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TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to peterboro

Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

said by peterboro:

(a) the applicant must have a bona fide case against the unknown alleged wrongdoer;

Just so you guys realize that the Court of Appeal just made it easier for Voltage as the threshold for ‘prima facie’ is higher and they would have had to demonstrate that they not only intended to use the information but that they also had to demonstrate that there is some evidence, at fist look, that they suffered damages by TSI customers.

That was changed back in 2005 to my understanding.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to Ndt_tech

said by Ndt_tech:

Marc:
I'm curious, Michael Geist said in the Nov 13, 2012 copy of TheTyee.ca, and I quote, " The Canadian approach to unauthorized downloading is now centered on a "notice-and-notice" system that is likely to take effect next year. The system allows rights holders to send notifications alleging infringement to Internet providers, who must forward the notices to their subscribers. THE INTERNET PROVIDER IS NOT REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THE SUBSCRIBER INFORMATION NOR TAKE ANY FURTHER ACTION."

»thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2012/11/13···ght-Law/

Is there any reason the TSI isn't following this policy?????

here's additional info on Notice and Notice that I'm passing along:

Notice and notice is a system that requires ISPs to essentially forward notices of copyright infringement/takedown demands received from rightsholders. They can charge for the service, but are required to forward the notice as soon as reasonably possible and may be subject to statutory damages if they do not.

Here is a link to a comparison between the notice and takedown provisions of the DMCA and the notice and notice provisions of the CMA (link taken from Michael Geist's blog):

»www.entertainmentmedialawsignal.···ignal%29

The provisions themselves are 41.25 and 41.26 and can be found here:

»www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications···le=78#18

I believe there is no current schedule for bringing the sections into force. I believe they are currently working on the regulations that will accompany those sections, and they will come into force when they are ready with that.

In terms of how things would have been different, the answer is that they may not have been. Notice and notice is an alternative scheme requiring notices to be conveyed, but rights holders are still permitted to follow the usual infringement litigation route, and in connection with that can seek disclosure orders.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to jibby

said by jibby:

said by TSI Marc:

said by UK_Dave:

Hey Marc,

Just a quick one before I grab a quick afternoon pint...

I mentioned earlier re: log accuracy...

Would you be prepared to put a finger in the air and say your internal, voluntary, logs are 100% accurate?

As accurate as any other ISP...

lol you're getting good at the lawyer-speak already! nice dodge.

Not sure how that's a dodge? the records are generated by routers... unless those make mistakes.. I'd assume they're the same as any other ISP...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

jibby

join:2008-03-31

well isn't that the question - is it possible that there are mistakes?

do computers and/or routers ever make mistakes? can you, under oath, swear that the IPs you'll provide to Voltage be correct?



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

said by jibby:

well isn't that the question - is it possible that there are mistakes?

do computers and/or routers ever make mistakes? can you, under oath, swear that the IPs you'll provide to Voltage be correct?

it's possible.. solar flares.. all sorts of stuff.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

Dont they say that on September 11, 2001 all the atomic clocks were affected by the collective effect of the world witnessing the events...? it's possible...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


jibby

join:2008-03-31
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

I'll take that as a 'yes i think our logs are 100% accurate' since your examples of what is 'possible' are far fetched (solar flare?)

kinda sounds like you're saying that it's possible the moon is made of cheese, but you're 99.9% sure that it isn't

(or at least thats imo how a judge would interpret your comment)



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

There's not much playing around with this stuff.. it's just there..

unless the time that was given to us is not accurate or the time zone or something like that.. maybe human error in correlating the IP to the name..

The data itself, I've never see it where the data was wrong...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to TSI Marc

Computer mistakes?

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcqLj9eHObU

jibby

join:2008-03-31
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

so there are never cases where an IP or connection isn't properly mapped? we see it in the forums sometimes, where someone is opening tickets for not having a connection yet Bell insists they see the person online

and human error is pretty common

even if human error and improperly mapped connections combined amount to 1% of the 2300 it means that 23 people are going to get sued that don't deserve to be

i'd hope that if an ISP were compelled to give up their subscriber info they'd at least make the court aware of the fact that there is a margin for error in compiling the IP lists (a margin much larger than the possibility of the moon being made of cheese)



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

In fairness. I never suggested the moon was made of cheese.

check this out though:

»www.glcoherence.org/monitoring-s···tem.html

solar flairs are also known to affect electronic devices

Those instances are when a port is not properly mapped but a username is always properly associated to a customer and the IPs are associated to the username... so those instances wouldn't matter here.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to TSI Marc

The only thing that matters is if someone was IP spoofing.
OR you can *prove* that someone had broken into your network.
OR that it was otherwise impossible that someone in your residence had made available the files.



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

Those instances are when a port is not properly mapped but a username is always properly associated to a customer and the IPs are associated to the username... so those instances wouldn't matter here.

Port mapping errors by Bell Canada are indeed well documented. Seen this quite a few times. Believe this was even mentioned in this topic a few pages back, or another.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

The only thing that matters is if someone was IP spoofing.
OR you can *prove* that someone had broken into your network.
OR that it was otherwise impossible that someone in your residence had made available the files.

well. not even that.. the log would still be showing the correct thing...

spoofing wouldn't work on DSL and on Cable you're assigned an IP.. only way is if your MAC is cloned really. Somebody had already posted that earlier today though.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to hm

said by hm :

said by TSI Marc:

Those instances are when a port is not properly mapped but a username is always properly associated to a customer and the IPs are associated to the username... so those instances wouldn't matter here.

Port mapping errors by Bell Canada are indeed well documented. Seen this quite a few times. Believe this was even mentioned in this topic a few pages back, or another.

Yes, I agree but the login name is what allows you to login. no matter where you login with it... it's tied to the customer.. so if the port is not properly mapped.. it doesn't matter, that customer would have used the correct login anyway.

I suppose its possible you shared your login with somebody else... in that case, I wouldn't want to be your friend though.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

dad_of_3

join:2004-05-31
SE Ontario
reply to jibby

said by jibby:

well isn't that the question - is it possible that there are mistakes?

do computers and/or routers ever make mistakes? can you, under oath, swear that the IPs you'll provide to Voltage be correct?

if any data is going to be questioned as to validity, I would start with Canipre's....I wonder if they get paid per IP they manage to scoop up in their giant fish net??hmmm


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

In terms of how things would have been different, the answer is that they may not have been. Notice and notice is an alternative scheme requiring notices to be conveyed, but rights holders are still permitted to follow the usual infringement litigation route, and in connection with that can seek disclosure orders.

Which basically still doesn't change. Not sure about TekSavvy but pretty much every ISP has done the notice and notice system on a voluntary basis for years.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to TSI Marc

I've seen IP spoofing where someone manages to get a duplicate IP. Of course the IP transfers fail at some point going to the wrong destination. But all it takes is one Connect and hey presto, they've gotcha.

It's rare, I'll grant you.



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

spoofing wouldn't work on DSL and on Cable you're assigned an IP..

If I'm not mistaken (sbrook can correct me if i'm wrong here), I think sbrook meant if you are indeed innocent, your machine rooted, and someone (or mufti-people) are using your IP as a proxy.

Yes, your logs would show the correct IP, but no one at all from that machine with that IP would even be aware, know, or be the wiser.

And since you don't seem to log other IP transactions going on, no one could even validate such a claim.

Example:
Me, from Videotron, finds a sweet Teksavvy proxy from Samir's Canadian proxy list. I put the socks port and IP in my torrent client and my IP never touches the bittorretn network, Only the Teksavy IP.

I'm in the clear, the sucker with the teksavvy IP gets nailed with an extortion letter.

Since you log nothing else about IP transactions (it would appear), whoever owns that teksavvy IP is doomed. Unless they can show, prove, and pay an expert they were indeed rooted and used as a proxy using data on that IP's machine.

Hate to say it, and I feel really bad all of a sudden for doing it, but i've done this many times to people in the states or Japan (Japanese IP's tend to be V fast). But never did this on torrents personally. But it can be done.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

Of course the IP transfers fail at some point going to the wrong destination.

It's rare, I'll grant you.

No, it doesn't. Depends if it's properly set-up.

Not "rare" at all. But rather quite common.

Although I haven't done this in some years, bet I could pull it off and post screen shots by tonight or tomorrow morning.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to hm

I'm happy to look into any situation if need be...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



hm

@videotron.ca

ok then, I'll give it a go later this evening. Just a matter of finding an IP/sucker to use and i'll try it on a small "legal" torrent in case someone gets pissed off and causes crap.

That is, if the mod's allow this little educational experience to show. I'll let you talk to them about that.



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

said by hm :

ok then, I'll give it a go later this evening. Just a matter of finding an IP/sucker to use and i'll try it on a small "legal" torrent in case someone gets pissed off and causes crap.

That is, if the mod's allow this little educational experience to show. I'll let you talk to them about that.

haha. sure.. the obvious question then though will be... so, did that occur in any of the cases listed by Voltage?
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

tired

join:2010-12-12

In the 2000 or so IP addresses that they sent for review, were there any "bad" ones that didn't match up to a person? Or is the ~900 discrepancy between IPs and persons notified due to people being caught on multiple IPs?


vientito1

join:2009-01-09

1 recommendation

reply to TypeS

Someone should alert RCMP to proceed with an investigation if canipre hires third-parties to collaborate with them to generate spoofed IP addresses to enable them to threaten these owners for payment. Then that would turn a civil case into a criminal case. The hunter would become the hunted.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·WIND Mobile
reply to TSI Marc

There's the thing, you still have plenty to fear even if you are not found liable. You still can be taken to court (costly in and of itself, and even if you are found not liable and get costs, then it's still a horrible inconvenience. Moreover, this isn't like criminal court where they presume you innocent and the prosecutor must prove you guilty. This is a pair of scales ... their evidence on one side, and your evidence on the other. As long as the scale balances the slightest on their side, then you will be found liable for paying damages specified by the court. All you can hope is that you can keep the evidence in your favour as close to the balance point or in your favour as possible.

This is NOT a case of innocent until proven guilty and they have to prove guilty beyond a resonable doublt. All reasonable doubt does for you is to bring the preponderance of evidence in your favour, or at least as close to level as possible even if it's in their favour (since this will generally reduce the damages awarded).



TypeS

@rogers.com
reply to hm

said by hm :

If I'm not mistaken (sbrook can correct me if i'm wrong here), I think sbrook meant if you are indeed innocent, your machine rooted, and someone (or mufti-people) are using your IP as a proxy.

Yes, your logs would show the correct IP, but no one at all from that machine with that IP would even be aware, know, or be the wiser.

And since you don't seem to log other IP transactions going on, no one could even validate such a claim.

Example:
Me, from Videotron, finds a sweet Teksavvy proxy from Samir's Canadian proxy list. I put the socks port and IP in my torrent client and my IP never touches the bittorretn network, Only the Teksavy IP.

I'm in the clear, the sucker with the teksavvy IP gets nailed with an extortion letter.

Since you log nothing else about IP transactions (it would appear), whoever owns that teksavvy IP is doomed. Unless they can show, prove, and pay an expert they were indeed rooted and used as a proxy using data on that IP's machine.

The thing about that is though, as I understand it (I could be wrong), according to the courts you're responsible for what goes on in your own home networks and devices connected to it. It's like with unsecured wireless networks. If someone gets on your wireless network, uses your internet access to do something malicious, the responsibility falls on you to have made sure no one had unauthorized access to your network.

So with rooting, the responsibility would be on the owner of the computer to secure their computer from being taken over.

Not that I agree with this, since its akin to someone having their car stolen, thief runs someone over and the Crown Attorney goes after the owner of the car for not having a car alarm or some other anti-theft method.

The person's name on the account is responsible for all activity on that account, as far as I understand. "I got hacked" wouldn't hold up.

I see a lot of stones being thrown at Teksavvy in this thread and lot of unjustifiable.

First of all, if you're innocent (barring hm's example), you've nothing to fear. If you know you're not, well, that's the gamble anyone takes in using something like torrents for downloading material you know you know shouldn't (according to the law, not that Im saying you shouldn't)

Second, bootlegging has always been illegal. So should the absurd prices of a DVD/BluRay/CD be. But the law is the law, you're supposed to obtain copyrighted materials through approved method by the distributor.

If you dont agree, well you're bone to pick isn't with Teksavvy but 1) the corporations like Voltage looking to nickle and dime you for every cent you got and 2) the legislature that lets corporations operate the way they do.

As far as logging goes, Teksavvy owns its IP network infrastructure, not the customer. We pay for having connectivity to the internet at a certain rate and for a certain amount of bandwidth. If Teksavvy wants to keep logs, they can. And as stated numerous times in this thread their logs dont keep tabs on what you do, just the IP address, times and how much data came in and out. Voltage has already done the spying as to what a specific IP address has done. They want the IP addresses tied to a name they can go after.

If you're really against logging of any form, well you're free to go do your research to find an ISP in Canada that doesn't log IP address activity at all. My hunch is there isn't one but who knows.

bjlockie

join:2007-12-16
Ottawa, DSL
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

OR that it was otherwise impossible that someone in your residence had made available the files.

The name of the person that the account is registered to is legally responsible for ALL use of that account (ie. all users).


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to TSI Marc


Ref 1: Sucker List
Click for full size
Ref 2: The Sucker
Click for full size
Ref 3: Sucker 2
said by TSI Marc:

said by hm :

ok then, I'll give it a go later this evening. Just a matter of finding an IP/sucker to use and i'll try it on a small "legal" torrent in case someone gets pissed off and causes crap.

That is, if the mod's allow this little educational experience to show. I'll let you talk to them about that.

haha. sure.. the obvious question then though will be... so, did that occur in any of the cases listed by Voltage?

ok, Marc, I did the following.

1. Just went to some recently released and tested proxies (i could have scanned for a Teksavvy IP and proxy if I wanted to, but am cheaping out due to the speed and laziness).

Ref: Picture #1 (highlighted random chosen IP used)

2. I just pumped the IP and sox port into bit torrent

Ref. Pic #2 The sucker who will get the extortion letter.

3. Note: I took a torrent which is apparently free and legal found here:
»www.clearbits.net/movies/page/1/downloads

4. I was VERY surprised that this thing came in at 3.5meg. Screen capture is at the end of the DL dropping off to something like 300+ kb/s

Ref: Picture #3 (max sped achieved ~3.5-meg)

So, Marc, I could very easily get a Teksavvy IP if I tried hard enough and if *really* wanted to. So could CANIPRE. heh, So could Voltage for that matter.

Back in the day I used to be into 0day and 0sec proxies. Many were as detailed here: »Re: Voltage-Hurt Locker Lawsuit Round 2 Against Teksavvy Users

Many people would sell specific IP's and they still do. Want a whole range of 2000+ Teksavvy IP's? Sure, 200$.

We used to take over warez chanz like this

I would spoof the IP off by a single lousy digit of the bot masters or chan owners, whose bots would auto-op them. Used to have a lot of fun.

Took me a whole 20-minutes to do the above because I'm rusty and no longer have scanners installed etc. Set-up... hmm... for a specific IP or off by a single digit... 5 minutes to an hour depending what country or IP range since some were harder than others.

I'm 100% convinced this is how "pierre poutin" did it. But when I explained this it this topic, »Trail of Pierre Poutine leads to open Wi-Fi connection, kids today don't want to listen. They are into TV stuff like war-driving and don't want to listen to old farts.

So anyone wanting a proxy, that IP is *NICE* or it was when I used it in this test.

I could also use this method as web proxies to bypass DSLr's "hold back" on anon comments and have a comment post right away w/o the mods first approving it. Way-back-when I would be doing this... but today... you get old and lazy and don't care anymore. Besides the mod's need something to do.

So Marc, can be done. Easy-peasy. And can all be done via a teksavvy IP and mine never showing, ever. Except if the rooted machine has logging and that's if I didn't chain 2 proxies or more together, which we would do often so even your logs would never show my IP connecting to your teksavvy IP to instruct it to DL off the torrent network for me.

Yes, sbrook, it works very well. No problems with a properly setup proxy.

I think today, if you know nothing and if you wanted one single teksavvy IP I could likely get one fast for about 5$. Or I would take the time and do it myself.

My apologies to the sucker I used to demonstrate this.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to TypeS

said by TypeS :

So with rooting, the responsibility would be on the owner of the computer to secure their computer from being taken over.

heh I know people who work 2 shifts every day. They come home, drop on a chair check their stocks, go to bed, rinse repeat.

The only thing they know how is to press the power button.

Now try explaining the above to one of them and try telling them how they can ix it? Try even convincing them this is happening to them.

Good luck.

They will pay the extortion fee even if they have never heard of torrents or voltage in all their life. End of Story. They will be mad, hate teksavvy, but this is what happens.

And *no one* is the wiser. Not even Teksavvy.

Experts w/ Elections Canada couldn't nail Pierre Poutine with this.. Come on. Mom & Pop are screwed.