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UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

On that issue, Marc - and please excuse my ignorance here.

How will the case allow submissions from the gallery?

Would we have to give notice to speak?

Do we raise our hands and wait to be called?

Does anyone else have experience of this in Ontario?


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
said by UK_Dave:

On that issue, Marc - and please excuse my ignorance here.

How will the case allow submissions from the gallery?

Would we have to give notice to speak?

Do we raise our hands and wait to be called?

Does anyone else have experience of this in Ontario?

You need to get legal representation to understand how that works.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

JonyBelGeul
Premium
join:2008-07-31
reply to UK_Dave
Nope. Disclosure does not ensure trial, nor judgement, nor sentence. Burden of proof does not stop at disclosure. It also applies to the direct association between the person and the alleged infraction, by way of eyewitness or other equivalent means. Without this, all Voltage has is circumstantial evidence. With the simple declaration of the accused "I did not do it", the charges will be dropped.

If you remember correctly, the balrog did not pass.
--
My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
said by JonyBelGeul:

Nope. Disclosure does not ensure trial, nor judgement, nor sentence. Burden of proof does not stop at disclosure. It also applies to the direct association between the person and the alleged infraction, by way of eyewitness or other equivalent means. Without this, all Voltage has is circumstantial evidence. With the simple declaration of the accused "I did not do it", the charges will be dropped.

If you remember correctly, the balrog did not pass.

What you say could happen, but there's no reason to be so confident. Voltage wouldn't be pursuing this at all if there was no chance of winning. Their lawyers are sleazy, not stupid. Your interpretation of the rules of evidence as they pertain to IP information might not align with the court's, and the balance of probabilities standard does apply in civil cases. The case may not be won but not one of the lawyers I've spoken to thinks it's a lost cause for Voltage.

Either way, we're a long way from knowing. For us to find out, we'll have to wait for the following things:

1) Voltage wins the court order
2) Voltage wins any appeals from privacy advocates attempting to prevent them from sending extortion letters
3) Voltage sends extortion letters
4) A bunch of people decline to be extorted
5) Voltage sues some of those people
6) One of those cases makes it to trial

This whole thing could derail in any number of places. Let's hope it does. But in the meantime I don't think assuming Voltage is simply wasting everyone's time is a good idea.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to JonyBelGeul

Copyright Evidence
said by JonyBelGeul:

I'm reading the CIPPIC letter and something jumped out the page.
Evidentiary Issues

It is worth remembering that the applicants in BMG vs Doe lost their application, among other reasons, because of evidentiary deficiencies including heavy reliance on hearsay evidence.
I was right. Burden of proof governs evidence gathering, even in civil cases. In plainspeak, before the court agrees to order disclosure of evidence, there must already be sufficient evidence. Burden of proof supercedes the bona fide intent to pursue argument.

Voltage, you shall not pass.

Yeah, A lot of these suits are built on hearsay. At least in the States.

You may like this link since this kind of thing turns you on:

New evidence-based copyright reform campaign launched in the US
»ipkitten.blogspot.ca/2012/12/new ··· orm.html

Read through all the link in the article...

But today? With technology today? Dunno. I don't think it will get this far where lawyers at CIPPIC will be wading through the BS to show the court. The money just isn't there for Voltage.

But on the other hand, if Voltage is up for the fight to spend more money than what they can earn from these 2000 people so that it paves the way to sue 100,000 people 6 months from now, they just may go all the way with this.

When you look at the venn diagram think along the lines of what is quantifiable (ie the supposed lost revenue in the millions, The billion job losses, the loss of 5000$/movie download etc etc etc) heh. Not much in terms of real evidence in what Voltage filed. Not much at all. All hearsay. Nothing that actually exists that can be quantified or verified, except for an IP address. It's all based on All hearsay.

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to JonyBelGeul
This is the reason disclosure will be granted, and I believe, would have been no matter what TSI did in advance of Monday.

"[25] However, the appellants argued that the main issue on the motion was the identity of each person who is committing infringement of the appellants' copyrights. I agree and find that because this issue inevitably falls within the words in subsection 238(1) of the Rules as being "an issue in the action," rule 238 is broad enough to permit discovery in cases such as this."

Further more:

"Although privacy concerns must also be considered, it seems to me that they must yield to public concerns for the protection of intellectual property rights in situations where infringement threatens to erode those rights."

And if you remember, Gandalf was forced to change as a result of his stance with the Balrog.

He lived to fight again, lets hope we get the same result


hmmmm tsi

@ipredator.se
reply to TSI Marc
@MARC

After this statement.... are we still to expect your previous stance of not releasing customer info to accusers without a court order.

Secondly, will TSI live up to its commitment to verify claims from accusers and abusers. Make sure, that their claims are valid before notifying your customes. Random unwarranted & unjustified accusations are unacceptable.

Your customers should not be wrongfully accused and then forced into a expensive unjust stressful situations, just because a troll is pointing his finger at everyone that walks by on the street. Even if someone didn't do anything.

If you can't establish this basic level of trust, then you don't deserve our business.

Gruesome

join:2007-10-18
Milton, ON
reply to TSI Marc
I agree but some may not have done anything and are not sure what to do, or even afford a lawyer.
I'm not named on this list and I won't ever be named on a list but this feels all wrong, giving up the personal information of your clients without even a minimal effort at defending that data seems like abetting extortion. I say extortion because if it quacks like a duck etc.
I'm not even involved but I gave money to the defence fund.
This action is reprehensible, in my book no one in good conscience should give in easily or stand by and watch it happen.
Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
said by Gruesome:

I agree but some may not have done anything and are not sure what to do, or even afford a lawyer.
I'm not named on this list and I won't ever be named on a list but this feels all wrong, giving up the personal information of your clients without even a minimal effort at defending that data seems like abetting extortion. I say extortion because if it quacks like a duck etc.
I'm not even involved but I gave money to the defence fund.
This action is reprehensible, in my book no one in good conscience should give in easily or stand by and watch it happen.
Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

Whatever they may have done in other countries just doesn't matter here. In Canada, there is no such history.

The best way to make sure you're not involved in anything like this though is to not engage in the behavior they're alleging...

If there are rampant errors that were made in the data they collected.. surely that will come out.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Hey Marc,

Just a quick one before I grab a quick afternoon pint...

I mentioned earlier re: log accuracy...

Would you be prepared to put a finger in the air and say your internal, voluntary, logs are 100% accurate?


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
said by UK_Dave:

Hey Marc,

Just a quick one before I grab a quick afternoon pint...

I mentioned earlier re: log accuracy...

Would you be prepared to put a finger in the air and say your internal, voluntary, logs are 100% accurate?

As accurate as any other ISP...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
As bad as that?!

For once I'm glad that TSI isn't leading the way over their rivals.... heh heh

And, cough, thanks for the answer....


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
..not sure I've ever heard of a case where logs, these kinds of logs, were proven to be inaccurate.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to hmmmm tsi
said by hmmmm tsi :

@MARC

After this statement.... are we still to expect your previous stance of not releasing customer info to accusers without a court order.

Secondly, will TSI live up to its commitment to verify claims from accusers and abusers. Make sure, that their claims are valid before notifying your customes. Random unwarranted & unjustified accusations are unacceptable.

Your customers should not be wrongfully accused and then forced into a expensive unjust stressful situations, just because a troll is pointing his finger at everyone that walks by on the street. Even if someone didn't do anything.

If you can't establish this basic level of trust, then you don't deserve our business.

Hopefully after the trolls get knocked on the a$$ there won't be a next time. TSI has chosen to let CIPPIC challenge the trolls on privacy and validity of their tactics and weight of evidence. That's fair, TSI is in the place of devil's advocate on this for the reasons Marc explained. The judge will also question the trolls on privacy etc. on Monday. I don't think that Marc could really play this any other way based on the legal advice TSI probably got. I think more was done here by TSI than most other ISPs and certainly more than the incumbents would have done.
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.
Expand your moderator at work


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to AkFubar

Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

Some legal speak here. For those interested, the legal test I keep talking about is this (its what the Court will have to determine on Monday):

The test is below. Part (a) was changed from a "prima facie" case to "bona fide" by the Court of Appeal. On part (b), being and ISP is considered enough "involvement" to meet the test.

>>>

(a) the applicant must have a bona fide case against the unknown alleged wrongdoer;

(b) the person from whom discovery is sought must be in some way involved in the matter under dispute, he must be more than an innocent bystander;

(c) the person from whom discovery is sought must be the only practical source of information available to the applicants;

(d) the person from whom discovery is sought must be reasonably compensated for his expenses arising out of compliance with the discovery order in addition to his legal costs;

(e) the public interests in favour of disclosure must outweigh the legitimate privacy concerns.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
Based on CIPPIC's letter the trolls could fail on Part (a). There's nothing honourable about the trolls past behavior. The accusations they make are stretch at best. Their IP collection methodology is flawed.

--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
reply to TSI Marc
Any of you familiar with Felix Tang who is representing CIPPIC?

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union

Gruesome

join:2007-10-18
Milton, ON
reply to TSI Marc
So we'll just assume they're not here to extort people because they've only done that so far in other countries?
And don't engage in something you're alleged to have done?....wonderful.
Sounds like you think this behaviour is more than alleged


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

1 recommendation

reply to bbbc
I'm going to pull away from the keyboard for a while gang.

...somebody mentioned that it was beer o'clock - sounds pretty good atm!
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to bbbc
said by bbbc:

Any of you familiar with Felix Tang who is representing CIPPIC?

»www.linkedin.com/in/felixstang

www.innovatellp.com/felixtang.htm
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.

Gruesome

join:2007-10-18
Milton, ON
reply to TSI Marc
is that the answer you'll give when subpoenaed to testify in each court case?


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to Gruesome
said by Gruesome:

So we'll just assume they're not here to extort people because they've only done that so far in other countries?
And don't engage in something you're alleged to have done?....wonderful.
Sounds like you think this behaviour is more than alleged

others are already making that case.. as a result of having the notice..
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:

..not sure I've ever heard of a case where logs, these kinds of logs, were proven to be inaccurate.

Do you log traffic by modem MAC or IP? I ask because years ago I got notice from Cogeco (generated by modem MAC, but not my IP). A rep from Cogeco confirmed there were two duplicate MACs on the system, something that happened from time to time.

Sorry to add to the questions, but am curious more than anything. I'm not affected by this, but just interested overall.

Ndt_tech

join:2012-12-11
reply to TSI Marc
Marc:
I'm curious, Michael Geist said in the Nov 13, 2012 copy of TheTyee.ca, and I quote, " The Canadian approach to unauthorized downloading is now centered on a "notice-and-notice" system that is likely to take effect next year. The system allows rights holders to send notifications alleging infringement to Internet providers, who must forward the notices to their subscribers. THE INTERNET PROVIDER IS NOT REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THE SUBSCRIBER INFORMATION NOR TAKE ANY FURTHER ACTION."

»thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2012/11/13 ··· ght-Law/

Is there any reason the TSI isn't following this policy?????


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
It's not a law yet. Some parts of the new law went into effect. Notice and Notice is the only part that didn't yet.

This is what I was saying in my blog... the timing of all of this is odd.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

dad_of_3

join:2004-05-31
SE Ontario
said by TSI Marc:

It's not a law yet. Some parts of the new law went into effect. Notice and Notice is the only part that didn't yet.

This is what I was saying in my blog... the timing of all of this is odd.

I suspect Voltage is trying to make a last dash at a potential cash cow, before that law comes into effect.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to TSI Marc
(a) the applicant must have a bona fide case against the unknown alleged wrongdoer;

Just so you guys realize that the Court of Appeal just made it easier for Voltage as the threshold for ‘prima facie’ is higher and they would have had to demonstrate that they not only intended to use the information but that they also had to demonstrate that there is some evidence, at fist look, that they suffered damages by TSI customers.

jibby

join:2008-03-31
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:

said by UK_Dave:

Hey Marc,

Just a quick one before I grab a quick afternoon pint...

I mentioned earlier re: log accuracy...

Would you be prepared to put a finger in the air and say your internal, voluntary, logs are 100% accurate?

As accurate as any other ISP...

lol you're getting good at the lawyer-speak already! nice dodge.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
reply to TSI Marc
Gee sure would be interesting if y'all moved off the forum and into the internet relay chat LIVE discourse would be fun. irc.teksavvy.ca #teksavvy
--
IF TREE = FALL AND PEOPLE = ZERO THEN SOUND = 0
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca