is below cat 3.
Simply abandon the old wiring and rewire, or break a hole and locate the old NID and cleanup the best you can.
Would there be any advantage in locating the old NID if the wiring for the whole house was changed?
Thanks |
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| reply to xbell
said by xbell :said by vtanyav : I think Wirecare is about $2.00 a month - Contractors are far more here. Wirecare is around $7.00 and you need a year commitment on a repair. Bell stats show that the rate of return amortized over the average ISW repair is $1500.00. It' cheaper to hire a one time private repair tech like me. There is a way to trace the NID to within a few inches and people hire me to do it all the time. I already have wire care.
Thanks |
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| reply to llort
said by llort :SLAMtech is 100% correct. Fibe can easily installed as per his methods even though your inside "nid" cannot be found however, as he stated later on if your telephone wiring goes bad or the hidden "nid" blows it's carbons then you will either have to break open the ceiling to find it or just abandon your jacks.
Thanks
I need something that could follow the phone wire from the outside (extrapolation where it comes into the house) to the approximate location of the CURRENT NID?
"BK Precision 262 Cable Tester at Test Equipment and More"
»www.testequipmentandmore.com/BK_···262.html |
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RickStepPremium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1 | reply to vtanyav
I will draw a diagram later or late this evening.
A picture really is worth a 1000 words and may help you better understand the issues; but you may not see it until tomorrow.
Rick |
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SLAMtech
join:2009-12-03
London, ON
kudos:1 | reply to vtanyav
I'm just stating what I would do to install service at your house and as i can see is the only proper way to do so.
You don't have a NID inside, it is called an inside protector that is grounded for liability and safety. If I can't find it, I am definitely not taking responsibility for tearing down drywall, I would just leave it be. I would install your service exactly as stated above. Regardless all your phone jacks will still work and as long as there is no major metallic issues we all walk away happy.
Your ISW is beyond the pots splitter so it will have no effect on your sync or fibe TV service pending no major metallics. You need a dedicated pair for your service and hell if you wanted phone as well I would wire up a secondary pair for phone and place a dual jack. This way if your already installed isw bites the dust we would just disconnect it and you would still have a working phone jack in the meantime.
Usually it is only a few feet from where it enters the house but that is not always the case. Your best bet is to cut a small hole in the basement at the point of entry and use a flashlight and see if you can find it. You can buy access panels at a hardware store to cover it up. |
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RickStepPremium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
4 edits | reply to vtanyav
The orginal v1.0 drawing posted here has been removed
The current v2.0 drawing is in a newer post; a later post.
Rick |
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RickStepPremium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1 | reply to vtanyav
Some additional information:
If I recall correctly, there are installations where Bell will automatically send out a technician.
If I am correct it is any time a Sagemcom modem is required for high speed Internet; speeds at 16 MHz. and higher and for the installation of Fibe TV.
I believe bell will replace the demarcation point, and upgrade the wiring at their expense. How this is done, I can't answer. How many places that Bell will install for TV boxes, I can't answer. Cogeco will install up to 4.
When I worked at Bell years & years ago; Bell taught us how to fish wiring into walls as opposed to running new wiring on the surface (along baseboards). If the basement is finished, it’s not Bell’s problem.
Feel free to post back, it’s Christmas soon and my responses may be erratic.
If you send me a private message that you posted here; Instant Messages are forwarded to my email address. I’ll know that you posted and my response will be here in this thread.
Rick |
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