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TraderOne

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Discussion about log retention

I have been with Teksavvy for more than 3 years. I have to say I am very disappointed at the way that Teksavvy handled the Voltage's litigation.

It does not look like to me that Teksavvy cares about its customers' privacy at all. Notifying its customers and telling them to f**k off is not a responsible way to handle the case when Teksavvy logs its customers' IP for 90 days without any good reasons.

If some one can tell me an ISP who has Log retention less than 2 weeks, I will switch.

wingedhorsey

join:2012-12-22
Montreal, QC
reply to TSI Marc
I'll be short, Mark: in the long run, the length of your log retention will be the inverse function of your customer retention. Something like this:

Cr = K / Lr

where Cr is customer retention, Lr - log retention and K is a constant.

If you implement the 6-month retention policy, you will have to hide this in small print, as none of the sane(*) potential customers will like this.

If you reduce it to 1 month or less, you could even advertise this as a selling point of the service, as you will be ahead of the competition.

So use your judgement.

- A TekSavvy subscriber

(*) In general, at least 95% of people are sane.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
said by wingedhorsey:

(*) In general, at least 95% of people are sane.

Then 'splain how Harper got elected.

He'll will soon be bringing you the TPP - Trans-Pacific Partnership - which will *criminalize* just about all 'copyright infringement', including removal of fair use rights and no 'format shifting' even for disability use. He's also the same guy who wants DPI at every ISP.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

1 edit
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by wingedhorsey:

(*) In general, at least 95% of people are sane.

Then 'splain how Harper got elected.

He'll will soon be bringing you the TPP - Trans-Pacific Partnership - which will *criminalize* just about all 'copyright infringement', including removal of fair use rights and no 'format shifting' even for disability use. He's also the same guy who wants DPI at every ISP.

Time Remaining: 2 years, 9 months, 26 days, 22 hours, 45 minutes until we can attempt to get rid of Harper once and for all! Voters in Canada will go to the polls on Monday, October 19, 2015. Oh I can't wait for Election Day!

The only problem is the TPP damage would be damn near irreversable by then. :( and thats not going to be a good thing.

At this point I don't have any confidence in the Gov(s) involved with TPP of placing fair checks & balances on this secret partnership deal.
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

Ree

join:2007-04-29
h0h0h0
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to wingedhorsey
said by wingedhorsey:

If you implement the 6-month retention policy, you will have to hide this in small print, as none of the sane(*) potential customers will like this.

If you're sampling from DSLR users then it may seem like the majority of people wouldn't like this, but in reality DSLR users are the minority and the real majority of users probably won't care.

Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want.

Sure, if I was one of the accused, and especially if I was one of the falsely accused, then I might feel different. But I have a hunch the truly falsely accused (those where the IP address didn't share copyrighted material at all) are few and far between so I'm not really worried about that happening to me.

And I have little sympathy for the arguably falsely accused (those where the person whose name is on the bill didn't share the copyrighted material, so they're claiming/feigning ignorance of what their friends/family are doing with their internet connection, or those who were hacked and abused as a proxy), so I'm not too concerned about that either.

So yeah, keep a history of my IP addresses for as long as you want Teksavvy (well technically I don't have a say since I'm not a customer anymore, but once you light up Brantford for cable I'll be back!)

swampboy

join:2012-01-24
Hamilton, ON
"Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want."

In case you haven't been following this case, Teksavvy already admitted they notified 42 customers in error. This kind of error could get YOU sued for no valid reason. I guess you know legal costs are a bit higher than ISP service and in a civil case it's a crap shoot if you win or lose. The little guy will likely lose unless they can get a large team of lawyers and experts on their side. Still think you want to take a gamble on log retention?


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
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Reviews:
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said by swampboy:

"Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want."

In case you haven't been following this case, Teksavvy already admitted they notified 42 customers in error. This kind of error could get YOU sued for no valid reason. I guess you know legal costs are a bit higher than ISP service and in a civil case it's a crap shoot if you win or lose. The little guy will likely lose unless they can get a large team of lawyers and experts on their side. Still think you want to take a gamble on log retention?

Seems many people should be also claiming ignorance because they are happy to say that yet not realize a mistake was already made. Yes it was caught, but the mistake happened and leaves the "What if" aspect if it wasn't caught.

It's really easy to say it when it wasn't them mistakenly notified. Imagine if these same people did get notified and pleaded their innocence just like everyone in prison is innocent right?

Happy fighting it in court. Enjoy the costs associated with it even if proven innocent and the time it takes to fight it.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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reply to Ree
said by Ree:

said by wingedhorsey:

If you implement the 6-month retention policy, you will have to hide this in small print, as none of the sane(*) potential customers will like this.

If you're sampling from DSLR users then it may seem like the majority of people wouldn't like this, but in reality DSLR users are the minority and the real majority of users probably won't care.

Personally, I couldn't care less. Teksavvy isn't keeping track of what I do, just with what IP address I do it with (feel free to chime in if this is incorrect). I'm fine with them keeping this for 90 years if they want.

Sure, if I was one of the accused, and especially if I was one of the falsely accused, then I might feel different. But I have a hunch the truly falsely accused (those where the IP address didn't share copyrighted material at all) are few and far between so I'm not really worried about that happening to me.

And I have little sympathy for the arguably falsely accused (those where the person whose name is on the bill didn't share the copyrighted material, so they're claiming/feigning ignorance of what their friends/family are doing with their internet connection, or those who were hacked and abused as a proxy), so I'm not too concerned about that either.

So yeah, keep a history of my IP addresses for as long as you want Teksavvy (well technically I don't have a say since I'm not a customer anymore, but once you light up Brantford for cable I'll be back!)

Dig your head in the sand a little further.

Are you lazy or just haven't seen half the discussions over the last week or ever read the news?

People like you i'd laugh at if you were ever mistakenly notified and truly innocent.


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
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reply to Ree
said by Ree:

But I have a hunch the truly falsely accused (those where the IP address didn't share copyrighted material at all) are few and far between so I'm not really worried about that happening to me.

Then you are totally misinformed about the issue and should have read up on what has already happened and the technology involved in collecting IP data before commenting....
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Ree

join:2007-04-29
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reply to TSI Marc
I'm well aware a mistake was made, but it wasn't in the data collection (unless there were other mistakes, which in that case I have not read of them), but in the way Teksavvy matched IPs to users.

This type of mistake doesn't need to go all the way to court to be corrected. If someone was really innocent (or believed they were), I'm sure they'd be getting in touch with Teksavvy to find out WTF is going on.

And this is exactly why I'd like to come back to Teksavvy. I have no doubt that Teksavvy would take my complaint and look into the matter, and realize they transposed an octet of my IP with someone else (or whatever the issue was), and correct the situation.

I also have no doubt that my current ISP would NOT look into the matter as readily or thoroughly as Teksavvy would, so everyone thinking about leaving Teksavvy over this needs to think twice.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to swampboy
said by swampboy:

In case you haven't been following this case, Teksavvy already admitted they notified 42 customers in error. This kind of error could get YOU sued for no valid reason. I guess you know legal costs are a bit higher than ISP service and in a civil case it's a crap shoot if you win or lose. The little guy will likely lose unless they can get a large team of lawyers and experts on their side. Still think you want to take a gamble on log retention?

Teksavvy already admitted they notified 42 customers in error. This kind of error could get YOU sued for no valid reason. And in this instance TSI is checking and re-checking everything they do.

This is *EXACTLY* the reason TSI (an indeed all ISP's) should not be hanging onto logs for more than the barest minimum amount of time. Just imagine what will happen when IP address trolling becomes routine - most ISP's will simply will slap things together with minimal effort and review and *numerous* false positives will creep into the results reported to the trolls - with hundred/thousands of lives potentially financially crippled.

Just imagine how riled up people will get with their ISP's and MP's when falsely accused and forced to pay $20k .... and their son/daughter can't afford to go to university as a result.

