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MoreFaxes

join:2002-09-27
United

I am not affected but I am worried / thinking to abandon TSI

I have numerous Teksavvy services. I have been alarmed by the recent development of company directions.

I am worried.
1. How do we know if dyanmic IP log is accurate? What if there is an error in time clock resulting in false accusation?
2. How do we know if Teksavvy will even maintain the log properly?

For these reasons, I am thinking to terminate my Teksavvy internet services. They are worried about getting sued. So am I, so I am going somewhere else. I would not like to take a chance, just like Teksavvy does not like to take a chance in order to fight for privacy.

I am voting with my wallet!


TSI Gabe
Router of Packets
Premium,VIP
join:2007-01-03
Gatineau, QC
kudos:7

1 recommendation

I've worked for many ISP in my life. And I can assure you that every single one of them will turn you in on a court order.

The only difference about it in this case is that we were open about it which makes me proud to work for TekSavvy.

And to address your questions, all our servers are NTP synchronized to a stratum-1 clock source.
--
TSI Gabe - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )


NytOwl

join:2012-09-27
canada

1 edit
reply to MoreFaxes
said by MoreFaxes:

For these reasons, I am thinking to terminate my Teksavvy internet services. They are worried about getting sued. So am I, so I am going somewhere else. I would not like to take a chance, just like Teksavvy does not like to take a chance in order to fight for privacy.

I am voting with my wallet!

...What?

Do you seriously believe that whichever ISP you move to will fight for your privacy more-so than TSI, or would keep logs for less than 90 days, or would not be subject to the same laws and types of court orders?

Really?

Please enlighten us with which ISP you're considering moving to. Bell? Rogers?

Any of the big incumbents would hang you out to dry faster than you could blink; all they care about is pure profit and they will not spend a penny of said profit to defend their customers' privacy. I can also guarantee their log retention is far longer than TSI, so don't kid yourself if that's where you're heading. I'd also find it laughable if you think that a big bureaucratic incumbent's logging accuracy would outweigh that of TSI's.

As for other smaller ISPs similar to TSI? Yes, there are quite a few. But I think you'd be quite hard-pressed to find one that is nearly as open and honest about how they handle their operations and legal challenges as TSI.

I'm all for voting with one's wallet, but please be smart about the premise of your decision.
Expand your moderator at work

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
reply to MoreFaxes

Re: I am not affected but I am worried / thinking to abandon TSI

Where are you going to go to, maybe an incumbent desperately trying to keep threats away from its legacy TV media business model....

mattvmotas
Premium
join:2010-09-04
Amherstburg, ON
reply to MoreFaxes
said by MoreFaxes:

I have numerous Teksavvy services. I have been alarmed by the recent development of company directions.

I am worried.
1. How do we know if dyanmic IP log is accurate? What if there is an error in time clock resulting in false accusation?
2. How do we know if Teksavvy will even maintain the log properly?

For these reasons, I am thinking to terminate my Teksavvy internet services. They are worried about getting sued. So am I, so I am going somewhere else. I would not like to take a chance, just like Teksavvy does not like to take a chance in order to fight for privacy.

I am voting with my wallet!

Wow, where to start.

1. Dynamic IP logging accuracy is determined in a court of law, regardless of which ISP you are using. That is why we are innocent until proven guilty. The accuser would have to prove you actually downloaded or shared the content in question, the burden of proof is on the rights holder not the individual.
2. How can you be sure Bell Canada maintains correct logs, cell logs, land line call logs? You cannot, which is why again, the burden of proof lies on the rights holder. Simply connecting you to an IP they believe violated their copyright is not enough proof in any court.

If you are worried about getting sued, then don't download and share pirated media. If you have not pirated content, then you are not guilty of anything and you will win every time.
--
Matt


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
said by mattvmotas:

If you are worried about getting sued, then don't download and share pirated media. If you have not pirated content, then you are not guilty of anything and you will win every time.

Except, occassionally someone's modem's mac address is forged and used without their knowledge.
IP's can be spoofed
MAC's can be spoofed.
Trojans and Botnets can exaserbate the situation without the user knowing.
those are just a few examples, I'm sure there are more.

Whether or not you've downloaded infringing material the point of this sort of shake down is to compell you to pay up front or otherwise to go court and go into further financial difficulty innocent or not. Its an underhanded extortion scheme fishing expedition, where these troll companies use the courts to facilitate their twisted business model. See the CIPPIC paper here for a little clairification.

We're not discussing a life threatening or federal crime here.
This is a civil matter.
--
IF TREE = FALL AND PEOPLE = ZERO THEN SOUND = 0
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
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said by TwiztedZero:

We're not discussing a life threatening or federal crime here.
This is a civil matter.

Agreed.
But it can cost you fifty thousands dollars in lawyer & expert witness fees to fight even if you're innocent. Not many people have that kind of cash laying around.


sbrook
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Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
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reply to mattvmotas
said by mattvmotas:

1. Dynamic IP logging accuracy is determined in a court of law, regardless of which ISP you are using. That is why we are innocent until proven guilty. The accuser would have to prove you actually downloaded or shared the content in question, the burden of proof is on the rights holder not the individual.
2. How can you be sure Bell Canada maintains correct logs, cell logs, land line call logs? You cannot, which is why again, the burden of proof lies on the rights holder. Simply connecting you to an IP they believe violated their copyright is not enough proof in any court.

If you are worried about getting sued, then don't download and share pirated media. If you have not pirated content, then you are not guilty of anything and you will win every time.

Innocent until proven guilty and its adjunct "beyond reasonable doubt" do not apply in civil cases.

Each party will make its claim and the judge will make a decision based on the preponderance of the evidence. In civil law, the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence. These are lower burdens of proof than beyond reasonable doubt

A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and convincing evidence is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true.

So, if Voltage can convince the judge 50.01% that you did it, you will be found against. Of course, the less clear and convincing the case by Voltage, in all probability the monetary finding of copyright damages will probably be reduced.

Remember this isn't guilty and innocent - that's for criminal cases. This is about damages and convincing a judge that you owe don't owe the claimant money.


Tx
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reply to MoreFaxes
said by MoreFaxes:

I have numerous Teksavvy services. I have been alarmed by the recent development of company directions.

I am worried.
1. How do we know if dyanmic IP log is accurate? What if there is an error in time clock resulting in false accusation?
2. How do we know if Teksavvy will even maintain the log properly?

For these reasons, I am thinking to terminate my Teksavvy internet services. They are worried about getting sued. So am I, so I am going somewhere else. I would not like to take a chance, just like Teksavvy does not like to take a chance in order to fight for privacy.

I am voting with my wallet!

Though i wish TSI would shove it up their loving behind and challenge the order and set it's own precedence that we're not going to be bullied, i have to say this...

I trust in Gabe, Marc and company to maintain accuracy with logging far more then i would Bell, Rogers, Telus and so on. End of the day right now information is being handed over. I'd trust a transparent company to hand over accurate information over other companies that make it a practice to defraud you and make your life hell on a daily basis


Tx
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reply to mattvmotas

If you are worried about getting sued, then don't download and share pirated media. If you have not pirated content, then you are not guilty of anything and you will win every time.

Wow what a silly comment. Point is and i have to emphasize this strongly. People DO NOT WANT to deal with the courts to prove their innocence. That costs money and a lot of time.

Me for example. I had no notice and i knew i wouldn't. That said, if i was to be accused that means i now have to take time off work, hire a lawyer to prove my innocence. If you don't see the logic in this then i don't know if you ever will.


Doctor9

join:2012-11-26
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said by Tx:

If you are worried about getting sued, then don't download and share pirated media. If you have not pirated content, then you are not guilty of anything and you will win every time.

Wow what a silly comment. Point is and i have to emphasize this strongly. People DO NOT WANT to deal with the courts to prove their innocence. That costs money and a lot of time.

Me for example. I had no notice and i knew i wouldn't. That said, if i was to be accused that means i now have to take time off work, hire a lawyer to prove my innocence. If you don't see the logic in this then i don't know if you ever will.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that;

1) People should be able to download and share whatever they want despite copyright law?

2) In addition, the hypothetical user in #1 should also be free from any lawsuits from the copyright owner who owns the content that never gave authorization whatsoever to the aforementioned user to have their content?

Wow, talk about a sense of entitlement.

The "victims" being sued knew the copyright owner didn't want them to have their content without authorization. For years the "victims" have been using a loophole in the law to watch and download that content anyways. Now they are upset that the copyright owners are also using underhanded legal loopholes to get damages?

I really don't know what to say.

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
No, he's not saying that. He's saying that some of the IPs targeted will be people who had nothing to do with illegal file sharing, and that they will now have to prove they didn't do anything illegal.


enzymes

join:2003-11-29
Brampton, ON
Reviews:
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reply to Doctor9
Hello Doctor,

I have been monitoring your internet activities and see that you have been downloading and uploading copyrighted material through the use of P2P/USENET. I have used Canipre to confirm that your IP belongs to Teksavvy. As such, I will be suing you for the amount of up to $10,000 in lost revenue from your actions after the court orders Teksavvy to hand over your name.

blah blah blah, court orders Teksavvy to hand over your information.
I take you to court along with the help of Canipre. And we provide evidence that the IP in fact belongs to you and that during Sept 1. to Oct 31 you used 10 GB in downloading/uploading. Thus, we can confirm 100% that it was you.

Now its up to you to prove that it wasn't you. But, I don't care, I have enough money to keep attacking you in court.

Now, you'll reply with it "I KNOW I DIDN'T DOWNLOAD ANYTHING ILLEGAL SO YOU CAN'T SUE ME". But my dear Doctor, I do not care. I have your IP, your name and the bandwidth you used. It is you. I made it all up too and you can't prove it. Thanks for the $10, 000.

Now, I'll target your fellow idiot ISP customers.

I can extort you for all I want. And there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.


Tx
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reply to Doctor9
said by Doctor9:

said by Tx:

If you are worried about getting sued, then don't download and share pirated media. If you have not pirated content, then you are not guilty of anything and you will win every time.

Wow what a silly comment. Point is and i have to emphasize this strongly. People DO NOT WANT to deal with the courts to prove their innocence. That costs money and a lot of time.

Me for example. I had no notice and i knew i wouldn't. That said, if i was to be accused that means i now have to take time off work, hire a lawyer to prove my innocence. If you don't see the logic in this then i don't know if you ever will.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that;

1) People should be able to download and share whatever they want despite copyright law?

2) In addition, the hypothetical user in #1 should also be free from any lawsuits from the copyright owner who owns the content that never gave authorization whatsoever to the aforementioned user to have their content?

Wow, talk about a sense of entitlement.

The "victims" being sued knew the copyright owner didn't want them to have their content without authorization. For years the "victims" have been using a loophole in the law to watch and download that content anyways. Now they are upset that the copyright owners are also using underhanded legal loopholes to get damages?

I really don't know what to say.

Might i suggest you re-read? What does copyright law have to do with being wrongfully accused? I love your method of empathizing on "victims" like everyone to you is a criminal should they be on the list of these 2300 users.

Before going on about your sense of entitlement theory, maybe you should stop with the assumptions and think of those who are truly innocent and wrongfully accused.

You strike me as one of those metaphor and air quoting type.

Let me point out the part "doctor" you seemed to have "missed".

"To prove their innocence" - Unless you are one of those who believe everyone of those 2300 users are guilty because you say so.


Tx
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reply to enzymes
said by enzymes:

Hello Doctor,

I have been monitoring your internet activities and see that you have been downloading and uploading copyrighted material through the use of P2P/USENET. I have used Canipre to confirm that your IP belongs to Teksavvy. As such, I will be suing you for the amount of up to $10,000 in lost revenue from your actions after the court orders Teksavvy to hand over your name.

blah blah blah, court orders Teksavvy to hand over your information.
I take you to court along with the help of Canipre. And we provide evidence that the IP in fact belongs to you and that during Sept 1. to Oct 31 you used 10 GB in downloading/uploading. Thus, we can confirm 100% that it was you.

Now its up to you to prove that it wasn't you. But, I don't care, I have enough money to keep attacking you in court.

Now, you'll reply with it "I KNOW I DIDN'T DOWNLOAD ANYTHING ILLEGAL SO YOU CAN'T SUE ME". But my dear Doctor, I do not care. I have your IP, your name and the bandwidth you used. It is you. I made it all up too and you can't prove it. Thanks for the $10, 000.

Now, I'll target your fellow idiot ISP customers.

I can extort you for all I want. And there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

You pretty much played it out perfectly and "Doctor" seemed to have missed this point i was getting at above. It's not the illegal activity i'm questioning, it's the methods, the mass suits. Now it's up to each person to defend themselves, that costs money and time.

Those like myself who are innocent if i were to be accused for any reason. Instead, Doctors thought process is, if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.


buddyyeah

@rogers.com
reply to The Mongoose
Correct me if iam wrong but these cases hold 5000 limit, i seriously doubt voltage would want to go to war over what could be a 100 dollars in damages. The only winners are the lawyers which is not what the people behind voltage are aiming for.


Doctor9

join:2012-11-26
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reply to Tx
You both are giving extreme examples and you both know it. The core issue here is being able to download copyrighted materials as a "right" with no repercussions whatsoever.

You also fail to mention that less than %1 of the cases here will end up being innocent people. There are so many people downloading copyrighted torrents that there is no need to fake IP's and you both must be well aware of that.

I will agree with both of you, there is something "not right" here and I don't agree at all with the methods this company is trying to get money out of people. But I disagree with the methods for honest reasons and I'm not trying to use it as a scapegoat to abandon prosecution of people with pirated material entirely.

How could they have gotten these IP's? Oh yeah;

1) They prowl the linux torrents and wait for people to enter the swarm and record their IP address.

2) They set up phishing websites and record all the ip's going to their website.

Let's see how long their lawyers will keep their license employing methods like this.

Give me a break.


Tx
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said by Doctor9:

You both are giving extreme examples and you both know it. The core issue here is being able to download copyrighted materials as a "right" with no repercussions whatsoever.

You also fail to mention that less than %1 of the cases here will end up being innocent people. There are so many people downloading copyrighted torrents that there is no need to fake IP's and you both must be well aware of that.

I will agree with both of you, there is something "not right" here and I don't agree at all with the methods this company is trying to get money out of people. But I disagree with the methods for honest reasons and I'm not trying to use it as a scapegoat to abandon prosecution of people with pirated material entirely.

How could they have gotten these IP's? Oh yeah;

1) They prowl the linux torrents and wait for people to enter the swarm and record their IP address.

2) They set up phishing websites and record all the ip's going to their website.

Let's see how long their lawyers will keep their license employing methods like this.

Give me a break.

Less then 1%? Do you know something everyone else doesn't? These guys are extortionists. Read the news buddy, i think you're out of touch with reality. IP != a person. That's the sole problem. End of story.

If you or anyone you know so much as downloaded a song or an app you thought was free you're now a pirate, you can plead ignorance but fact is, there are so many innocent people who just do not know better. Our examples are not extreme examples, go read some stories on torrentfreak.com.

Their pay up or else scheme is a is a scam. It's extortion because those who may actually be innocent as an IP != a person will pay up to avoid court. Lastly the things the industry doesn't brag about publicly is these "pirates" drive up sales, the pirates themselves statistically have shown to be the ones who buy more often then not.

Me saying that is not making or saying it's right, but the copyright and the industry refuses to adapt to the future of what is now.

I speak from experience, my elderly father was wrongfully accused 2 years ago, and thought fighting it (in the states) was his best bet since he as innocent. I know 100% he was, but he lost.

These cases the burden of proof should be on Voltage, but it's not, it's on the end user. I'm saying THAT is the part that is very unfair to all the end users. Lastly, copyright in north american is treated far more harshly then murder. If you cannot see what's twisted with this then i honestly don't know what to say.

I argue with reason, because i stood beside someone who went through this whole ordeal and has since filed bankruptcy due to it.

It's not about faking an IP, it's that an IP is not a person. It does not identify without a reasonable doubt a person, a name


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Tx
said by Tx:

.......if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.

Actually, it's the Canadian way. There is no justice in Canada. A trial is a liar's convention. Those with the most convincing tale win. Justice is cash driven. And the high priced lawyers involved are the ultimate winners in the end.

Canadian justice isn't based on truth or evidence. It's based on expert opinion presenting the evidence. Money talks. Bullshit walks. Those with the deepest pockets and most influencial witness wins.

Once your name appears on the docket you're GUILTY AS CHARGED. It's the Canadian (and dare I say the North American) way of doing things.

Nobody cares if the guilty party is convicted. As long as somebody is convicted. Canadians want CONVICTIONS for justice to APPEAR to be done.

So if your names on the list, Bend over and kiss your ass and cash goodbye. It's going to be a looong appeal filled bumpy ride before you get your next good nite's sleep.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to Tx
Doctor, these suits aren't about DOWNLOADING .. they are about making available for distribution ... i.e. you leave your seeds available for others. If you simply leach, at this time you will not be gone after.


Tx
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reply to elitefx
said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

.......if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.

Actually, it's the Canadian way. There is no justice in Canada. A trial is a liar's convention. Those with the most convincing tale win. Justice is cash driven. And the high priced lawyers involved are the ultimate winners in the end.

Canadian justice isn't based on truth or evidence. It's based on expert opinion presenting the evidence. Money talks. Bullshit walks. Those with the deepest pockets and most influencial witness wins.

Once your name appears on the docket you're GUILTY AS CHARGED. It's the Canadian (and dare I say the North American) way of doing things.

Nobody cares if the guilty party is convicted. As long as somebody is convicted. Canadians want CONVICTIONS for justice to APPEAR to be done.

So if your names on the list, Bend over and kiss your ass and cash goodbye. It's going to be a looong appeal filled bumpy ride before you get your next good nite's sleep.

+1 and well said


Doctor9

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reply to Tx
I know they are extortionists using a technicality in the law to get money from people. I did read the news. I probably know almost (I admit you probably know more) as much as you.

I also did say I don't like these methods. I would much rather have the complainants tell the police and the police do the investigation and prosecute them in court. Perhaps a 3 strikes rule or something along those lines so "people downloading an app and didn't know" won't get into trouble.

IP = A person is the issue? Guess a bunch of people living in a marijuana growing house are safe then if everyone just pleads ignorance.

I know pirates often spend more money than the average person on music on software. I am not as dim as you may think. The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.


Tx
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said by Doctor9:

I know they are extortionists using a technicality in the law to get money from people. I did read the news. I probably know almost (I admit you probably know more) as much as you.

I also did say I don't like these methods. I would much rather have the complainants tell the police and the police do the investigation and prosecute them in court. Perhaps a 3 strikes rule or something along those lines so "people downloading an app and didn't know" won't get into trouble.

IP = A person is the issue? Guess a bunch of people living in a marijuana growing house are safe then if everyone just pleads ignorance.

I know pirates often spend more money than the average person on music on software. I am not as dim as you may think. The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.

I'm going to end this argument with me saying one thing...

If you honestly believe comparing people inside a home where a grow op is to comparing identifying an individual from an IP then you really need to learn the basics of the internet.

My neighbour argued with me how he's safe since his router is secure. I in front of him using backtrack linux and proceeded to download an illegal torrent in his face.

He went quiet....

Not as hard as you think. Right now taking a look i have access to 4 unsecured routers near me. Sure they should know to secure them but to expect non technical people to know this is absurd. Sure it's ignorance on both parts, but at the end of the day that doesn't make someone a criminal


sbrook
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reply to Doctor9
You do have that right ... but extorting money out of them to make up for a faulty sales model isn't how to do it.


Doctor9

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reply to Tx
My reply to sbrook: Thank you for that newspeak. It would be clever if you didn't ignore that I said repeatedly I don't agree with the complainant's methods at all.

My reply to Tx:

Yes that is why a secured router and a detailed ISP record (which at the end of the day DOES help you) would absolve the individual in the situation you provided. As there is a record of someone accessing your connection as a gateway to download the software. Secondly it is rather silly to even utilize this method with the tons of VPN's out there free or otherwise that you could chain together which would be far more effective at hiding your identity than the example you provided.

I frankly don't have sympathy for either of the parties in this situation. Both criminals at different ends of the legal spectrum.


sbrook
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reply to MoreFaxes
Doctor you're taking it out of context.

You said ...

The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.

To which I replied ... you do have that right ... but extorting ...

And that's not a personal comment against you. It's simply a comment to anyone attempting to enforce IP rights ... extortion isn't the way to make up for a faulty sales model. Protect your rights as you wish. Sony did it with copyright protection that involved installing rootkits ... WRONG. Microsoft have been trying to do it with digital copy protection. Now it seems to have vanished.

Just because a creator or more importantly his distributor isn't making money doesn't give him the right to extort money out of people for lost sales. That people are copying should tell them that the product they're protecting isn't worth what they're charging.


Doctor9

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I believe you were the one who took it out of context. That is why I separated my reply to you and Tx.

Yes. That argument I made was an argument as a whole about intellectual property rights and was in direct reply to Tx's argument. His argument was something along the lines of joining the future and realizing pirates are one of the biggest spenders for software and music.

Regardless, what you said about their motives is blatantly obvious to me and to most people, but would be considered speculative in a court room. The facts are the vast majority of these people took property that did not belong to them. The IP holders want damages as a result. This is factual. What you said is not factual as motives are entirely speculative.

Regardless, as I said in my opinion these are just two different types of criminals on different ends of the legal spectrum and entirely deserve each other. (For the most part)


enzymes

join:2003-11-29
Brampton, ON
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"The facts are the vast majority of these people took property that did not belong to them. The IP holders want damages as a result. This is factual."

Oh, I see. You are from the future? Have all 2300 people been convicted of copyright infringement in your time line already? How is 2013 like? Lots of snow?

»www.eff.org/issues/copyright-trolls

It's time you educate yourself on the matter. Read all nine pages and see how guilty they all are according to you. Same thing is going to happen to Teksavvy for next couple of years. Voltage is just the first big one to file a mass lawsuit.


Doctor9

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I was careful to use "vast majority" just for people like you. Instead of "all" or "almost all" because people such as yourself love to jump up and say "You said all! How about THIS person?"

So the majority are innocent? Yeah that's a heck of a lot easier to make up people than to just upload a torrent and wait for people to download from you and try to extort money from them that way. It's hard to upload a movie on The Pirate Bay and wait for people. Let's use the easier and criminal way instead and just invent the users who tried to download from you. Also let's go to court to get their names released, these innocent people are a heck of a lot more likely to pay the extortion money then legitimate people who downloaded our IPR. How would we get the fake IP's of these "innocent" people? Umm I don't know. Let's look at other illegal torrents and get the IP's of these "wholly innocent people". Are you for real? Where else would they get these IP's from? I'm sure it's all from the linux torrents, and not from innocent people pirating "other" software and movies.

Secondly 9 pages out of the confirmed millions in the US alone sued for downloading? Really convincing to me. I never said all were guilty.

Here's another innocent guy from Teksavvy just looking to protect his privacy. »USENET - trackable?