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voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Discussion about log retention

Hey Marc, what'sup?

Just hoping to hear from ya in here.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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reply to syntaxerr0r

said by syntaxerr0r:

I'm also in favour of zero logs. I don't like the idea of all my whereabouts being recorded in general, the internet is no exception.

Unfortunately i do not see this happening since Teksavvy is basically in support of handing over the information "legally". They have zero issues handing over logs, and considering they themselves considered an extension of an additional 90 day on top of their current 90 day they have no plans to protect any of TSI customers.

Ignore the fact i said protect. It's not just about protecting, the reasoning behind the extended logs for "police" and such is horse poop. Other ISP's world wide manage with 2 weeks to NONE. Until there is a law forcing x(days) retention on all logging i see absolutely zero reason for it.

almost 3 years of growing pains. Wait times still high and i guarantee this crap is only making their lines busier and an ISP that has zero plans to protect their customers. Protecting their customers has nothing to do with protecting criminals. It's about what's right. It is our right to be protected by you unless their is irrefutable proof, not just an internet protocol address

Now again that word protect. Ok, don't object to the current 2300 IPs, but you can protect your customers in a different way. Not their piracy, but simply their privacy. Stop logging. How no one see's the fact that Teksavvy believes in this practice (law is the law and we dont mind handing over information as long as it's done by the law) is beyond me.

Honestly feel sorry for those who are innocent. Even those who are guilty of it. You'll be treated like a murderer, if not worse. Biggest crime to humanity!

Marc, stop logging. Set a precedence in this country and gain a notoriety for doing the right thing. Doing so does not make you a pirate ISP. It make's you a ISP that gives two shits about their customers, not just saying you do.

I am also not willing to trade my freedoms for police enforcement to have access to something 6 months ago. Police should not depend on an ISP's logging practices to go after someone. It's not the ISP's job, and as the ISP, pretending you're doing due service in return giving up your customers is unfortunate.


fa132435

@ipredator.se
reply to TSI Marc

hi everyone, reading teksavvy forums, can not find info on what exactly is logged by tsi for unlimited accounts and what is logged for metered accounts. anyone knows that info? thx


MZB

join:2010-11-25
Dunrobin, ON

My 2 cents worth:

For privacy reasons, TSI should log the minimum amount to get its job done:

•Billing related technical information (connections, bytes transferred). Long enough to handle a billing enquiry. Given a billing cycle of 1 month, this info needs to be retained for approximately two months to allow handling of an I-did-not-use-300GB-last-month-yes-you-did type dispute. (If this type of dispute never happens, or is always resolved as a goodwill measure in the customer's favour, then this information need not be retained any longer than more detailed technical logs (below).

•More detailed technical logs. 1 week or less. I doubt anybody complains about service received more than a few days after the event. (And even if they do, the situation has probably changed significantly by that time).

•Statistical summaries. Indefinitely. If there is a trend in faults, dropped sync , increased usage, etc you need the statistics information to detect it.

•Repair or problem related logs. Indefinitely. Experience suggests that if a Bell telephone line fails, it's often due to the same problem recurring. I imagine this is true of Cable too.



ekster
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reply to TSI Marc

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

And if they do that, they will definitely not go gentle on the time and ask for 30 days or something like that. They'd want logs kept for a year or two.



Tx
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said by ekster:

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

And if they do that, they will definitely not go gentle on the time and ask for 30 days or something like that. They'd want logs kept for a year or two.

If the government wants this they'll do it... they won't wait until ISP's stop logging to do it. No logging is a growing practice around the world. Governments would be over-stepping to even try and suggest how a business should conduct it's business

MaynardKrebs
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join:2009-06-17
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reply to ekster

said by ekster:

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

And if they do that, they will definitely not go gentle on the time and ask for 30 days or something like that. They'd want logs kept for a year or two.

They don't need to.
Sandvine will sell the gov't. all the DPI gear they want to catch you in real-time.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to ekster

said by ekster:

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

That's their problem. In the end we need to stand up and do something about it now before it starts. Once they start and the people scream, nothing ever happens about it, the screaming just eventually goes down. Get your foot in the door first.