Gotta wonder if the 39.62%* of the people who voted in the last election for Harper (or just 24.2% of eligible voters*) really wants this to happen.

* Source: Elections.ca

Ree

join:2007-04-29
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kudos:1
Reviews:
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said by MaynardKrebs:

Just imagine how riled up people will get with their ISP's and MP's when falsely accused and forced to pay $20k .... and their son/daughter can't afford to go to university as a result.

This is assuming they get the $20k they want.

As others have said it's quite likely that ignoring their extortion attempt will be the end of it. In the off-chance that it goes to court, it's also quite likely that people will find themselves paying something close to the minimum of $100 instead of the maximum of $5k (or the $20k they're quoting).

And if people do go to court and wind up owing peanuts, that should be the end of all this foolishness since it won't be profitable for them anymore.

So I agree people will be riled up if they're forced to pay $20k (whether they're falsely accused or not), but I'd bet against that ever happening.

Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12
said by Ree:



As others have said it's quite likely that ignoring their extortion attempt will be the end of it. In the off-chance that it goes to court, it's also quite likely that people will find themselves paying something close to the minimum of $100 instead of the maximum of $5k (or the $20k they're quoting).

No and no. If they sue you, one of these scenarios will likely play out:

a) you don't file a defense, they get default judgment for the $20K. A writ of execution can then be issued directing the Sheriff at the county where you live to seize and sell your property to enforce the judgment. They might also attempt to garnish your wages.

b) you grab the first lawyer you can get and file a defense. Unfortunately you only manage to refute the commercial infringement part of Voltage's claims. The judge finds against you in the amount of $500 for non-commercial infringement. You still have to pay your lawyer about $3,500 so you are on the hook for $4,000.

c) you get an experienced IP lawyer and mount a simple but effective defense. After a couple of court appearances the judge dismisses Voltage's claim against you. Your legal bills: $7,000.

d) you mount a very effective defense but are countered by Voltage's lawyers. A good deal of expert testimony is demanded. The case drags through the courts for months. Regardless of who prevails, your legal bills are now in the tens of thousands.

In none of these scenarios do you walk away paying $100. It's just not going to happen, because showing up to court will immediately put you in the hole $3,000, and it would be very, very unlikely for the judge to award you costs, unless Voltage's lawyers are complete idiots and bungle this horribly.

Who7

join:2012-12-18

1 recommendation

reply to TSI Marc
Here is a bit more reality....

The Conservatives were under intense pressure to change the law and some items changed are very positive. Basically Crappywood screamed that they will not make any more films in Canada unless there was more protection for their racket. Conservatives also left a gaping hole for all of this to go away. By NOT requiring log retention, they made it very easy for ISP to protect their customers. VERY, VERY, EASY.

Understand this, the courts will not issue blanket orders to keep logs because of privacy issues. They will only issue court orders for log retention if there is a serious criminal matter. The Conservatives will NOT change the legislation to mandatory log retention dates because it is wildly unpopular and makes them look like police state enablers. They will cite privacy laws as their defense to the industry of "we can't do that".

So Marc, I asked my lawyer, now you ask yours and stop playing the "we did our best". You are playing the victim card but in reality, your self serving log retention policy is enabling the trolls to victimize your customers. Or ex-customers.

Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12

1 edit
Bah, TSI should be glad to be rid of those pesky customers who didn't secure their routers and/or engaged in the unthinkable crime of watching a Voltage movie. Thus proving that Bell and Rogers were correct all along in their traffic shaping policies. Well, live and learn.

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to TSI Marc
I'ts up to us to rectify the situation with our $$$$$$.

I just sent an e-mail to broadlinenetworks, asking them about their log retention policies. I will post what they say in this forum.

Just for the record.....unlike TSI, I NEVER heard of that firm before but, given what is happening, unless TSI comes around and starts taking our privacy seriously, I'm moving.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02

1 recommendation

reply to TSI Marc
Marc, I'm glad you're listening to what's being said here. What's honestly not sitting well with me is you're not talking.

This is now really not sitting well with me and higher ups.

As a carrier, using TSI fiber to feed us, we're now taking steps to eliminate you guys from the equation. We've been accepted for both an ASN, and our IPs should be issued on the 26th. At this point we will make the arrangements to migrate onto our own IPs and off the block we have from you guys, specifically because everything that's happened lately, and the silence in this and other discussions.

No we're not going to kill our fiber feed from you guys, but at least we will be the only ones in control of our client's information and addresses. Won't prevent anyone from tapping off our entire feed from your end, but that would be expected anywhere we got our feed anyway.

Granted this is only a drop in the bucket, it's still another brick in the wall. I know you're busy, I know you're ripping your hair out, and from one sysadmin to another, I can't imagine the position you're in. But I need to make a move on the chess board and this is the only one that won't get my tail torn off.


QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
reply to syntaxerr0r
Before Watchmen Rorschach:

People happy being controlled being dominated.

Handing over the knife. The Responsibility.

But when it's used against them ... do they get what they deserve?

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to TSI Marc
I haven't read the whole thread because...well...I'm lazy and it's Christmas Eve...and a bottle of JD is staring at me with that come hither look. I hate it when it does that.

But as a private for profit enterprise your lawyers surely told you there is recent case law from the Federal Court in which both good faith and bad faith awards for damages for violations of PIPEDA are as high as $5000.00.

You got a request for 2000 IPs. Just a few mistakes can add up. Shorter logs = good business practice. You don't need an MBA for this but I'll send an invoice for one none the less.

wingedhorsey

join:2012-12-22
Montreal, QC
reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by wingedhorsey:

(*) In general, at least 95% of people are sane.

Then 'splain how Harper got elected.

He'll will soon be bringing you the TPP - Trans-Pacific Partnership - which will *criminalize* just about all 'copyright infringement', including removal of fair use rights and no 'format shifting' even for disability use. He's also the same guy who wants DPI at every ISP.

Let me guess... Perhaps, the alternatives were even more insane ? Sometimes, the only choice is to pick a subjectively lesser evil in an attempt to avoid something which would be even worse. But I certainly disagree with Harper on this issue.

Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12
I don't think anybody should be lobbying for zero retention logs. 2-4 weeks would be fair to meet the needs of law enforcement and would even give a chance to rights holders to defend their position, while minimizing larger fishing expeditions.

I suspect Voltage are pushing this case so as to either extinguish torrenting as a means of sharing/distributing content or turning it into a cash cow to them via lawsuits. Right now those willing to do so can funnel their traffic, including torrenting, via an anonymous VPN. It is anonymous because it keeps no logs, so the troll hits a dead end, regardless of how much it monitors.

If you push for zero retention of logs for ISP's, there'll be a justified outcry from law enforcement and others, who will join their voices to that of copyright trolls. You'll then see mandatory retention for logs, anonymous VPN's based in Canada would have to shut down or move out of the country, etc, etc.

We should strive to keep things fair to all parties involved, it's the Canadian way. Or was.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
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join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
said by Fuzzy285:

I suspect Voltage are pushing this case so as to either extinguish torrenting as a means of sharing/distributing content or turning it into a cash cow to them via lawsuits.

If thats the case, then Voltagetrolls should go after the bit torrent client authors and their distributors and leave the ordinary citizens alone. Endof.
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


anon234

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc
Could TSI state their policy is to release information only in criminal matters? As I understand it, infringement is a civil matter so, well.. you know

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

If thats the case, then Voltagetrolls should go after the bit torrent client authors and their distributors and leave the ordinary citizens alone. Endof.

Completely retarded. So then screwdriver manufactures should be sued because they can be used to kill people.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
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·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by 34764170:

said by TwiztedZero:

If thats the case, then Voltagetrolls should go after the bit torrent client authors and their distributors and leave the ordinary citizens alone. Endof.

Completely retarded. So then screwdriver manufactures should be sued because they can be used to kill people.

lol i was going to comment on his earlier and i said forget it... bit torrent wasn't created to facilitate piracy but so many people like to read in to the propaganda and believe everything they read.

Thought it was funny because first thing that came to mind was guns :/ Of which is a perfect example.


leave4priva

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc
TSI Marc - don't think of this as a legal question, think of it as a business problem. If you decide TSI should keep logs and especially if this legal action sets a precedent, I will be moving my business to the first decent ISP to offer privacy. There are technological solutions that free you from the need to keep logs. The law is on your side if you choose not to keep logs. Why do you want to keep logs? Who do you think your customer base is? How do you think TSI got to be such a big name ISP? If it wasn't for the downloaders where would TSI be? Who do you think will jump ship first to the first ISP willing to provide the service they are looking for?

greenrosetta

join:2011-06-05
Squamish, BC
reply to TSI Marc
TSI Marc;
Thank you for the open dialogue in regards to log retention, from a customer point of view I would prefer if you only kept logs for 48hrs. Better than none and just enough to service your business needs, anymore would be detrimental to your business due to trolls from the USA. The trolls are just another political picture that is transpiring in our homes from coast to coast.

Please stand up for all those who have supported you, in the long run this will set precedent. With all the attacks on the Internet, Online Spying Bill/TPP/SOPA/PIPA/UN Takeover. Teksavvy and Open Media are the last Frontier.


apvm

join:2003-02-14
London, ON
kudos:1
reply to Tx
I am with Tx all the way since he seems to be knowledgeable and knows what he is talking.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to greenrosetta
said by greenrosetta:

TSI Marc;
Thank you for the open dialogue...

Sorry but I hate to say it. There's been NO open dialogue here. Lot of un-answered questions, uneasy people, and bantering going back and forth... But zero open *two-way* dialogue here.

This doesn't jive with TSI's "mantra" at all.

m3chen

join:2009-12-03
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

4 edits
reply to TSI Marc
@TSI_Marc / All:

Here's a question for you / the judge of the current court case, as a result of this lawsuit against the un-named does, wouldn't it be possible under PIPEDA for users to send in a request to TekSavvy to see and have their private information be removed from such logs?

I / every TekSavvy customer (any ISP really) could request that their individual IP be deleted from such logs or databases because it contains data that could be used for other purposes other than what it was originally intended for (i.e. technical support vs potential court liability) and could be incorrect based on what TSI encountered in terms of its technical problems while gathering data for Voltage. This would be based on the fact that PIPEDA does allow for us (all teksavvy / other ISP customers) to request this to be done and since there were inaccuracies in the information gathering process for the trial which resulted in people being falsely notified.

Please do comment on this as I would be interested in creating a document that could be sent in every 90 days to request not only to see my data but have it corrected / removed if it did not meet PIPEDA guidelines.

BTW for those interested; PIPEDA defines IP addresses as being a part of personal information:

snippet of PIPEDA
"Your personal information includes your...

• name, race, ethnic origin, religion, marital status, educational level
• e-mail address and messages, IP (Internet protocol) address
• age, height, weight, medical records, blood type, DNA code, fingerprints, voiceprint
• income, purchases, spending habits, banking information, credit/debit card data, loan or credit reports, tax returns
• Social Insurance Number (SIN) or other identification numbers."


Snippet of "Your rights under PIPEDA"

PIPEDA requires private-sector organizations to collect, use or disclose your personal information by fair and lawful means, with your consent, and only for purposes that are stated and reasonable.

They’re also obliged to protect your personal information through appropriate security measures, and to destroy it when it’s no longer needed for the original purposes.

You have the right to expect the personal information the organization holds about you to be accurate, complete and up-to-date. That means you have a right to see it, and to ask for corrections if they got it wrong.

If you think an organization covered by PIPEDA is not living up to its obligations, you should try to address your concerns directly with the organization. If that doesn’t work, you have the option of lodging a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner.