dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
53829
share rss forum feed


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

3 edits

2 recommendations

Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

The reason we insisted on a notice period was so that those affected or those interested in this situation could have a chance to intervene on Monday. If you feel that your information should not be released you could be represented anonymously if you choose to.

For the merit of what they are alleging, this is not a trial. So all they are doing at this stage is to show enough to pass a test in order to convince a court to order us to release the information. At this point no copyright infringement has been proven. We believe its important that people know when their private information may be released and that's why we have taken this approach.

The best way to protect against these requests is to simply not engage in these activities. We don't encourage illegal activities of any kind, nor am I insinuating that anybody has now either as I don't know one way or another why anybody might have appeared on their list. What people do online though is not for us to scrutinize, we don't monitor or collect data or anything of the sort. All ISPs are subject to these kinds of requests and this is not the first request of its kind. Other ISPs have had similar requests in the past and there will surely be more in the future.

All of that being said though, it's important to read exactly what they are alleging. My understanding is that they are alleging that at an IP associated with some of our customers accounts, their work was made available somehow. Whether anybody downloaded it or whether the alleged downloaded it is not part of their claim to my understanding. Again though, we are not and will not be commenting on any of the merits of what they are alleging. Those who do, should take advantage of the notice period and find a way to make their case on Monday. Should the motion pass and we were to be forced to give up the information, those alleged would then have to deal with Voltage directly. What they choose to do with the information is up to them. Again though, all they would have at that point would be your information, not a judgment that anybody has done anything wrong. To do that they would need to take the alleged to court where they would have the opportunity to plead their case.. As is the case in all court hearings.

Everybody should know though that we have looked into all angles to determine what our position should be in this situation and after spending a significant amount of time and soliciting a considerable amount of advice from numerous respected sources, we found that we simply could not comment on the merits of the case. Our place is to ensure that we provide adequate notice and also to make known to others that these requests have occurred and that the best way to make sure to avoid being involved is to simply not engage in such activities. If somehow you end up involved and you feel its not right, the place to voice your concern is the hearing on Monday. If you intend to appear, please let us know also.

I will be there on Monday to ensure your privacy is taken seriously however we will not be making a case against the merit of what they are alleging. That's for those affected and others to do if they wish to. Our role has been to provide notice and to take every step to alert and to some degree educate people that the laws have now changed and apparently so too have the technologies used to collect evidence in these cases. If they were not enforcing these laws in the past, they are certainly doing so now, whether the laws are right or not is not for us to judge.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12

maybe im tired but youre basically saying you have no plans to go to bat for the customers? im honestly dead tred so if i misunderstood then im sorry



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

No, I think you got it right. The notice is what we fought for. I've looked at it a hundred different ways (you have no idea). We just cant wade into the merits of their case.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
reply to TSI Marc

Seems like you are doing the most you can to be proactive on this. They aren't going after teksavvy at all, opposing their motion would not be wise given the situation.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to TSI Marc

sorry about the edits.. I had initially written this in reply to an affected user on the blog. I figured I should post it here too. But I changed it to make it so it wasn't talking to anybody specifically.. I missed a few places. I think I got them all now.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


activoice

join:2008-02-10
York, ON
reply to TSI Marc

Although TSI is not arguing against the case on the merits.

Couldn't TSI inform the court that an IP address only identifies the residence that the internet connection terminates at, but that it in no way identifies the individual using the internet at the time the alleged infringement took place?

So basically go on record that you will provide the customer information if ordered by the court, but that this customer information does not necessarily indicate the name of the individual who may have infringed copyright?



bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
reply to TSI Marc

The only thing I ponder is whether rolling over (not knocking you Marc) will open a can of worms for never-ending future requests. Seems like you'll have to have an employee(s) dedicated to this BS.

Isn't there a fee associated with each IP request? I've been confused about the whole $40 to $200 thing.

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union


tired

join:2010-12-12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TELUS
reply to TSI Marc

This is disappointing and I think the lack of value you place on customer privacy needs to be viewed critically by anyone currently subscribing to TSI or considering doing so in the future. Why could you not have done something along the lines of this from Shaw when they were in a similar position? »www.cippic.ca/sites/default/file···Shaw.pdf

There are many, many accounts of innocent people who have been wrongly accused using the same software and tactics that are being employed here. Tactics that are currently being slammed in the UK and US. Yet it seems like you're willing to just roll over and hand the identities of over 1000 of your customers to these blackmailers without even trying to stand up for their rights, but your conscience is clear because you're giving some of them a few days to find a lawyer and mount their own defense?

