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Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
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reply to enzymes

Re: I am not affected but I am worried / thinking to abandon TSI

said by enzymes:

Hello Doctor,

I have been monitoring your internet activities and see that you have been downloading and uploading copyrighted material through the use of P2P/USENET. I have used Canipre to confirm that your IP belongs to Teksavvy. As such, I will be suing you for the amount of up to $10,000 in lost revenue from your actions after the court orders Teksavvy to hand over your name.

blah blah blah, court orders Teksavvy to hand over your information.
I take you to court along with the help of Canipre. And we provide evidence that the IP in fact belongs to you and that during Sept 1. to Oct 31 you used 10 GB in downloading/uploading. Thus, we can confirm 100% that it was you.

Now its up to you to prove that it wasn't you. But, I don't care, I have enough money to keep attacking you in court.

Now, you'll reply with it "I KNOW I DIDN'T DOWNLOAD ANYTHING ILLEGAL SO YOU CAN'T SUE ME". But my dear Doctor, I do not care. I have your IP, your name and the bandwidth you used. It is you. I made it all up too and you can't prove it. Thanks for the $10, 000.

Now, I'll target your fellow idiot ISP customers.

I can extort you for all I want. And there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

You pretty much played it out perfectly and "Doctor" seemed to have missed this point i was getting at above. It's not the illegal activity i'm questioning, it's the methods, the mass suits. Now it's up to each person to defend themselves, that costs money and time.

Those like myself who are innocent if i were to be accused for any reason. Instead, Doctors thought process is, if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.


Doctor9

join:2012-11-26
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You both are giving extreme examples and you both know it. The core issue here is being able to download copyrighted materials as a "right" with no repercussions whatsoever.

You also fail to mention that less than %1 of the cases here will end up being innocent people. There are so many people downloading copyrighted torrents that there is no need to fake IP's and you both must be well aware of that.

I will agree with both of you, there is something "not right" here and I don't agree at all with the methods this company is trying to get money out of people. But I disagree with the methods for honest reasons and I'm not trying to use it as a scapegoat to abandon prosecution of people with pirated material entirely.

How could they have gotten these IP's? Oh yeah;

1) They prowl the linux torrents and wait for people to enter the swarm and record their IP address.

2) They set up phishing websites and record all the ip's going to their website.

Let's see how long their lawyers will keep their license employing methods like this.

Give me a break.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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said by Doctor9:

You both are giving extreme examples and you both know it. The core issue here is being able to download copyrighted materials as a "right" with no repercussions whatsoever.

You also fail to mention that less than %1 of the cases here will end up being innocent people. There are so many people downloading copyrighted torrents that there is no need to fake IP's and you both must be well aware of that.

I will agree with both of you, there is something "not right" here and I don't agree at all with the methods this company is trying to get money out of people. But I disagree with the methods for honest reasons and I'm not trying to use it as a scapegoat to abandon prosecution of people with pirated material entirely.

How could they have gotten these IP's? Oh yeah;

1) They prowl the linux torrents and wait for people to enter the swarm and record their IP address.

2) They set up phishing websites and record all the ip's going to their website.

Let's see how long their lawyers will keep their license employing methods like this.

Give me a break.

Less then 1%? Do you know something everyone else doesn't? These guys are extortionists. Read the news buddy, i think you're out of touch with reality. IP != a person. That's the sole problem. End of story.

If you or anyone you know so much as downloaded a song or an app you thought was free you're now a pirate, you can plead ignorance but fact is, there are so many innocent people who just do not know better. Our examples are not extreme examples, go read some stories on torrentfreak.com.

Their pay up or else scheme is a is a scam. It's extortion because those who may actually be innocent as an IP != a person will pay up to avoid court. Lastly the things the industry doesn't brag about publicly is these "pirates" drive up sales, the pirates themselves statistically have shown to be the ones who buy more often then not.