EUS
Kill cancer
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reply to ekster

said by ekster:

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

And if they do that, they will definitely not go gentle on the time and ask for 30 days or something like that. They'd want logs kept for a year or two.

In the short term that might be a good thing as this issue would be in the public eye where it belongs.
Long term however, come TPP time, all of this will most likely be made moot, the rules will be dictated.
--
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fa13243546

@noisetor.net
reply to TSI Marc

still got no answer and can not find that info here: what exactly is logged by tsi for unlimited accounts and what is logged for metered accounts. anyone knows that info? thx


Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12
reply to TSI Marc

The fact that TSI keeps logs for 90 days when it is not required by law is sufficient reason for me to drop them if I can find a competitor that retains logs for less time. I'm sooo sick and tired of the "if you have nothing to hide it shouldn't bother you" mentality. I'd be a fool to pay to perpetuate it.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TSI Marc

I have a feeling all this chatter is moot. TSI has gone silent on a discussion they started. Not good sign.

My points and position still stand.


Ree

join:2007-04-29
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reply to fa13243546

said by fa13243546 :

still got no answer and can not find that info here: what exactly is logged by tsi for unlimited accounts and what is logged for metered accounts. anyone knows that info? thx

I haven't read every post in every thread, but I believe the only two knowns at this point are:

1) They log which IP address belongs to you at any given time
2) They don't log specific details of your traffic (ie they track how much you download, and when, but not what, so for example a 10MB youtube video and a 10MB youporn video look the same in the log)

I don't see any reason that a metered and unlimited account would be treated any differently, so assume there's no difference between the two for logging purposes.


creed3020
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reply to voxframe

Marc did say he wanted to create a new blog posted summarizing whats happened in the past week or two to catch everyone up. I suspect between actually doing his job and word smithing that blog post he's pretty busy.

Personally, I'd like to see logs kept for 15 days. I also like what others have suggested that actual business data related to data usage be stripped from the logs to their unique purpose. I have no issue with TSI tracking usage, that is their business after all.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TSI Marc

I would simply like to know what's his feel on a short retention time.

Is it something he's looking into, or is it simply something that's not up for discussion.

He's responded and created a few posts on here already, so this one should have had a hit by now.



TSI Marc
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I'm reading... not ignoring.
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voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TSI Marc

Thanks

The big question I'm wondering, is what are you thinking.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to ekster

said by ekster:

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

»ACTA Is Dead In Europe

Not that this is really on the same grounds... But it's just another kick in the teeth to the copyright trolls when they tried to push legislation.


TwiztedZero
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said by voxframe:

said by ekster:

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

»ACTA Is Dead In Europe

Not that this is really on the same grounds... But it's just another kick in the teeth to the copyright trolls when they tried to push legislation.

Just keep in the back of your mind theres yet another teeth kicking movement they're trying to do an end run around with called the Trans Pacific Partnership. While we're fairly certain won't impact things as they stand right now. It'll definitely play a substantial part a year or two down the road, when ever and if it gets ratified.
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Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12
reply to TSI Marc

Excerpts from a recent article at torrentfreaks showing how the Australians see it. Full article can be found at »torrentfreak.com/isp-walks-out-o···-121217/

ISP WALKS OUT OF PIRACY TALKS: “WE’RE NOT THE INTERNET POLICE”
December 17, 2012

A leading Australian Internet service provider has pulled out of negotiations to create a warning notice scheme aimed at reducing online piracy.

iiNet, the ISP that was sued by Hollywood after refusing to help chase down alleged infringers, said that it can’t make any progress with righthsolders if they don’t make their content freely available at a reasonable price. The ISP adds that holding extra data on customers’ habits is inappropriate and not their responsibility.

In many countries around the world the entertainment industries are attempting to engage Internet service providers in their battle against online piracy.

The music and movie industries have persuaded some to begin sending warning notifications to subscribers which advise them that their infringing activities have been monitored. In addition to a few less high-profile projects, large scale schemes are underway in France, New Zealand and a similar operation is about to launch in the United States.

