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Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12
reply to wingedhorsey

Re: Discussion about log retention

I don't think anybody should be lobbying for zero retention logs. 2-4 weeks would be fair to meet the needs of law enforcement and would even give a chance to rights holders to defend their position, while minimizing larger fishing expeditions.

I suspect Voltage are pushing this case so as to either extinguish torrenting as a means of sharing/distributing content or turning it into a cash cow to them via lawsuits. Right now those willing to do so can funnel their traffic, including torrenting, via an anonymous VPN. It is anonymous because it keeps no logs, so the troll hits a dead end, regardless of how much it monitors.

If you push for zero retention of logs for ISP's, there'll be a justified outcry from law enforcement and others, who will join their voices to that of copyright trolls. You'll then see mandatory retention for logs, anonymous VPN's based in Canada would have to shut down or move out of the country, etc, etc.

We should strive to keep things fair to all parties involved, it's the Canadian way. Or was.



TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

said by Fuzzy285:

I suspect Voltage are pushing this case so as to either extinguish torrenting as a means of sharing/distributing content or turning it into a cash cow to them via lawsuits.

If thats the case, then Voltagetrolls should go after the bit torrent client authors and their distributors and leave the ordinary citizens alone. Endof.
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


anon234

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc

Could TSI state their policy is to release information only in criminal matters? As I understand it, infringement is a civil matter so, well.. you know


34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to TwiztedZero

said by TwiztedZero:

If thats the case, then Voltagetrolls should go after the bit torrent client authors and their distributors and leave the ordinary citizens alone. Endof.

Completely retarded. So then screwdriver manufactures should be sued because they can be used to kill people.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by 34764170:

said by TwiztedZero:

If thats the case, then Voltagetrolls should go after the bit torrent client authors and their distributors and leave the ordinary citizens alone. Endof.

Completely retarded. So then screwdriver manufactures should be sued because they can be used to kill people.

lol i was going to comment on his earlier and i said forget it... bit torrent wasn't created to facilitate piracy but so many people like to read in to the propaganda and believe everything they read.

Thought it was funny because first thing that came to mind was guns :/ Of which is a perfect example.


leave4priva

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc

TSI Marc - don't think of this as a legal question, think of it as a business problem. If you decide TSI should keep logs and especially if this legal action sets a precedent, I will be moving my business to the first decent ISP to offer privacy. There are technological solutions that free you from the need to keep logs. The law is on your side if you choose not to keep logs. Why do you want to keep logs? Who do you think your customer base is? How do you think TSI got to be such a big name ISP? If it wasn't for the downloaders where would TSI be? Who do you think will jump ship first to the first ISP willing to provide the service they are looking for?


greenrosetta

join:2011-06-05
Squamish, BC
reply to TSI Marc

TSI Marc;
Thank you for the open dialogue in regards to log retention, from a customer point of view I would prefer if you only kept logs for 48hrs. Better than none and just enough to service your business needs, anymore would be detrimental to your business due to trolls from the USA. The trolls are just another political picture that is transpiring in our homes from coast to coast.

Please stand up for all those who have supported you, in the long run this will set precedent. With all the attacks on the Internet, Online Spying Bill/TPP/SOPA/PIPA/UN Takeover. Teksavvy and Open Media are the last Frontier.



apvm

join:2003-02-14
London, ON
kudos:1
reply to Tx

I am with Tx all the way since he seems to be knowledgeable and knows what he is talking.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to greenrosetta

said by greenrosetta:

TSI Marc;
Thank you for the open dialogue...

Sorry but I hate to say it. There's been NO open dialogue here. Lot of un-answered questions, uneasy people, and bantering going back and forth... But zero open *two-way* dialogue here.

This doesn't jive with TSI's "mantra" at all.

m3chen

join:2009-12-03
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

4 edits
reply to TSI Marc

@TSI_Marc / All:

Here's a question for you / the judge of the current court case, as a result of this lawsuit against the un-named does, wouldn't it be possible under PIPEDA for users to send in a request to TekSavvy to see and have their private information be removed from such logs?

