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Tong
join:2012-12-11
r3t 38x

Tong to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs

Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

I keep hearing this "deal" is made. Isn't there a law that ISP is required to inform the customer a third party is requesting private information? I think it is the "Notice to Notice" or something? So I'm don't know what is this "deal" all about.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to Dr Facts

Premium Member

to Dr Facts
said by Dr Facts :

>why would the judge allow CIPPIC to intervene?

I think CIPPIC makes an argument for that in their latest letter? The judge did read their first one so that's could be taken as a positive sign.

We won't know *what* it means until the 14th.
Right now all it means is that he's read the letter and is considering what comes next.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

The motion to intervene by CIPPIC was filed on the 21st last month, and served to both Voltage & Teksavvy. I linked it before I think...

Either way, it'll be decided on on Monday, with additional arguments CIPPIC has held in reserve, as well as plenty of evidence. I know I've been tossing a few things off to CIPPIC to help them out...

One thing I'm wondering... Has CIPPIC ever been denied on a motion to intervene?

The Judge seemed open to hearing CIPPIC, until Plaintiff's counsel brought up the fact that CIPPIC hadn't formally filed to intervene.. But still read the intent to intervene, which he didn't need to do.

I think its encouraging.

amik
@snydernet.net

amik to MaynardKrebs

Anon

to MaynardKrebs
So, basically its an extortion attempt under a false pretenses then. Lovely

Zing
@beanfield.net

Zing

Anon

I wonder if we could class-action their asses after all this is done.
d_source
join:2011-01-18

d_source to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
What I don't get is why so many people seem to think that CIPPIC will be able to win this on their own. Is everyone putting their eggs into that basket only? I see a lot of people posting here about what could/should be done, about what TSI should do, and CIPPIC, but I haven't read anyone's post that they have contacted a lawyer and that their lawyer will be present on Monday. Unless that happens, I see this as an easy victory for Voltage, sadly. And then the extortion letters will begin and other companies will follow the leader. This is so wrong in so many ways and yet I don't see anyone defending themselves properly.

Zing
@teksavvy.com

Zing

Anon

It would cost that brave person hundreds of dollars to bring a lawyer in for the hearing. Are you willing to put down 500$ for the good of everyone ?

Also, not everyone lives in Toronto.
So you can add travel cost and time to that.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983 to d_source

Premium Member

to d_source
said by d_source:

What I don't get is why so many people seem to think that CIPPIC will be able to win this on their own. Is everyone putting their eggs into that basket only? I see a lot of people posting here about what could/should be done, about what TSI should do, and CIPPIC, but I haven't read anyone's post that they have contacted a lawyer and that their lawyer will be present on Monday. Unless that happens, I see this as an easy victory for Voltage, sadly. And then the extortion letters will begin and other companies will follow the leader. This is so wrong in so many ways and yet I don't see anyone defending themselves properly.

The case can't continue on until CIPPIC's motion to intervene is ruled on by the Judge, which may or may not happen on Monday.

A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium Member
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

A Lurker to d_source

Premium Member

to d_source
said by d_source:

This is so wrong in so many ways and yet I don't see anyone defending themselves properly.

I haven't kept up on the entire thread, however, a lot of people posting here were not on the list of IPs. Those that are, if they have consulted a lawyer, were probably first told not to talk about it publically.

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by A Lurker:

I haven't kept up on the entire thread, however, a lot of people posting here were not on the list of IPs. Those that are, if they have consulted a lawyer, were probably first told not to talk about it publically.

QFT, discussing your legal strategy in an area where your opponents could find out what it is, is a bad idea.

citizenkane
@bell.ca

citizenkane to d_source

Anon

to d_source
i would not call it extortion.
i mean they broke the law.
it's either you settle outside of court or you take your chances with the law. simple as that. don't like it.. don't pirate.
said by d_source:

What I don't get is why so many people seem to think that CIPPIC will be able to win this on their own. Is everyone putting their eggs into that basket only? I see a lot of people posting here about what could/should be done, about what TSI should do, and CIPPIC, but I haven't read anyone's post that they have contacted a lawyer and that their lawyer will be present on Monday. Unless that happens, I see this as an easy victory for Voltage, sadly. And then the extortion letters will begin and other companies will follow the leader. This is so wrong in so many ways and yet I don't see anyone defending themselves properly.

Tong
join:2012-12-11
r3t 38x

Tong

Member

We don't like the settle price they are asking, so we will see you in court. However, I have not seen one case where someone file defense in court and then they take the person to court.
JohnDoe187
join:2013-01-04

JohnDoe187 to citizenkane

Member

to citizenkane
said by citizenkane :

i would not call it extortion.
i mean they broke the law.
it's either you settle outside of court or you take your chances with the law. simple as that. don't like it.. don't pirate.

1. The last time I check you are innocent until proven guilty. The motion is against Teksavvy to hand over the Does information. Maybe you should try to read carefully and thoroughly before you make a ridiculous post.

2. It is extortion and it seems all the professionals disagree with you.
FatBastid
join:2012-12-27
Toronto, ON

FatBastid to citizenkane

Member

to citizenkane
said by citizenkane :

i would not call it extortion.
i mean they broke the law.
it's either you settle outside of court or you take your chances with the law. simple as that. don't like it.. don't pirate.

That's a somewhat ignorant statement on your part. Because you don't know if "they", being ALL the people being accused, broke the law.

And even if "they" did, if you've been reading this thread you should know that it's not the point. This situation is like doing 10 km/h over the speed limit on an empty road and then later, based on a picture taken by a 3rd party, receiving a summons for dangerous driving. Speeding 10 km over the limit is about a $50 fine. A dangerous driving conviction results in a criminal record and (in Ontario) an automatic one-year license suspension (for a first offense). The charges are ridiculous, the evidence to support them even more so, but now you have to spend thousands of dollars appearing in court and fighting the system. You are of the opinion that there would be nothing wrong with such a situation, and those who don't like it, shouldn't drive. All I can say is, wow.
cynic10
join:2011-02-05

1 edit

cynic10 to citizenkane

Member

to citizenkane
said by citizenkane :

i would not call it extortion.
i mean they broke the law.
it's either you settle outside of court or you take your chances with the law. simple as that. don't like it.. don't pirate.

Please go educate yourself further on the matter before making such statements. You come off as very ignorant and I'm trying to be nice here.

God forbid, if you or your family members ever get mistakenly accused of pirating, I'd like to see you eat your words and put your money where your mouth is, assuming you or they can even afford to settle.
banishtrolls
join:2013-01-11
Montreal, QC

banishtrolls to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Marc - You really need to decide that you will not be a "sell-out" and you really need to fight this as hard as you can, for your sake and your customers. Don't set a precedent by simply rolling over.

Do you think the 2000 will still want to be your customers? What about the next batch of 2000, and the next after that? What about the people like me who recommend TSI to their customers and shun companies who willingly hurt their own customers? Don't expect any business from me if you continue on the road of indifference (not my problem.)

Privacy is a huge unresolved issue vis-a-vis the Internet. Ask Facebook.
If you have a good conscience, you should already know you're making a mistake. Don't take the easy road. Don't be evil. Listen to what the majority view here says (you are wrong.)

Even if you don't win, at least you will be able to hold your head up high and say "I did my best."

random
@teksavvy.com

random to citizenkane

Anon

to citizenkane
It is a civil court not a criminal court. It is not like the RCMP caught these people, but the plaintive claimed that they do.

At this point, it is their word vs everyone else. This first part is the release of users information. Until the actual trial case(s) (if at all) on the infringement, can't even say they have broken the law or not.

These 2000+ people from an ISP are being sued for "commercial" copyright infringement which is highly unlikely.

shikotee
join:2007-01-11
Canada

shikotee to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
An interesting column on the lack of representation in court:
»www.financialpost.com/m/ ··· entation
d_source
join:2011-01-18

d_source

Member

What a great article. That's exactly the way I see it. Of 2300+ invloved, no one will be there to quash this. CIPPIC will not be granted to intervene and TSI will just sit there and do nothing even though they very well could. And all those names, most of which i assume are not guilty, will be fed to the dogs. I feel Monday will be a sad sad day to be a Canadian.
Jaxom
join:2012-03-10
East York, ON

Jaxom to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Civil court issues should not be grounds for personal data to be disclosed.

Unfortunately the Conservatives are trying to make it possible that cops don't even need a search warrant any more to get our personal information. Absolutely offensive fascist laws.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983 to TSI Marc

Premium Member

to TSI Marc
Keep in mind that the financial post did a puff piece the day after the first hearing, about nothing, without including any info. All it did was scare.

Seriously though, I don't think the judge will continue the hearings without ruling on CIPPIC's motion to intervene first, as they'd just have to go over stuff again. It wastes time, and everyone wants this over & done with.

All they're doing is trying to sell subs, and keep the issue in the limelight so they can do a 'major' piece come Monday.
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj

Member

said by resa1983:

Seriously though, I don't think the judge will continue the hearings without ruling on CIPPIC's motion to intervene first, as they'd just have to go over stuff again. It wastes time, and everyone wants this over & done with.

Wouldn't it be wasting a different court's time though? Judges are often happy to punt an issue down the road if they can.

TSI is playing with fire here. Their savvy customers, which for ages has been their core business, will find other providers en mass if the CIPPIC motion is denied and customer records handed over to this troll. It's a fundamental betryal of their trust.
d_source
join:2011-01-18

d_source

Member

If I were a TSI customer and my info was released i'd be upset with them as well, but you can't put the entire blame on them. They gave 2300+ people plenty of time to find a lawyer and be represented anonymously in court on Monday. If these people choose to not fight it themselves and HOPE to have someone else fight on their behalf, then it's on them if they lose, not just on TSI.
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj

Member

said by d_source:

If I were a TSI customer and my info was released i'd be upset with them as well, but you can't put the entire blame on them. They gave 2300+ people plenty of time to find a lawyer and be represented anonymously in court on Monday. If these people choose to not fight it themselves and HOPE to have someone else fight on their behalf, then it's on them if they lose, not just on TSI.

True, but why pay a lawyer to fight anonymously for you at this point? Hiring a lawyer at this stage sets up an individual for a lengthy and expensive court battle. We all agree that any infringement case brought by Voltage to an individual would eventually be tossed, once a judge is made to consider the methods used by canipre etc. To me, that would be the appropriate time to find a lawyer.

Furthermore, looking at the list of movies allegedly pirated, I'd almost suspect Voltage of going after the dumbest pirates they can find . I'd almost say there's more to this fishing expedition by Voltage than meets the eye...
jkoblovsky
join:2011-09-27
Keswick, ON

jkoblovsky to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
said by resa1983:

Keep in mind that the financial post did a puff piece the day after the first hearing, about nothing, without including any info. All it did was scare.

Seriously though, I don't think the judge will continue the hearings without ruling on CIPPIC's motion to intervene first, as they'd just have to go over stuff again. It wastes time, and everyone wants this over & done with.

All they're doing is trying to sell subs, and keep the issue in the limelight so they can do a 'major' piece come Monday.

Actually the column shikotee quoted seems to be balanced. I'm a bit surprised by this. Major media outlets have their own interests with respect to copyright reform. There were "puff" pieces from all major news outlets the day after the hearing that was strongly one sided around copyright issues. The reporter that wrote this is also a "reformed lawyer".

Traditionally it's the blogosphere that is responsible for providing information to make sure there is a balanced view to readers. Something that seems to be represented on my stats over the past month. The vast majority that are coming to my blog with respect to this issue, are doing so via searches from Google on Tekksavvy and Voltage, and there is A LOT of people searching on this right now.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato to booj

Member

to booj
said by booj:

said by resa1983:

Seriously though, I don't think the judge will continue the hearings without ruling on CIPPIC's motion to intervene first, as they'd just have to go over stuff again. It wastes time, and everyone wants this over & done with.

Wouldn't it be wasting a different court's time though? Judges are often happy to punt an issue down the road if they can.

TSI is playing with fire here. Their savvy customers, which for ages has been their core business, will find other providers en mass if the CIPPIC motion is denied and customer records handed over to this troll. It's a fundamental betryal of their trust.

Already happening, when u combine Teksavvy prices which are higher, than almost all other indys, with there lack of willingness to Oppose disclosure its a no brainer, i've been with teksavvy 5 years now and am leaving for a different company this hearing being a major factor, and as much as i love teksavvy i hope they lose thousands over this. so they get the message, and other isps do as well.
d_source
join:2011-01-18

d_source to booj

Member

to booj
I'd pay the lawyer at this point to make sure that it doesn't go any further. It'll be cheaper to do so now and the issue will have been completely resolved, which peace of mind is worth a lot in these matters as well IMO.
Who7
join:2012-12-18

Who7 to jkoblovsky

Member

to jkoblovsky
said by jkoblovsky:

Traditionally it's the blogosphere that is responsible for providing information to make sure there is a balanced view to readers. Something that seems to be represented on my stats over the past month. The vast majority that are coming to my blog with respect to this issue, are doing so via searches from Google on Tekksavvy and Voltage, and there is A LOT of people searching on this right now.

Let's make sure that the light show that TSI rolled over based on a cold calculating business decision of what was cheaper for them rather then concerns about their customers privacy.

And while we are at it, strip away the attempt by TSI to spin the delay as "concern" and "care" for their customers. All they did was what the law requires of them to do so to begin with.

Keep shinning the light on them.
JohnDoe187
join:2013-01-04

JohnDoe187

Member

This is so true I think a lot of ppl where mislead to think TSI gave 2 sh$ts via Marc's blog and then bam as the trial neared Marc post some ridiculous Why we are not opposing in DSLReport and not his blog??! Get real...
jkoblovsky
join:2011-09-27
Keswick, ON

1 edit

jkoblovsky

Member

said by JohnDoe187:

This is so true I think a lot of ppl where mislead to think TSI gave 2 sh$ts via Marc's blog and then bam as the trial neared Marc post some ridiculous Why we are not opposing in DSLReport and not his blog??! Get real...

I think it's representative of a much larger issue within copyright policy, and that is that there are too many in the private sector that directly protect themselves and run for the door around copyright issues, rather than thinking of the people that ultimately are effected by this.

Copyright policy is intimidating for a lot of reasons, but the reality of where we are with copyright policy, companies should be less concerned about the implications in sticking up for their customers. From SOPA/PIPA, to ACTA and the TPP the copyright lobby is loosing huge within law around the globe. The copyright lobby is now forced to "troll" as a result. They've lost the ideological battle on this.

The thing that really peeves me off about all of this, knowing how weak the copyright lobbies position is, that we're still faced with some in the private sector hiding behind rocks, rather than taking on their direct responsibility under law. That to me, no matter how this turns out with the CIPPIC is wrong, and if history has taught us anything around copyright and how consumers react to this, that may very well change in the days, weeks, months ahead.

In short, there's more of us then there are of them. As a business, I would be more concerned on what consumers think, than any penalties or threats from the IP lobby who's in an extremely weak position within law in the first place. Consumers right now, hold the balance of power on copyright policy globally. And that's represented by the political reaction to not just the EU on ACTA, but also within US politics as well:

»thehill.com/blogs/hillic ··· congress

Copyright policy also seems to be the #1 issue in Canada as well when you look at the digital economy. Traditional media seems to have a lot less credibility then us bloggers do on the issue:

»wordsbynowak.com/2013/01 ··· tistics/