In other countries negotiations have been less fruitful. Australia became a notable failure after discussions on infringement developed into parallel legal action against an ISP. The Hollywood-affiliated video industry there thought it could convince a court to hold the ISP iiNet responsible for the activities of alleged infringers. It couldn’t.

......................................................................

But while the lack of timely and reasonably-priced content is a serious flaw, that is only part of the problem.

Any notice scheme requires ISPs to store data which ties their customers to alleged infringements which of course has privacy implications. Over in the United States there have been concerns that the information gathered as part of “six strikes” could be used for more than just warnings. Sure enough, last week it was revealed that the data voluntarily retained by ISPs could end up being used to file lawsuits against customers.

According to Dalby, this will not happen at iiNet.

“iiNet won’t support any scheme that forces ISPs to retain data in order to allow for the tracking of customer behaviour and the status of any alleged infringements against them. Collecting and retaining additional customer data at this level is inappropriate, expensive and most importantly, not our responsibility,” Dalby says.

And this – the issue of responsibility – rounds off iiNet’s comprehensive rejection and exit from the talks.

“It’s not iiNet’s job to play online police. The High Court spoke loud and clear in their verdict when they ruled categorically that ISPs have no obligation to protect the rights of third parties, and we’re not prepared to harass our customers when the industry has no clear obligation to do so,” Dalby states.

It will be a serious concern, particularly to the Hollywood studios, that not only has it proven impossible to force iiNet to comply through the courts, but that negotiation on the issue of piracy has failed too. It is now up to rightsholders to make the next move.

“Hollywood, you know where we are. It’s time to change the tune,” Dalby concludes.


TraderOne

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc

I have been with Teksavvy for more than 3 years. I have to say I am very disappointed at the way that Teksavvy handled the Voltage's litigation.

It does not look like to me that Teksavvy cares about its customers' privacy at all. Notifying its customers and telling them to f**k off is not a responsible way to handle the case when Teksavvy logs its customers' IP for 90 days without any good reasons.

If some one can tell me an ISP who has Log retention less than 2 weeks, I will switch.


wingedhorsey

join:2012-12-22
Montreal, QC
reply to TSI Marc

I'll be short, Mark: in the long run, the length of your log retention will be the inverse function of your customer retention. Something like this:

Cr = K / Lr

where Cr is customer retention, Lr - log retention and K is a constant.

If you implement the 6-month retention policy, you will have to hide this in small print, as none of the sane(*) potential customers will like this.

If you reduce it to 1 month or less, you could even advertise this as a selling point of the service, as you will be ahead of the competition.

So use your judgement.

- A TekSavvy subscriber

(*) In general, at least 95% of people are sane.


MaynardKrebs
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said by wingedhorsey:

(*) In general, at least 95% of people are sane.

Then 'splain how Harper got elected.

He'll will soon be bringing you the TPP - Trans-Pacific Partnership - which will *criminalize* just about all 'copyright infringement', including removal of fair use rights and no 'format shifting' even for disability use. He's also the same guy who wants DPI at every ISP.


TwiztedZero
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1 edit

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by wingedhorsey:

(*) In general, at least 95% of people are sane.

Then 'splain how Harper got elected.

He'll will soon be bringing you the TPP - Trans-Pacific Partnership - which will *criminalize* just about all 'copyright infringement', including removal of fair use rights and no 'format shifting' even for disability use. He's also the same guy who wants DPI at every ISP.

Time Remaining: 2 years, 9 months, 26 days, 22 hours, 45 minutes until we can attempt to get rid of Harper once and for all! Voters in Canada will go to the polls on Monday, October 19, 2015. Oh I can't wait for Election Day!

The only problem is the TPP damage would be damn near irreversable by then. :( and thats not going to be a good thing.

At this point I don't have any confidence in the Gov(s) involved with TPP of placing fair checks & balances on this secret partnership deal.
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Ree

join:2007-04-29
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reply to wingedhorsey

said by wingedhorsey:

If you implement the 6-month retention policy, you will have to hide this in small print, as none of the sane(*) potential customers will like this.

If you're sampling from DSLR users then it may seem like the majority of people wouldn't like this, but in reality DSLR users are the minority and the real majority of users probably won't care.

Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want.

Sure, if I was one of the accused, and especially if I was one of the falsely accused, then I might feel different. But I have a hunch the truly falsely accused (those where the IP address didn't share copyrighted material at all) are few and far between so I'm not really worried about that happening to me.

And I have little sympathy for the arguably falsely accused (those where the person whose name is on the bill didn't share the copyrighted material, so they're claiming/feigning ignorance of what their friends/family are doing with their internet connection, or those who were hacked and abused as a proxy), so I'm not too concerned about that either.

So yeah, keep a history of my IP addresses for as long as you want Teksavvy (well technically I don't have a say since I'm not a customer anymore, but once you light up Brantford for cable I'll be back!)

swampboy

join:2012-01-24
Hamilton, ON

"Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want."

In case you haven't been following this case, Teksavvy already admitted they notified 42 customers in error. This kind of error could get YOU sued for no valid reason. I guess you know legal costs are a bit higher than ISP service and in a civil case it's a crap shoot if you win or lose. The little guy will likely lose unless they can get a large team of lawyers and experts on their side. Still think you want to take a gamble on log retention?



Tx
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said by swampboy:

"Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want."

In case you haven't been following this case, Teksavvy already admitted they notified 42 customers in error. This kind of error could get YOU sued for no valid reason. I guess you know legal costs are a bit higher than ISP service and in a civil case it's a crap shoot if you win or lose. The little guy will likely lose unless they can get a large team of lawyers and experts on their side. Still think you want to take a gamble on log retention?

Seems many people should be also claiming ignorance because they are happy to say that yet not realize a mistake was already made. Yes it was caught, but the mistake happened and leaves the "What if" aspect if it wasn't caught.

It's really easy to say it when it wasn't them mistakenly notified. Imagine if these same people did get notified and pleaded their innocence just like everyone in prison is innocent right?

Happy fighting it in court. Enjoy the costs associated with it even if proven innocent and the time it takes to fight it.


Tx
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reply to Ree

said by Ree:

said by wingedhorsey:

If you implement the 6-month retention policy, you will have to hide this in small print, as none of the sane(*) potential customers will like this.

If you're sampling from DSLR users then it may seem like the majority of people wouldn't like this, but in reality DSLR users are the minority and the real majority of users probably won't care.

Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want.

Sure, if I was one of the accused, and especially if I was one of the falsely accused, then I might feel different. But I have a hunch the truly falsely accused (those where the IP address didn't share copyrighted material at all) are few and far between so I'm not really worried about that happening to me.

And I have little sympathy for the arguably falsely accused (those where the person whose name is on the bill didn't share the copyrighted material, so they're claiming/feigning ignorance of what their friends/family are doing with their internet connection, or those who were hacked and abused as a proxy), so I'm not too concerned about that either.

So yeah, keep a history of my IP addresses for as long as you want Teksavvy (well technically I don't have a say since I'm not a customer anymore, but once you light up Brantford for cable I'll be back!)

Dig your head in the sand a little further.

Are you lazy or just haven't seen half the discussions over the last week or ever read the news?

People like you i'd laugh at if you were ever mistakenly notified and truly innocent.


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
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reply to Ree

said by Ree:

But I have a hunch the truly falsely accused (those where the IP address didn't share copyrighted material at all) are few and far between so I'm not really worried about that happening to me.

Then you are totally misinformed about the issue and should have read up on what has already happened and the technology involved in collecting IP data before commenting....
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Ree

join:2007-04-29
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reply to TSI Marc

I'm well aware a mistake was made, but it wasn't in the data collection (unless there were other mistakes, which in that case I have not read of them), but in the way Teksavvy matched IPs to users.

This type of mistake doesn't need to go all the way to court to be corrected. If someone was really innocent (or believed they were), I'm sure they'd be getting in touch with Teksavvy to find out WTF is going on.

And this is exactly why I'd like to come back to Teksavvy. I have no doubt that Teksavvy would take my complaint and look into the matter, and realize they transposed an octet of my IP with someone else (or whatever the issue was), and correct the situation.

I also have no doubt that my current ISP would NOT look into the matter as readily or thoroughly as Teksavvy would, so everyone thinking about leaving Teksavvy over this needs to think twice.