I / every TekSavvy customer (any ISP really) could request that their individual IP be deleted from such logs or databases because it contains data that could be used for other purposes other than what it was originally intended for (i.e. technical support vs potential court liability) and could be incorrect based on what TSI encountered in terms of its technical problems while gathering data for Voltage. This would be based on the fact that PIPEDA does allow for us (all teksavvy / other ISP customers) to request this to be done and since there were inaccuracies in the information gathering process for the trial which resulted in people being falsely notified.

Please do comment on this as I would be interested in creating a document that could be sent in every 90 days to request not only to see my data but have it corrected / removed if it did not meet PIPEDA guidelines.

BTW for those interested; PIPEDA defines IP addresses as being a part of personal information:

snippet of PIPEDA
"Your personal information includes your...

• name, race, ethnic origin, religion, marital status, educational level
• e-mail address and messages, IP (Internet protocol) address
• age, height, weight, medical records, blood type, DNA code, fingerprints, voiceprint
• income, purchases, spending habits, banking information, credit/debit card data, loan or credit reports, tax returns
• Social Insurance Number (SIN) or other identification numbers."


Snippet of "Your rights under PIPEDA"

PIPEDA requires private-sector organizations to collect, use or disclose your personal information by fair and lawful means, with your consent, and only for purposes that are stated and reasonable.

They’re also obliged to protect your personal information through appropriate security measures, and to destroy it when it’s no longer needed for the original purposes.

You have the right to expect the personal information the organization holds about you to be accurate, complete and up-to-date. That means you have a right to see it, and to ask for corrections if they got it wrong.

If you think an organization covered by PIPEDA is not living up to its obligations, you should try to address your concerns directly with the organization. If that doesn’t work, you have the option of lodging a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner.



Bibi123

@teksavvy.com

I notice that this is the last post in this thread, and it was a good one. Has anyone followed up on the PIPEDA angle?



d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by Bibi123 :

I notice that this is the last post in this thread, and it was a good one. Has anyone followed up on the PIPEDA angle?

Indeed it is....I doubt you'll get a response from TSI directly on it (especially if he's right) so the best way to proceed would be to reformat that into an email and send it directly to TSI.

It would be appreciated if whoever does so would post back the results once TSI responds to the request. Never thought I'd say this but if PIPEDA is to be believed, it seems like privacy laws are in our favour...
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to m3chen

said by m3chen:

@TSI_Marc / All:

Here's a question for you / the judge of the current court case, as a result of this lawsuit against the un-named does, wouldn't it be possible under PIPEDA for users to send in a request to TekSavvy to see and have their private information be removed from such logs?

I / every TekSavvy customer (any ISP really) could request that their individual IP be deleted from such logs or databases because it contains data that could be used for other purposes other than what it was originally intended for (i.e. technical support vs potential court liability) and could be incorrect based on what TSI encountered in terms of its technical problems while gathering data for Voltage. This would be based on the fact that PIPEDA does allow for us (all teksavvy / other ISP customers) to request this to be done and since there were inaccuracies in the information gathering process for the trial which resulted in people being falsely notified.

Please do comment on this as I would be interested in creating a document that could be sent in every 90 days to request not only to see my data but have it corrected / removed if it did not meet PIPEDA guidelines.

BTW for those interested; PIPEDA defines IP addresses as being a part of personal information:

snippet of PIPEDA
"Your personal information includes your...

• name, race, ethnic origin, religion, marital status, educational level
• e-mail address and messages, IP (Internet protocol) address
• age, height, weight, medical records, blood type, DNA code, fingerprints, voiceprint
• income, purchases, spending habits, banking information, credit/debit card data, loan or credit reports, tax returns
• Social Insurance Number (SIN) or other identification numbers."


Snippet of "Your rights under PIPEDA"

PIPEDA requires private-sector organizations to collect, use or disclose your personal information by fair and lawful means, with your consent, and only for purposes that are stated and reasonable.

They’re also obliged to protect your personal information through appropriate security measures, and to destroy it when it’s no longer needed for the original purposes.

You have the right to expect the personal information the organization holds about you to be accurate, complete and up-to-date. That means you have a right to see it, and to ask for corrections if they got it wrong.

If you think an organization covered by PIPEDA is not living up to its obligations, you should try to address your concerns directly with the organization. If that doesn’t work, you have the option of lodging a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner.

Not avoiding this thread as mentioned previously..

I think this is your question:

"Here's a question for you / the judge of the current court case, as a result of this lawsuit against the un-named does, wouldn't it be possible under PIPEDA for users to send in a request to TekSavvy to see and have their private information be removed from such logs?"

Without going into details, the very short answer is: no.

Once this is all done, I'll gladly talk about these things more openly. I'd rather stay the course for now, It's the course that best serves those alleged of infringement IMHO.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to voxframe

said by voxframe:

said by ekster:

Everyone needs to realize if Teksavvy (or anyone else) starts playing the technical card and keep no logs at all, or for a very short time, the police, the entertainment companies and the politicians will just push a law to get rid of that and make a law that will force everyone to keep logs.

That's their problem. In the end we need to stand up and do something about it now before it starts. Once they start and the people scream, nothing ever happens about it, the screaming just eventually goes down. Get your foot in the door first.

why if police get a complaint and enough evidence to gte a warrant then TSI can log that ip, why should everyone be logged

I am one person of 5000 recetn disabled person to have there data disappear and let me tell you how htis goes and its bound to happen here as well in time.

A) because records were lost for 1.5 years , i was not living where i was
B) no rent receipts means i owed them 1.5 years rent money
C) the apparent address they had for me was a house sold by my father then resold to hells angels bikers whom just recently sold it...
D) aint that great you have me paying no rent at a hells angels biker house....
you want stress that will do it.
AND let me tell ya that got solved fraking quick on threat of a lawsuit.
and there is no excuse not to protect data as if it were level ten top secret
ergo no one in room can be alone with unencrypted data
when its moved you have it encrypted and moved by one person and the key for it is separate and both people with such are watched.

i doubt you guard my data and privacy in this regard so why keep 90 days of it , if you need stats you can run and keep stats BUT you wont need details of anything less then "this area this bandwidth at certain times, you dont require so n so doing this all day or that.

So my question is when my data turns up on the internet or whatever are you saving to get sued because you didnt safeguard it and what safeguards are you putting in place not to look like govt retards.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Fuzzy285

said by Fuzzy285:

said by Ree:



As others have said it's quite likely that ignoring their extortion attempt will be the end of it. In the off-chance that it goes to court, it's also quite likely that people will find themselves paying something close to the minimum of $100 instead of the maximum of $5k (or the $20k they're quoting).

No and no. If they sue you, one of these scenarios will likely play out:

a) you don't file a defense, they get default judgment for the $20K. A writ of execution can then be issued directing the Sheriff at the county where you live to seize and sell your property to enforce the judgment. They might also attempt to garnish your wages.

b) you grab the first lawyer you can get and file a defense. Unfortunately you only manage to refute the commercial infringement part of Voltage's claims. The judge finds against you in the amount of $500 for non-commercial infringement. You still have to pay your lawyer about $3,500 so you are on the hook for $4,000.

c) you get an experienced IP lawyer and mount a simple but effective defense. After a couple of court appearances the judge dismisses Voltage's claim against you. Your legal bills: $7,000.

d) you mount a very effective defense but are countered by Voltage's lawyers. A good deal of expert testimony is demanded. The case drags through the courts for months. Regardless of who prevails, your legal bills are now in the tens of thousands.

In none of these scenarios do you walk away paying $100. It's just not going to happen, because showing up to court will immediately put you in the hole $3,000, and it would be very, very unlikely for the judge to award you costs, unless Voltage's lawyers are complete idiots and bungle this horribly.

A) disabled people have an undue harm clause that protects them form more then 49$ a month in any claim welfare its like 29$
B) voltage's claim is for commercial infringement if you prove or they cant prove commercial infringement the case should be dropped , refile for the appropriate law and set of laws thank you.
C) you also file a counter claim for your fees and pain and suffering that you were not commercially infringing there UNintellectual property. YOU could also add slander and defamation of character as they are classifying and stating publically that these people are pirates, all definitions in books on pirates state they are armed robbers whom harm physically people for loot....of which none of this you will claim you have done....small claims court 120$ lawyer for it 3 grand max settlement 25000 dollars.

D)voltage doesnt want a case that drags on months , evidenced already by them wanting money to cover there current legal fees ROFL ...SEE part C) of my rebuttal.
THe whole aim is like a criminal doing a drive by a store smashing the window and grabbing all they can and riding off to do so again....

IN every scenario you should win cause its not commercial infringement they have to prove you profited which you did not.
show me again how any ip address on the net right now you can tell if its making money for the user or not....YOU CANT
BUT if i catch you at a flea market selling voltage stuff you gte this kind of case for commercial infringement.
have a nice day and learn what the difference between commercial and non commercial FILE SHARING is.NOTE also of significance is fact that voltage has yet to redraft the notice that TSI is supposed ot send to these affected ips. THEY seem not to care or there legal team is a joke. THEY cant even use the right part of the law in filing.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by 34764170:

said by TwiztedZero:

If thats the case, then Voltagetrolls should go after the bit torrent client authors and their distributors and leave the ordinary citizens alone. Endof.

Completely retarded. So then screwdriver manufactures should be sued because they can be used to kill people.

lol i was going to comment on his earlier and i said forget it... bit torrent wasn't created to facilitate piracy but so many people like to read in to the propaganda and believe everything they read.

Thought it was funny because first thing that came to mind was guns :/ Of which is a perfect example.

not to mention bit torrent inc is owned by warner brothers , they could just sue themselves

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

said by m3chen:

@TSI_Marc / All:

Here's a question for you / the judge of the current court case, as a result of this lawsuit against the un-named does, wouldn't it be possible under PIPEDA for users to send in a request to TekSavvy to see and have their private information be removed from such logs?

I / every TekSavvy customer (any ISP really) could request that their individual IP be deleted from such logs or databases because it contains data that could be used for other purposes other than what it was originally intended for (i.e. technical support vs potential court liability) and could be incorrect based on what TSI encountered in terms of its technical problems while gathering data for Voltage. This would be based on the fact that PIPEDA does allow for us (all teksavvy / other ISP customers) to request this to be done and since there were inaccuracies in the information gathering process for the trial which resulted in people being falsely notified.

Please do comment on this as I would be interested in creating a document that could be sent in every 90 days to request not only to see my data but have it corrected / removed if it did not meet PIPEDA guidelines.

BTW for those interested; PIPEDA defines IP addresses as being a part of personal information:

snippet of PIPEDA
"Your personal information includes your...

• name, race, ethnic origin, religion, marital status, educational level
• e-mail address and messages, IP (Internet protocol) address
• age, height, weight, medical records, blood type, DNA code, fingerprints, voiceprint
• income, purchases, spending habits, banking information, credit/debit card data, loan or credit reports, tax returns
• Social Insurance Number (SIN) or other identification numbers."


Snippet of "Your rights under PIPEDA"

PIPEDA requires private-sector organizations to collect, use or disclose your personal information by fair and lawful means, with your consent, and only for purposes that are stated and reasonable.

They’re also obliged to protect your personal information through appropriate security measures, and to destroy it when it’s no longer needed for the original purposes.

You have the right to expect the personal information the organization holds about you to be accurate, complete and up-to-date. That means you have a right to see it, and to ask for corrections if they got it wrong.

If you think an organization covered by PIPEDA is not living up to its obligations, you should try to address your concerns directly with the organization. If that doesn’t work, you have the option of lodging a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner.

Not avoiding this thread as mentioned previously..

I think this is your question:

"Here's a question for you / the judge of the current court case, as a result of this lawsuit against the un-named does, wouldn't it be possible under PIPEDA for users to send in a request to TekSavvy to see and have their private information be removed from such logs?"

Without going into details, the very short answer is: no.

Once this is all done, I'll gladly talk about these things more openly. I'd rather stay the course for now, It's the course that best serves those alleged of infringement IMHO.

seeing your data as said in above is mandated marc....its like requesting medical data and costs the end user for them to prepare it for you so reasonable might mean it costs us to get a peek....


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

I may understand this wrong but I believe there isn't much data in the logs to begin with?

The logs everyone are debating here are IP addreses and what account numbers they were assigned to at a particular time.

The account numbers then can be linked to a the information on that account (billing, address, name, etc).

The logs and the account database are two separate entities. You're asking TekSavvy to wipe you whole account information?



d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by TypeS:

I may understand this wrong but I believe there isn't much data in the logs to begin with?

The logs everyone are debating here are IP addreses and what account numbers they were assigned to at a particular time.

The account numbers then can be linked to a the information on that account (billing, address, name, etc).

The logs and the account database are two separate entities. You're asking TekSavvy to wipe you whole account information?

Totally wrong. While TSI doesn't record exactly what websites you visit themselves, they do the next worst thing....Record IP assignments which enable them to pin point which customer had a specific IP at a specific time.

For example if a 3rd party (government/police/mpaa/etc) has an IP and time stamp of when that IP accessed the content (websites/download/etc), all they merely have to do is ask TSI to look into their logs TSI and can identify you. That's why they actually DO play a role in tracking which websites you visit because if a website owner gives them your IP, TSI will know you visited that website once they look you up.

I don't care how long TSI keeps logs for, as long as they are anonymous (striped of all personal/account identifiable data), INCLUDING IP -> account assignment info.
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting


drjp81

join:2006-01-09
canada

said by d4m1r:

said by TypeS:

I may understand this wrong but I believe there isn't much data in the logs to begin with?

The logs everyone are debating here are IP addreses and what account numbers they were assigned to at a particular time.

The account numbers then can be linked to a the information on that account (billing, address, name, etc).

The logs and the account database are two separate entities. You're asking TekSavvy to wipe you whole account information?

Totally wrong. While TSI doesn't record exactly what websites you visit themselves, they do the next worst thing....Record IP assignments which enable them to pin point which customer had a specific IP at a specific time.

For example if a 3rd party (government/police/mpaa/etc) has an IP and time stamp of when that IP accessed the content (websites/download/etc), all they merely have to do is ask TSI to look into their logs TSI and can identify you. That's why they actually DO play a role in tracking which websites you visit because if a website owner gives them your IP, TSI will know you visited that website once they look you up.

I don't care how long TSI keeps logs for, as long as they are anonymous (striped of all personal/account identifiable data), INCLUDING IP -> account assignment info.

I'm not sure somone brought this up. I'm not going through 30 pages, I'm too lazy.

I'm all for privacy, but there are simple civil if not criminal accountability reasons ISPs should maintain a log of clients VS IPs. Otherwise how could they track down spammers, black hat hackers, botnets and all sorts of people with criminal intent. While it may be desirable they be, a somewhat dumb pipe, even the phone company keeps a call log and have for decades.

I doubt TSI wants to have the reputation of being a safe haven for nefarious net users.
--
Cheers!


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

Also wrong. Those are merely "administrative" tasks that risk the privacy of all users to make it easier for TSI to carry out those administrative tasks....

Marc has acknowledged the argument I put forward which basically states that all the reasons they claim they keep logs for now, can still be carried out tomorrow if they wanted to, even if they switched to a 0 day logging policy. In such cases, those tasks could still be accomplished AND users privacy is not put as risk. In the EU, where there are REAL consumer privacy protection laws, ISPs have switched to 0 day logging policies to protect themselves and their users and have found alternative methods to do all the things Marc stated TSI needs to keep logs for...
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting


dcorban

join:2003-07-13
Newmarket, ON
reply to TSI Marc

I don't know what is logged, but it would seem to me that any data logged for more than a week is excessive. This would only be used for troubleshooting purposes. Any technical problems should be resolved within a week, so the data would not be needed.



davegravy

@iasl.com
reply to TSI Marc

Crazy idea...

I've skimmed most of this thread but due to it's length this may have already been thrown out there for consideration:

Take a page out of Mega's book - you store the logs, but your clients hold the keys.

Beyond logs needed for emergency situations, encrypt log data specific to each client with a password known only to the client. If law enforcement needs access to logs relating to your client, you have plausible deniability, and they are required to use courts to compel your client to decrypt the information.


The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

That's actually very cool/innovative. You could even have the encryption only become active after a reasonable troubleshooting window.

However, it doesn't solve a couple of the major long-term issues (no solution really does). The big one is that law enforcement would not look kindly on this sort of a behaviour by an ISP...likely leading to a push for much tighter regulations forcing ISPs to retain data. This is often why companies go beyond what is legally required of them...failure to do so often leads to extremely unwelcome changes in the law.

In the end, I would be shocked if TekSavvy or any other significant ISP decided to eliminate current logging practices or trim the window back to a couple of weeks. We are probably going to have to learn to live with it.



davegravy

@iasl.com

said by The Mongoose:

This is often why companies go beyond what is legally required of them...failure to do so often leads to extremely unwelcome changes in the law.

In my opinion, having a law spell out the requirements is better because:

a) companies like Teksavvy no longer need to concern themselves with walking a privacy-accountability tightrope. They can just follow the requirements of the law to the letter and be done with it.
b) all ISPs will be on the same playing field with regards to a)
c) the public will (should) have an opportunity to have a say in what the appropriate balance is.

I don't think the threat of a law being formed should deter ISPs from implementing a reasonable policy. Worst case, if we end up with an extreme law (like you say), Canadians will be marched that much closer to losing their tolerance with the powers that be and to taking back their country.

It's Teksavvy's prerogative in this case, of course.

Weaver2

join:2012-03-10
reply to TSI Marc

Personally, if logs are not legally required, I wouldn't have them at all.

If European ISPs are adopting 0 day logs, I'd like that here as well.
I, personally, see my privacy as absolutely paramount. I don't even torrent illegally; I'm fortunate enough that I can afford to buy all my music, games and movies.

I'm just a very private person. I'm actually learning German as I'm considering making the move to Germany once the eurozone financial problems are over (or if Harper and Towes finally snap). For all the countries problems, they have fantastic privacy laws.

In my opinion, at the end of the day, your job is to provide internet to people. That's it. It is not your responsibility to stop people from killing themselves, to catch predators, or to prevent copyright infringement.

If your going to keep logs, I'd like a way, as a customer, to be able to view what is being stored about me. Obviously, in a read only format.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to davegravy

said by davegravy :

Take a page out of Mega's book - you store the logs, but your clients hold the keys.

Beyond logs needed for emergency situations, encrypt log data specific to each client with a password known only to the client. If law enforcement needs access to logs relating to your client, you have plausible deniability, and they are required to use courts to compel your client to decrypt the information.

Great idea.
Store each client log in a single text file per day per client.
Then have the client have the option to specify the number of days they want the log file(s) kept via a user set parameter on their MyWorld page. TSI's system then overwrites any files (35-pass Guttmann) older than the # of days set in the customer profile.

Bet you the normal number customers set == 0.


jsmaster

join:2008-03-16
Montreal, QC
reply to TSI Marc

Lol total BS

There is no law nor any obligations for an ISP to keep logs files.


UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Bell Sympatico

2 edits
reply to drjp81

"I'm all for privacy, but there are simple civil if not criminal accountability reasons ISPs should maintain a log of clients VS IPs. Otherwise how could they track down spammers, black hat hackers, botnets and all sorts of people with criminal intent. While it may be desirable they be, a somewhat dumb pipe, even the phone company keeps a call log and have for decades."

------------------------

Hi.

Those of you following this thread since the original issue occurred know that I've been active in it. However, I've taken a back seat over the Christmas following two deaths in the family.

I also feel we are regurguating old information, to new people. We haven't progressed that much since the first hearing whilst we wait.

I CAN however contribute to the above as I was the original person who confirmed that THERE IS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT to keep logs. The decision is taken by the ISP on grounds of their own choosing.

I checked this with the CRTC, the Office of the Privacy Commisioner, the Department of Trade and Industry, the CAIP, an SC Lawyer, and a couple more.

The answer was 100% conclusive. There is no need to keep them, and no charges could be brought against the ISP if their response to every legal warranted request was "I'm sorry, we don't have that information."

That said, Marc is within his rights as the CEO to set the level at whatever he feels is necessary to run the business the way he wants to, and I support that 100%.

Cheers,
Dave



drjp81

join:2006-01-09
canada
reply to drjp81

I was merely stating that I do not think TSI would likely want to be a pioneer in that field. It might actually ake good business sense to keep logs to filter out "bad users". So though they have no legal obligation it might still be desirable.
--
Cheers!