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sbrook
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join:2001-12-14
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reply to Tx

Re: I am not affected but I am worried / thinking to abandon TSI

Doctor, these suits aren't about DOWNLOADING .. they are about making available for distribution ... i.e. you leave your seeds available for others. If you simply leach, at this time you will not be gone after.



Tx
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reply to elitefx

said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

.......if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.

Actually, it's the Canadian way. There is no justice in Canada. A trial is a liar's convention. Those with the most convincing tale win. Justice is cash driven. And the high priced lawyers involved are the ultimate winners in the end.

Canadian justice isn't based on truth or evidence. It's based on expert opinion presenting the evidence. Money talks. Bullshit walks. Those with the deepest pockets and most influencial witness wins.

Once your name appears on the docket you're GUILTY AS CHARGED. It's the Canadian (and dare I say the North American) way of doing things.

Nobody cares if the guilty party is convicted. As long as somebody is convicted. Canadians want CONVICTIONS for justice to APPEAR to be done.

So if your names on the list, Bend over and kiss your ass and cash goodbye. It's going to be a looong appeal filled bumpy ride before you get your next good nite's sleep.

+1 and well said


Doctor

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reply to Tx

I know they are extortionists using a technicality in the law to get money from people. I did read the news. I probably know almost (I admit you probably know more) as much as you.

I also did say I don't like these methods. I would much rather have the complainants tell the police and the police do the investigation and prosecute them in court. Perhaps a 3 strikes rule or something along those lines so "people downloading an app and didn't know" won't get into trouble.

IP = A person is the issue? Guess a bunch of people living in a marijuana growing house are safe then if everyone just pleads ignorance.

I know pirates often spend more money than the average person on music on software. I am not as dim as you may think. The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.



Tx
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said by Doctor:

I know they are extortionists using a technicality in the law to get money from people. I did read the news. I probably know almost (I admit you probably know more) as much as you.

I also did say I don't like these methods. I would much rather have the complainants tell the police and the police do the investigation and prosecute them in court. Perhaps a 3 strikes rule or something along those lines so "people downloading an app and didn't know" won't get into trouble.

IP = A person is the issue? Guess a bunch of people living in a marijuana growing house are safe then if everyone just pleads ignorance.

I know pirates often spend more money than the average person on music on software. I am not as dim as you may think. The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.

I'm going to end this argument with me saying one thing...

If you honestly believe comparing people inside a home where a grow op is to comparing identifying an individual from an IP then you really need to learn the basics of the internet.

My neighbour argued with me how he's safe since his router is secure. I in front of him using backtrack linux and proceeded to download an illegal torrent in his face.

He went quiet....

Not as hard as you think. Right now taking a look i have access to 4 unsecured routers near me. Sure they should know to secure them but to expect non technical people to know this is absurd. Sure it's ignorance on both parts, but at the end of the day that doesn't make someone a criminal


sbrook
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join:2001-12-14
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kudos:13
reply to Doctor

You do have that right ... but extorting money out of them to make up for a faulty sales model isn't how to do it.



Doctor

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reply to Tx

My reply to sbrook: Thank you for that newspeak. It would be clever if you didn't ignore that I said repeatedly I don't agree with the complainant's methods at all.

My reply to Tx:

Yes that is why a secured router and a detailed ISP record (which at the end of the day DOES help you) would absolve the individual in the situation you provided. As there is a record of someone accessing your connection as a gateway to download the software. Secondly it is rather silly to even utilize this method with the tons of VPN's out there free or otherwise that you could chain together which would be far more effective at hiding your identity than the example you provided.

I frankly don't have sympathy for either of the parties in this situation. Both criminals at different ends of the legal spectrum.



sbrook
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reply to MoreFaxes

Doctor you're taking it out of context.

You said ...

The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.

To which I replied ... you do have that right ... but extorting ...

And that's not a personal comment against you. It's simply a comment to anyone attempting to enforce IP rights ... extortion isn't the way to make up for a faulty sales model. Protect your rights as you wish. Sony did it with copyright protection that involved installing rootkits ... WRONG. Microsoft have been trying to do it with digital copy protection. Now it seems to have vanished.

Just because a creator or more importantly his distributor isn't making money doesn't give him the right to extort money out of people for lost sales. That people are copying should tell them that the product they're protecting isn't worth what they're charging.



Doctor

join:2012-11-26
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I believe you were the one who took it out of context. That is why I separated my reply to you and Tx.

Yes. That argument I made was an argument as a whole about intellectual property rights and was in direct reply to Tx's argument. His argument was something along the lines of joining the future and realizing pirates are one of the biggest spenders for software and music.

Regardless, what you said about their motives is blatantly obvious to me and to most people, but would be considered speculative in a court room. The facts are the vast majority of these people took property that did not belong to them. The IP holders want damages as a result. This is factual. What you said is not factual as motives are entirely speculative.

Regardless, as I said in my opinion these are just two different types of criminals on different ends of the legal spectrum and entirely deserve each other. (For the most part)



enzymes

join:2003-11-29
Brampton, ON
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"The facts are the vast majority of these people took property that did not belong to them. The IP holders want damages as a result. This is factual."

Oh, I see. You are from the future? Have all 2300 people been convicted of copyright infringement in your time line already? How is 2013 like? Lots of snow?

»www.eff.org/issues/copyright-trolls

It's time you educate yourself on the matter. Read all nine pages and see how guilty they all are according to you. Same thing is going to happen to Teksavvy for next couple of years. Voltage is just the first big one to file a mass lawsuit.



Doctor

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I was careful to use "vast majority" just for people like you. Instead of "all" or "almost all" because people such as yourself love to jump up and say "You said all! How about THIS person?"

So the majority are innocent? Yeah that's a heck of a lot easier to make up people than to just upload a torrent and wait for people to download from you and try to extort money from them that way. It's hard to upload a movie on The Pirate Bay and wait for people. Let's use the easier and criminal way instead and just invent the users who tried to download from you. Also let's go to court to get their names released, these innocent people are a heck of a lot more likely to pay the extortion money then legitimate people who downloaded our IPR. How would we get the fake IP's of these "innocent" people? Umm I don't know. Let's look at other illegal torrents and get the IP's of these "wholly innocent people". Are you for real? Where else would they get these IP's from? I'm sure it's all from the linux torrents, and not from innocent people pirating "other" software and movies.

Secondly 9 pages out of the confirmed millions in the US alone sued for downloading? Really convincing to me. I never said all were guilty.

Here's another innocent guy from Teksavvy just looking to protect his privacy. »USENET - trackable?



enzymes

join:2003-11-29
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reply to MoreFaxes

»laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Cons···-15.html

Section 11 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;

Also, an IP is not a person. »torrentfreak.com/judge-an-ip-add···-120503/

Here is a user on BBR doing exactly what Voltage&Conspire is doing to extort...

»Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

Yep, seems a lot easier to me.



Tx
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said by enzymes:

»laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Cons···-15.html

Section 11 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;

Also, an IP is not a person. »torrentfreak.com/judge-an-ip-add···-120503/

Here is a user on BBR doing exactly what Voltage&Conspire is doing to extort...

»Re: Why we are not opposing motion on Monday.

Yep, seems a lot easier to me.

Something i've been saying is easily possible all along but no one listens. Good link though i never seen his post.


Doctor

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reply to enzymes

Are you quite serious in that response? Of course an IP is not a person in a situation like that. When you connect to a PUBLICLY available proxy server that is set up to be such. Not exactly the same as using your ISP (non proxy) IP address assigned to you and being caught that way.

Secondly you are just arguing on semantics. The likelihood is that more than not are guilty of this just by the element of chance.

You quoted that a person is innocent until proven guilty, of course. Are we in kindergarten? I never accused an individual. Unless of course you are arguing that the majority in this case had their computer used as a proxy unknowingly? Yes, that is the most logical assumption.



enzymes

join:2003-11-29
Brampton, ON

You are a walking contradiction, buddy. I'll leave you to it then.



Tx
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reply to Doctor

said by Doctor:

Are you quite serious in that response? Of course an IP is not a person in a situation like that. When you connect to a PUBLICLY available proxy server that is set up to be such. Not exactly the same as using your ISP (non proxy) IP address assigned to you and being caught that way.

Secondly you are just arguing on semantics. The likelihood is that more than not are guilty of this just by the element of chance.

You quoted that a person is innocent until proven guilty, of course. Are we in kindergarten? I never accused an individual. Unless of course you are arguing that the majority in this case had their computer used as a proxy unknowingly? Yes, that is the most logical assumption.

I honestly cannot speak for how technologically knowledgable you are, but if you know a thing or two, then i highly recommend doing some reading on IP spoofing. Vast majority who know to hide behind a VPN can learn to spoof. It's not downloading off of their account, just pretending to thus spoofing.

It doesn't matter if this is the minority or the majority, point is that possibility stands, as such leaves the door open to lawsuit for even the most straighten arrow law abiding man, woman or child.

Though "hm" doesn't go in to huge detail, read his post.


Doctor

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This will be my last reply here. Thank you for replying thoughtfully and not insulting my intelligence. This I can agree with. That is why I said from the beginning I don't agree with the method employed by this company. I also think this sets a dangerous precedence in regards to the security of someone's privacy. My only argument here was that many people seemed to imply that the vast majority here were likely innocent, which I still deny due to practical and underlying motivational reasons. I don't want to hijack this thread, I'll leave it at that. Thank you.


funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to UK_Dave

said by UK_Dave:

Where are you going to go to, maybe an incumbent desperately trying to keep threats away from its legacy TV media business model....

same place everyone else is
NO WHERE
and by htat menaing no internet
seems to me the interent now is too risky to use and unless you pander to apple/hollywood your no friend of it.
Expand your moderator at work

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to sbrook

Re: I am not affected but I am worried / thinking to abandon TSI

said by sbrook:

said by mattvmotas:

1. Dynamic IP logging accuracy is determined in a court of law, regardless of which ISP you are using. That is why we are innocent until proven guilty. The accuser would have to prove you actually downloaded or shared the content in question, the burden of proof is on the rights holder not the individual.
2. How can you be sure Bell Canada maintains correct logs, cell logs, land line call logs? You cannot, which is why again, the burden of proof lies on the rights holder. Simply connecting you to an IP they believe violated their copyright is not enough proof in any court.

If you are worried about getting sued, then don't download and share pirated media. If you have not pirated content, then you are not guilty of anything and you will win every time.

Innocent until proven guilty and its adjunct "beyond reasonable doubt" do not apply in civil cases.

Each party will make its claim and the judge will make a decision based on the preponderance of the evidence. In civil law, the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence. These are lower burdens of proof than beyond reasonable doubt

A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and convincing evidence is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true.

So, if Voltage can convince the judge 50.01% that you did it, you will be found against. Of course, the less clear and convincing the case by Voltage, in all probability the monetary finding of copyright damages will probably be reduced.

Remember this isn't guilty and innocent - that's for criminal cases. This is about damages and convincing a judge that you owe don't owe the claimant money.

no the judge has to have "no reasonable doubts"
if he/she does then case will be dismissed

i myself once got into a court and showed proof that the police were lying about a simple matter of how many police even showed up to a residence ( for a supposed weapons offence they claimed one officer showed up - false and i had a whole neighborhood as proof and in fact i wasnt even home at time etc.....[a whole bar a people seeing you])the judge said and i'll quote "i don't know whom to believe. case dismissed")

my lawyer was smiling the whole trial...and the crown had gone into crazy person mode after i ripped her a good one...in fact i even said it....if you wont collect DNA evidence on a knife you alledge someone used then you cant use it as evidence. "we dont do DNA evidence on cases like this" ....that statement had the whole court room pack in after lunch .....haha...

thank you hells angels for use of your lawyer!


sbrook
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reply to MoreFaxes

Funny, you don't get it.

What you were talking about (and the Charter) is CRIMINAL OR PENAL actions. Those are actions where governments charge you with an offence against the laws of the land. As soon as you said "supposed weapons offence", that means you are talking a "criminal action".

Copyright is a CIVIL matter ... and laws of copyright form a justification for a civil action against someone for damages. No "police" involvement. The laws of copyright simply provide that if you, for example, copy my intellectual property without permission, then I have the right to take you to court to seek damages and if the work is a published medium, the publisher has the right to prosecute you for his losses.

Because it's a civil matter, proof beyond reasonable doubt does not apply. What applies is "preponderance of evidence". If the intellectual property owner can demonstrate that you are likely to have copied the material, then he will find for the intellectual property owner. He only has to believe the owner slightly more than you.

What that means is that if he finds you have copied material beyond reasonable doubt, the IP owner probably gets full damages (subject to limits). If he finds that you're just 51% likely to have done it, the judge will still find for the IP owner and scale back the damages.

You don't come away with a criminal record if you lose, you just have to pay up.



d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
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reply to MoreFaxes

Where to even begin....TSI, while failing to take a more aggresive approach on this as I had hoped, has at least been transparent about this whole thing (and special kudo's to Marc for that because I realize it was a risky decision).

Either way, on this issue as well, I'd rather be a TSI customer than to any other service as Rogers/Bell/etc are even worse in the sense that they'd had your information over without thinking twice....

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Expand your moderator at work

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to elitefx

Re: I am not affected but I am worried / thinking to abandon TSI

said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

.......if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.

Actually, it's the Canadian way. There is no justice in Canada. A trial is a liar's convention. Those with the most convincing tale win. Justice is cash driven. And the high priced lawyers involved are the ultimate winners in the end.

Canadian justice isn't based on truth or evidence. It's based on expert opinion presenting the evidence. Money talks. Bullshit walks. Those with the deepest pockets and most influencial witness wins.

Once your name appears on the docket you're GUILTY AS CHARGED. It's the Canadian (and dare I say the North American) way of doing things.

Nobody cares if the guilty party is convicted. As long as somebody is convicted. Canadians want CONVICTIONS for justice to APPEAR to be done.

So if your names on the list, Bend over and kiss your ass and cash goodbye. It's going to be a looong appeal filled bumpy ride before you get your next good nite's sleep.

except that when one shows too many "possibilities of lies"
a judge's preponderance of reasonable doubt comes into play and if there is no direct evidence of profit taking in this as is the case in my opinion there will be no reason to hand over said data unless voltage can show all these ips are making money off there stuff....

how can anyone show that ? oh [enter ip addy here] was seen selling dvdrs of a movie at the corner ? ya ok right...surrrre...its impossible via ip only to say they were making money and it shows voltage has no clue about the law...and im not saying what they should have done to get at the id info but the screwed up and the "recoil" movie that marc states about the company used the old set of laws and as this was filed after the new law came into affect it won't or shouldn't fly.

having a persons name and address doesn't equate to profit making any more then an ip address could show you....talk to a lawyer that knows IP LAW....won't be that many as there just hasn't been a market , once this starts tons a jerks will get into it and making money off both sides while society is being harmed....

My question is how much do the millions have to take before we surround parliament and demand change and im not talking about obama change in his pocket...

zaco

join:2010-09-27
reply to Anon

lol I was thinking the same or either that person didn't read anything about the lawsuit nor he or she knows how fast Rogers/Bell would give their information in return of $$, Teksavvy have tried their best (IMO) and hopefully the court will turn VoltageTrolls down..



AkFubar
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said by zaco:

lol I was thinking the same or either that person didn't read anything about the lawsuit nor he or she knows how fast Rogers/Bell would give their information in return of $$, Teksavvy have tried their best (IMO) and hopefully the court will turn VoltageTrolls down..

+1
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MoreFaxes

join:2002-09-27
United
reply to Anon

First, I am the OP. I have been a member of DSLR since about 10 years ago. I did not just join last week to post.

Second, I have later found out that downloaders / P2Per / hackers love Teksavvy because of its generous downloading quota and policy. I did not know this when I joined. That is fine as long as it does not affect me or slow me down. It is none of my business. So I did not really care, until this event.

In this case, there may be an IP spoof or wrong logging, so my account may get somehow related by error. It's the same as in the wrong place at the wrong time. If the group you are with tends to be raunchy, you may be affected even though you are totally innocent.

I think Rogers have quota limit and traffic shaping, those practices will help to reduce illegal p2p. So the chance of getting mistaken identity is less.

I think Teksavvy is a great ISP. I appreciate their openness. It's just that their customer profile seems to be skewed because of "unlimited quota". This will drive non-p2p users, like myself, away from the group.



buddyyeah

@rogers.com

TTC

Makes no difference the isp.spoofer and hackers are in every network, it is going on all the time and it is not hard to figure out how to do it.


Sukunai
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reply to MoreFaxes

Well the fact is you still can't get blood from a stone.

I was genuinely surprised when they killed Newzbin who are just an indexer. No damned different than giving directions to the library where you can get books for free. I means too bad if those directions cost you money, life sucks.

Then all the crap started. And recently NewsMatrix gets shit canned, and again, they are guilty of telling you where the library is, and I couldn't care less who has what to say on the laws of whatever country. Until they make reading books in a library illegal, telling a person online where you can find someone giving something away for free is simply not a criminal act.

Noooooooooow on the other hand. Giganews is a news host, so is Astraweb. These people DO facilitate giving away someone else's goods. Let me know when these people have been arrested, because until then, frankly I don't give a damn.

I'm not leaving Teksavvy just because they might get told to let some fucked in the head governmental bodies or court entities see some logs.
And like I said at the beginning of this post, I am broke. If they can actually find some money I dont have, they can have it eh. I am a ward of the state. If the court plans to put the squeeze on me, just so long as they understand they are putting the squeeze on the Province of Ontario. I haven't made a cent since 1994. I have 5 bucks in the back right now.

And I don't own a car a home or any form of investments/monies/funds. I have some worn clothing, some furniture I made out of reclaimed wood and a collection of old paperbacks eh. If they walked in here and demanded all I own, they wouldn't have enough profits to hire the auctioneer.

I think the entertainment industry needs to realize it is both full of shit, and of no relevance to the world of 2012.
I expect to see The Hobbit at the local theatre. I understand they will be doing 2 other 1/3s in two upcoming years. That's 3 shows in 3 years I might care about. The other serveral hundreds of films that will no doubt get made, I couldn't care less if they were free.

Expand your moderator at work


Tx
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reply to MoreFaxes

Re: I am not affected but I am worried / thinking to abandon TSI

said by MoreFaxes:

First, I am the OP. I have been a member of DSLR since about 10 years ago. I did not just join last week to post.

+1000

This was my first though :/ You've been a member LONGER then Akfubar yet he yields you a troll because you don't "love" teksavvy?

It left me scratching my head as to what people really consider a troll these days. You've been a member for more then a decade, and it seems that's not long enough