Like I said. Disappointing.



ryangard

join:2006-02-21
reply to TSI Marc

You must simply consider the position TekSavvy is in, and the lack of legal protections allotted to providers in Canada. In the US and EU, there are safe harbor laws that protect service providers from being directly associated to copyright infringement claims and other legal issues as long as they can prove they were acting in good faith. With the lack of these laws, any form of refusal can be considered by the courts to be condoning customers to infringe copyright, as they're alleging teksavvy's users have done in the suit. As such, they did mention they'll be representing themselves and the privacy of their customers, but they simply cannot and will not take a stance on whether or not the customers did or did not infringe on copyright, as they simply don't know, and can't know without breaking privacy laws.

At the end of the day, TekSavvy was transparent in advising customers that their information may be passed to a third party as part of a court order, which is leaps and bounds more than any other company in Canada has been known to do. As for defending the merits, they have no place in doing so.



Optional

join:2012-02-26
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

Even though I wasn't accused if this, this is still bull.

You roll over for these guys? you'll be getting attacked by every production company this side of the sun. Enjoy that.

Seriously considering taking my business elsewhere. I want to know that my privacy is just that, PRIVATE.

I watch youtube and actually buy music off itunes as far as internet usage goes + a lot of online gaming, but this is just ludicrous. what's next?



w2goTSI

@teksavvy.com
reply to bbbc

Pretty weak. And now in another post you were considering increasing log retention time to 6 months? If you are not going to stand up for your customers at least low your log retention to something like 3 weeks.



lame0

@torservers.net
reply to TSI Marc

Very lame position to take Marc.

I can understand your "keep our hands off" approach to this situation.

But you can at least act as a technical expert during the court proceeding, to show some good faith for your customers rights.

Give expert testimony or statements that an IP doesn't represent an individual, point out that the copy trolls are only targeting teksavvy customers and not other isps, whatever.

Obviously we don't expect you to be the lawyers for the accused. But at least establish some professional statements which could be helpful in your customers legal proceedings.

All you managed to do it in your original post.... is say that some people do things contrary to Canadian law...... but you haven't pointed anything which could work in favour of your customers.

Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the vibe of this whole situation.


tired

join:2010-12-12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TELUS
reply to ryangard

said by ryangard:

With the lack of these laws, any form of refusal can be considered by the courts to be condoning customers to infringe copyright, as they're alleging teksavvy's users have done in the suit.

This is BS. See BMG vs Does and Shaw, Rogers, Bell, Telus, and Videotron. »reports.fja.gc.ca/eng/2005/2005f···193.html All of those ISPs except for Videotron stood up for their customers and they suffered no negative consequences. In fact their customers names were never revealed and to this day Gangsta_Cool@KaZaa remains anonymous. See also »cippic.ca/en/file-sharing-lawsuits

ISPs have a duty to protect their customers' privacy. If the court orders them to hand over names and addresses then they have to, but that doesn't mean that TSI should not oppose the motion on Monday. Read what CIPPIC is saying regarding the motion for some ideas of what TSI could and should say: »cippic.ca/sites/default/files/LT···2012.pdf

hmph

join:2012-10-23

It is quite obvious that Voltage's arguments are based on complete utter crap from Canipre. All it would take is for a technical expert to point that out to a non tek-savvy judge. I think if a technical expert from Teksavvy could help out with that then it would be much appreciated.
If you guys don't stand up against this bs now, then there will be much more of this to come from other silly movie studios. As much as I like Teksavvy, moving back to a larger ISP that actually goes to court for their customers to protect their privacy may be a good idea for some regardless of the bandwidth drawbacks.



neuromancer1

join:2007-01-22
York, ON
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to Optional

said by Optional:

Seriously considering taking my business elsewhere. I want to know that my privacy is just that, PRIVATE.

I'm considering this as well. The lack of privacy is huge issue for me even though I'm not accused. Well that and TSI will be nothing but a huge target for copyright lawsuits after this.

ultramancool

join:2004-12-22
Schenectady, NY

Indeed, if TekSavvy isn't going all out now when the laws are being brought into question, what can we really expect from them in the future, especially if the lawsuits ramp up?



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to w2goTSI

said by w2goTSI :

Pretty weak. And now in another post you were considering increasing log retention time to 6 months? If you are not going to stand up for your customers at least low your log retention to something like 3 weeks.

I think the part that gets me is this.

Early days were Rocky = CEO.

1. Lots of fighting, lawsuits, CRTC filings, marching in ottawa for our rights.
2. Silence, what the hell happened
3. Marc is announced CEO
4. Though Marc had a pile of poop thrown at him during the title switch when cable landed in his lap, the "fight" that Teksavvy is so well known for goes away.

A lot changed during the switch of CEO. Marc i think does a lot more then his brother since he has piles of crap to deal with but why does the aspect of the "big fight" go away now?

I'm no saying to facilite in helping piracy but c'mon.

In another thread someone comments on how it's ridiculous that privacy is the reasoning behind it why people are up in arms.

How is it ridiculous? Do you know how many people are WRONGFULLY accused and now must seek legal representation and mounts of legal bills knowing your ISP doesn't even try to challenge a court order?

This fight is no different, you fought for better rates, better bandwidth allowance, UBB to be squashed, all for what? Now that was fought for, the privacy of several people who truly are ignorantly innocent will now go through possible bankruptcy to fight these trolls.

These guys are frauds because they try with a "Pay up or else" scheme. For this very reason you should be fighting for your customers. If fighting is not best financially for TSI, consider lowering retention on logging. EU does a great job of this and so does an isp in the US now keeping only 14 days worth of logs, and they manage just fine.

In fact an influx of users came once that was announced.

Not everything is about piracy, it's sometimes about what's right. I am not one of those affected, i knew i wouldn't be, but i do know someone that is and this someone has no clue what a torrent is and this user barely knows how to use their email let alone download these dumb ass movies they are talking about.

I'm shocked to say the least. I appreciate the transparency big time, but i'd be lying if i said i wasn't surprised at the we'll block the doors for you for a couple of days, quick go get representation.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to ultramancool

said by ultramancool:

Indeed, if TekSavvy isn't going all out now when the laws are being brought into question, what can we really expect from them in the future, especially if the lawsuits ramp up?

Took the words right out of my mouth.. The wrongfully accused and the genuinely wrongfully accused will always be at risk since there is no "firewall" to protect them even the slightest.

said by neuromancer1:

said by Optional:

Seriously considering taking my business elsewhere. I want to know that my privacy is just that, PRIVATE.

I'm considering this as well. The lack of privacy is huge issue for me even though I'm not accused. Well that and TSI will be nothing but a huge target for copyright lawsuits after this.

Absolutely. I believe I'll be doing the same and i'll be moving my father and grandmother off of it as well. Though i'm the one who setup their routers it still worries me.


AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to TSI Marc

IMHO TSI is doing what they have always done, a hands off approach to your account. What you use your account for is up to you. However even Rocky had mentioned that no customer info would be released without a court order. I would imagine if your case went to trial and if your lawyer required it, a technical expert from TSI could be made available to testify. In fact I am almost sure that this would be part of your defense.
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.

Expand your moderator at work


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to AkFubar

Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

said by AkFubar:

IMHO TSI is doing what they have always done, a hands off approach to your account. What you use your account for is up to you. However even Rocky had mentioned that no customer info would be released without a court order. I would imagine if your case went to trial and if your lawyer required it, a technical expert from TSI could be made available to testify. In fact I am almost sure that this would be part of your defense.

You realize what you're saying? You're saying you're almost sure TSi would send out an expert to 2300 different cases... and this is the first round

ultramancool

join:2004-12-22
Schenectady, NY

I'm guessing most people will settle out of court so the really important opportunity to fight this is now.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by ultramancool:

I'm guessing most people will settle out of court so the really important opportunity to fight this is now.

I'd bet less then half will settle out of court quite honestly. This is too new here so no one has really set any standards as to what happens yet.

And the best part, someone thinks Teksavvy has the resources to send an expert to each case that does go to court. I mean, get real.

One sentence, "Teksavvy and hands off approach like they always have" then ends off by saying they will send an expert to your aid in a trial. I get it, people love Teksavvy, but sometimes they love them a little too much and give far too much credit where it isn't due.

I can imagine Marc's head spinning thinking of sending guys to each court case, and as i said, this is the first round lol.... the game just began

JonyBelGeul
Premium
join:2008-07-31
reply to TSI Marc

IANAL

Marc, consider burden of proof as a fundamental legal principle of Canadian Law.

We're dealing with a minor infraction, not a capital offense. Court resources are assigned accordingly.

The evidence here is not that a person committed a crime, but that a number associated with the alleged commission of a crime, is also associated with a person.

This is a three-way association. Number-crime, number-person, crime-person.

As it stands now, only one of these associations is allegedly established physically. Number-crime.

