resa1983Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:7 Reviews:
 ·TekSavvy Cable
| reply to The Mongoose
Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday. said by The Mongoose:said by jedi :And what about commercial infringement claim? Money changing hands or accounts? It is clearly a BS designed to raise the extortion sum bar and has to be challenged.
This might be the most glaring weak point of Voltage's case. Even if they do get past this hearing and start suing people, there's virtually no way they can make this stick. Or you know, CIPPIC/TSI could bring up the fact that the program that Canipre uses is extremely flawed, and have lots of proof.. There's been plenty of evidence as to how flawed that program is.
Expect that Monday's hearing will be full of twists and turns people. 
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| In order for their to be twists and turns, the people affected need to show up and represent themselves, so at a minimum i'm hoping they are smart enough to do that. |
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resa1983Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:7 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| said by d_source:In order for their to be twists and turns, the people affected need to show up and represent themselves, so at a minimum i'm hoping they are smart enough to do that.
You're assuming the judge won't allow CIPPIC to intervene?
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Battle.net Tech Support MVP |
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| If I were one of the people affected, i definitely wouldn't rely on that! I'd have my own lawyer in there for sure! I'm not even with TSI and I am going to support the funds being collected to stop this mess. It NEEDS to stop on Monday. |
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| reply to d_source
said by d_source:In order for their to be twists and turns, the people affected need to show up and represent themselves, so at a minimum i'm hoping they are smart enough to do that.
Wrong.
They need to have counsel represent them.
Voltage knows nobody's names/addresses now. You want to be an idiot and show up to represent *yourself* - and go on the record with your name & address - fine, be a fool and do that. Next thing you'll be looking at is a subpoena to seize your computer & backups to look for evidence of infringement. That's what I'd do to anyone who *gave up* their identity as you've proposed. |
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| reply to resa1983
said by resa1983:said by d_source:In order for their to be twists and turns, the people affected need to show up and represent themselves, so at a minimum i'm hoping they are smart enough to do that.
You're assuming the judge won't allow CIPPIC to intervene? There is no guarantee that the judge will allow CIPPIC to intervene.
TSI made a deal with Voltage to allow TSI to allow time for TSI to contact those alleged to have infringed to allow them to represent themselves (hopefully via counsel) in court. The 14th is that date.
If no counsel shows up for individuals, and Voltage says "Your Honour, TSI and us had a deal, and now there's there is this CIPPIC thing trying to force their way in - when no counsel of record for anybody showed up, come on - give us a break. We did everything we said we would. The alleged infringers were notified and chose not to represent themselves. Please grant us the order requiring TSI to hand over the names."
If that's the way the 14th played out, and I were the judge, I'd be inclined to agree with Voltage. |
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| reply to resa1983
Noone seems to mention commercial infringement filed by trolls. There is not a shred of evidence of commercial infringement in a first place - where are records of transaction and money changing hands, records of personal financial gain by 2000+ IPs? Correct - there is NONE. |
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| reply to MaynardKrebs
Yes, sorry, when I say represent themselves, I meant anonymously by sending counsel on their behalf, you are correct.
And you have a very good point. If no counsel appears from the ~2300 affected, why would the judge allow CIPPIC to intervene? Again, if it were me, there's no way I would let this go unfettered. |
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1 edit | reply to amik
said by amik :Noone seems to mention commercial infringement filed by trolls. There is not a shred of evidence of commercial infringement in a first place - where are records of transaction and money changing hands, records of personal financial gain by 2000+ IPs? Correct - there is NONE.
Perhaps all this is true of all ~2000 individuals.
But there is no way of knowing for sure without going to trial, doing examinations for discovery, and forensic analysis on every computer/backup, and bank records.
Voltage isn't going to do that because it would cost them tens of thousands for EACH person to do that, and then when they couldn't prove commercial infringement each defendant would claim $20-$100k in costs against Voltage.
If I were the judge on the 14th and did in fact let Voltage have the names, I would make it a condition that Voltage sue each named person in Federal Court and incur the costs of making their case, rather than simply sending extortion letters. There is NO a priori way of knowing who of the ~2000 actually infringed without going to trial.
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FYI
The Criminal Code of Canada says this:
346. Extortion
346. (1) Every one commits extortion who, without reasonable justification or excuse and with intent to obtain anything, by threats, accusations, menaces or violence induces or attempts to induce any person, whether or not he is the person threatened, accused or menaced or to whom violence is shown, to do anything or cause anything to be done.
Extortion
(1.1) Every person who commits extortion is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
yada yada yada
Saving
(2) A threat to institute civil proceedings is not a threat for the purposes of this section.
In other words....
346(2) gets Voltage off the criminal hook. |
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| reply to d_source
>why would the judge allow CIPPIC to intervene?
I think CIPPIC makes an argument for that in their latest letter? The judge did read their first one so that's could be taken as a positive sign. |
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Tong
join:2012-12-11
r3t 38x | reply to MaynardKrebs
I keep hearing this "deal" is made. Isn't there a law that ISP is required to inform the customer a third party is requesting private information? I think it is the "Notice to Notice" or something? So I'm don't know what is this "deal" all about. |
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| reply to Dr Facts
said by Dr Facts :>why would the judge allow CIPPIC to intervene?
I think CIPPIC makes an argument for that in their latest letter? The judge did read their first one so that's could be taken as a positive sign.
We won't know *what* it means until the 14th.
Right now all it means is that he's read the letter and is considering what comes next. |
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resa1983Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:7 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| The motion to intervene by CIPPIC was filed on the 21st last month, and served to both Voltage & Teksavvy. I linked it before I think...
Either way, it'll be decided on on Monday, with additional arguments CIPPIC has held in reserve, as well as plenty of evidence. I know I've been tossing a few things off to CIPPIC to help them out...
One thing I'm wondering... Has CIPPIC ever been denied on a motion to intervene?
The Judge seemed open to hearing CIPPIC, until Plaintiff's counsel brought up the fact that CIPPIC hadn't formally filed to intervene.. But still read the intent to intervene, which he didn't need to do.
I think its encouraging.
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Battle.net Tech Support MVP |
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| reply to MaynardKrebs
So, basically its an extortion attempt under a false pretenses then. Lovely |
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| I wonder if we could class-action their asses after all this is done. |
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| reply to resa1983
What I don't get is why so many people seem to think that CIPPIC will be able to win this on their own. Is everyone putting their eggs into that basket only? I see a lot of people posting here about what could/should be done, about what TSI should do, and CIPPIC, but I haven't read anyone's post that they have contacted a lawyer and that their lawyer will be present on Monday. Unless that happens, I see this as an easy victory for Voltage, sadly. And then the extortion letters will begin and other companies will follow the leader. This is so wrong in so many ways and yet I don't see anyone defending themselves properly. |
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| It would cost that brave person hundreds of dollars to bring a lawyer in for the hearing. Are you willing to put down 500$ for the good of everyone ?
Also, not everyone lives in Toronto.
So you can add travel cost and time to that. |
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resa1983Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:7 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| reply to d_source
said by d_source:What I don't get is why so many people seem to think that CIPPIC will be able to win this on their own. Is everyone putting their eggs into that basket only? I see a lot of people posting here about what could/should be done, about what TSI should do, and CIPPIC, but I haven't read anyone's post that they have contacted a lawyer and that their lawyer will be present on Monday. Unless that happens, I see this as an easy victory for Voltage, sadly. And then the extortion letters will begin and other companies will follow the leader. This is so wrong in so many ways and yet I don't see anyone defending themselves properly.
The case can't continue on until CIPPIC's motion to intervene is ruled on by the Judge, which may or may not happen on Monday.
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Battle.net Tech Support MVP |
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 A LurkerPremium
join:2007-10-27
Burlington, ON | reply to d_source
said by d_source:This is so wrong in so many ways and yet I don't see anyone defending themselves properly.
I haven't kept up on the entire thread, however, a lot of people posting here were not on the list of IPs. Those that are, if they have consulted a lawyer, were probably first told not to talk about it publically. |
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 El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:2
 ·TekSavvy DSL
 ·WIND Mobile
 ·voip.ms
| said by A Lurker:I haven't kept up on the entire thread, however, a lot of people posting here were not on the list of IPs. Those that are, if they have consulted a lawyer, were probably first told not to talk about it publically.
QFT, discussing your legal strategy in an area where your opponents could find out what it is, is a bad idea.
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