Me saying that is not making or saying it's right, but the copyright and the industry refuses to adapt to the future of what is now.

I speak from experience, my elderly father was wrongfully accused 2 years ago, and thought fighting it (in the states) was his best bet since he as innocent. I know 100% he was, but he lost.

These cases the burden of proof should be on Voltage, but it's not, it's on the end user. I'm saying THAT is the part that is very unfair to all the end users. Lastly, copyright in north american is treated far more harshly then murder. If you cannot see what's twisted with this then i honestly don't know what to say.

I argue with reason, because i stood beside someone who went through this whole ordeal and has since filed bankruptcy due to it.

It's not about faking an IP, it's that an IP is not a person. It does not identify without a reasonable doubt a person, a name


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Tx
said by Tx:

.......if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.

Actually, it's the Canadian way. There is no justice in Canada. A trial is a liar's convention. Those with the most convincing tale win. Justice is cash driven. And the high priced lawyers involved are the ultimate winners in the end.

Canadian justice isn't based on truth or evidence. It's based on expert opinion presenting the evidence. Money talks. Bullshit walks. Those with the deepest pockets and most influencial witness wins.

Once your name appears on the docket you're GUILTY AS CHARGED. It's the Canadian (and dare I say the North American) way of doing things.

Nobody cares if the guilty party is convicted. As long as somebody is convicted. Canadians want CONVICTIONS for justice to APPEAR to be done.

So if your names on the list, Bend over and kiss your ass and cash goodbye. It's going to be a looong appeal filled bumpy ride before you get your next good nite's sleep.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to Tx
Doctor, these suits aren't about DOWNLOADING .. they are about making available for distribution ... i.e. you leave your seeds available for others. If you simply leach, at this time you will not be gone after.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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reply to elitefx
said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

.......if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.

Actually, it's the Canadian way. There is no justice in Canada. A trial is a liar's convention. Those with the most convincing tale win. Justice is cash driven. And the high priced lawyers involved are the ultimate winners in the end.

Canadian justice isn't based on truth or evidence. It's based on expert opinion presenting the evidence. Money talks. Bullshit walks. Those with the deepest pockets and most influencial witness wins.

Once your name appears on the docket you're GUILTY AS CHARGED. It's the Canadian (and dare I say the North American) way of doing things.

Nobody cares if the guilty party is convicted. As long as somebody is convicted. Canadians want CONVICTIONS for justice to APPEAR to be done.

So if your names on the list, Bend over and kiss your ass and cash goodbye. It's going to be a looong appeal filled bumpy ride before you get your next good nite's sleep.

+1 and well said


Doctor9

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reply to Tx
I know they are extortionists using a technicality in the law to get money from people. I did read the news. I probably know almost (I admit you probably know more) as much as you.

I also did say I don't like these methods. I would much rather have the complainants tell the police and the police do the investigation and prosecute them in court. Perhaps a 3 strikes rule or something along those lines so "people downloading an app and didn't know" won't get into trouble.

IP = A person is the issue? Guess a bunch of people living in a marijuana growing house are safe then if everyone just pleads ignorance.

I know pirates often spend more money than the average person on music on software. I am not as dim as you may think. The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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said by Doctor9:

I know they are extortionists using a technicality in the law to get money from people. I did read the news. I probably know almost (I admit you probably know more) as much as you.

I also did say I don't like these methods. I would much rather have the complainants tell the police and the police do the investigation and prosecute them in court. Perhaps a 3 strikes rule or something along those lines so "people downloading an app and didn't know" won't get into trouble.

IP = A person is the issue? Guess a bunch of people living in a marijuana growing house are safe then if everyone just pleads ignorance.

I know pirates often spend more money than the average person on music on software. I am not as dim as you may think. The point is if I create something, regardless of how much profit I can make within a certain segment of the online community, is that what I created belongs to me and I have the right to control who has access to it within reason.

I'm going to end this argument with me saying one thing...

If you honestly believe comparing people inside a home where a grow op is to comparing identifying an individual from an IP then you really need to learn the basics of the internet.

My neighbour argued with me how he's safe since his router is secure. I in front of him using backtrack linux and proceeded to download an illegal torrent in his face.

He went quiet....

Not as hard as you think. Right now taking a look i have access to 4 unsecured routers near me. Sure they should know to secure them but to expect non technical people to know this is absurd. Sure it's ignorance on both parts, but at the end of the day that doesn't make someone a criminal


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to Doctor9
You do have that right ... but extorting money out of them to make up for a faulty sales model isn't how to do it.


Doctor9

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reply to Tx
My reply to sbrook: Thank you for that newspeak. It would be clever if you didn't ignore that I said repeatedly I don't agree with the complainant's methods at all.

My reply to Tx:

Yes that is why a secured router and a detailed ISP record (which at the end of the day DOES help you) would absolve the individual in the situation you provided. As there is a record of someone accessing your connection as a gateway to download the software. Secondly it is rather silly to even utilize this method with the tons of VPN's out there free or otherwise that you could chain together which would be far more effective at hiding your identity than the example you provided.

I frankly don't have sympathy for either of the parties in this situation. Both criminals at different ends of the legal spectrum.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to elitefx
said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

.......if you're accused you're a pirate right out of the gate.

Actually, it's the Canadian way. There is no justice in Canada. A trial is a liar's convention. Those with the most convincing tale win. Justice is cash driven. And the high priced lawyers involved are the ultimate winners in the end.

Canadian justice isn't based on truth or evidence. It's based on expert opinion presenting the evidence. Money talks. Bullshit walks. Those with the deepest pockets and most influencial witness wins.

Once your name appears on the docket you're GUILTY AS CHARGED. It's the Canadian (and dare I say the North American) way of doing things.

Nobody cares if the guilty party is convicted. As long as somebody is convicted. Canadians want CONVICTIONS for justice to APPEAR to be done.

So if your names on the list, Bend over and kiss your ass and cash goodbye. It's going to be a looong appeal filled bumpy ride before you get your next good nite's sleep.

except that when one shows too many "possibilities of lies"
a judge's preponderance of reasonable doubt comes into play and if there is no direct evidence of profit taking in this as is the case in my opinion there will be no reason to hand over said data unless voltage can show all these ips are making money off there stuff....

how can anyone show that ? oh [enter ip addy here] was seen selling dvdrs of a movie at the corner ? ya ok right...surrrre...its impossible via ip only to say they were making money and it shows voltage has no clue about the law...and im not saying what they should have done to get at the id info but the screwed up and the "recoil" movie that marc states about the company used the old set of laws and as this was filed after the new law came into affect it won't or shouldn't fly.

having a persons name and address doesn't equate to profit making any more then an ip address could show you....talk to a lawyer that knows IP LAW....won't be that many as there just hasn't been a market , once this starts tons a jerks will get into it and making money off both sides while society is being harmed....

My question is how much do the millions have to take before we surround parliament and demand change and im not talking about obama change in his pocket...


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to Tx
said by Tx:

Not as hard as you think. Right now taking a look i have access to 4 unsecured routers near me. Sure they should know to secure them but to expect non technical people to know this is absurd. Sure it's ignorance on both parts, but at the end of the day that doesn't make someone a criminal

I offered to help a neighbour years ago secure his router. When I bought a laptop his unsecured network showed up. In my basement it's a weak signal, but in my kitchen it's almost as strong as the one in my home, just because of location. He declined and said his son would do it, but it was months before it was secure. I get a weak unsecured signal around here from time to time (but not sure who it is - the neighbour used his family name as his network).

The problem is that to some extent a percentage of pirates are far more tech saavy than the average user. They know people are watching and are far more likely to take advantage of the family who just love the plug and play stuff. I wonder how many users have actually even changed the password for their router?