This is not enough to investigate, i.e., the court likely will not be convinced to issue TSI an order to disclose personal information, let alone prosecute. And this is why Voltage asks for the second association, number-person. However, this is most likely not enough to investigate either, because the third association - person-crime - is not yet established physically, and most likely never will be no matter what.

Consider Voltage's unorthodox behavior. They sent TSI a request before any decision from the court. Such behavior could be construed as intimidation, and in the event TSI complied with Voltage's request, can reasonably be expected to lead to more intimidation, this time directed at TSI's customers cited in the request.

The absence of the person-crime association, and Voltage's unorthodox behavior suggesting intimidation, are enough in my opinion to convince the court to deny Voltage request to disclose personal information, preventing Voltage from realizing this potential intimidation.

However, failing that, if the court issues an order to TSI to disclose its customers' information, and if Voltage subsequently sends "pay or else" notices to those TSI customers, then TSI should notify these customers of their rights to fight this in court. And TSI should then proceed to sue Voltage for abuse of the court for the purpose of extorting TSI's customers, using all the known facts such as Voltage unorthodox behavior in the matter, and the "pay or else" notices sent to TSI's customers. In other words, "we told you so, mr judge".
--
My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.



More2Come

@videotron.ca
reply to hmph

said by hmph:

If you guys don't stand up against this bs now, then there will be much more of this to come from other silly movie studios.

Canipre said the Porn producers are next in line to extort you.

Can't wait to see one of you guys/girls nailed for dl'ing some embarrassing porn title and some sleeze bag demanding 3,500$ from you. heh 3,500$ will buy you a night out that beats any cheap 2$ porn

....and chances are it will be some pimple faced greasy haired kid finding out when mom slaps him around with the extortion letter.

boy o boy, can't wait to see this.

You teens out there better discuss this with mommy ASAP and come clean with what you have done... while you still can.

oh the next one is going to be something alright.


ChuckcZar

@teksavvy.com
reply to Tx

Recall the days of istop. They had a proxy you had to go through to connect to the internet. So if Teksavvy had something similar what would voltage do? Either they would charge everyone with an internet connection or charge no one.



ChuckcZar

@teksavvy.com
reply to Tx

Maybe, maybe not things will be quite a bit different in Canada with the $5,000 cap. Cases can be tried in small claims court unlike in America where the maximum is $150,000. Going to small claims court would cost Voltage next to nothing.



AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by AkFubar:

IMHO TSI is doing what they have always done, a hands off approach to your account. What you use your account for is up to you. However even Rocky had mentioned that no customer info would be released without a court order. I would imagine if your case went to trial and if your lawyer required it, a technical expert from TSI could be made available to testify. In fact I am almost sure that this would be part of your defense.

You realize what you're saying? You're saying you're almost sure TSi would send out an expert to 2300 different cases... and this is the first round

Well, people's lawyers may require that as part of their defense. I suppose a defense lawyer would request a summons or subpoena if need be for expert testimony if they feel it will help their case. So there may not be a choice. It is a real possibility.
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 recommendation

reply to Tx

Tx, I know you're upset.

I have given this a massive amount of energy, resources, money, multiple lawyers and experts. You name it. I've looked at it. This is not me rolling over.

If there was more I could do to protect your privacy, I would do it. I just don't have a hook.

Whatever behavior our customer engage in is not for us to scrutinize. If we wade into that, we are essentially going against Net Neutrality principles that we fought for.

It really boils down to this: If these new Copyright laws are meant to make guilty anybody who intends to distribute Copyrighted works. And if the technology exists to track such activity. Then there is really nothing else we can do. It's the law. The law is the law. I can't defend against the law. The laws are there to defend against bad things. If we defend against laws, that makes us bad. We dont do that. We've never done that.

A few weeks back there was another case where Canipre was involved, it set the precedent.. only thing different here is the number of users requested.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to More2Come

said by More2Come :

said by hmph:

If you guys don't stand up against this bs now, then there will be much more of this to come from other silly movie studios.

Canipre said the Porn producers are next in line to extort you.

Can't wait to see one of you guys/girls nailed for dl'ing some embarrassing porn title and some sleeze bag demanding 3,500$ from you. heh 3,500$ will buy you a night out that beats any cheap 2$ porn

....and chances are it will be some pimple faced greasy haired kid finding out when mom slaps him around with the extortion letter.

boy o boy, can't wait to see this.

You teens out there better discuss this with mommy ASAP and come clean with what you have done... while you still can.

oh the next one is going to be something alright.

I guess it was bound to happen: one of the sleazebag copytrolls has shown up. Any mod wanna get rid of it?
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP