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Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

Own ARIN IPs

voxframe made me post this

At what size are you guys getting your own ARIN assignments and AS numbers?
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO

Define size.

We did it when we added another provider, by that time we were at 1400+ customers.
--
I survived Hale-Bopp!


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

Tough question.

Personally I feel we should have done it years ago and we're not at the size of Rhaas yet.

One of the main reasons I want it is so that we are able to properly do BGP and multihoming. So for uptime and reliability, you may want this a lot earlier than you think.

Another reason I'm wanting this so badly is our upstream provider is lacking in the communications department. I've had issues with court orders for IP information hit us a week late because our upstream provider couldn't get their ducks in line and pick up the phone. (Not the voltage crapola) That alone makes me want to drop them entirely.

It makes things more complicated, and you're now directly responsible for your reputation on the internet etc. But in the end we need that as our upstream isn't doing it properly IMHO.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to Rhaas

said by Rhaas:

Define size.

We did it when we added another provider, by that time we were at 1400+ customers.

Half this size.

We are switching providers in a few months., Im wondering if I should do it then or wait. We will not be multi homed.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

If you're doing a provider switch then I would seriously recommend it. Multihomed or not.

At least this time if you ever switch, or become multihomed, you'll take your IPs with you. No more reconfiguring stuff. No more massive moves.

Also consider what I said about network responsibility. Upstream providers are not perfect with communications. So at least with your name on the block, you know the buck stops with you.

A move would be the absolute perfect time to do this. Get it done and over with and you're golden from there.


raytaylor

join:2009-07-28
kudos:1
reply to Inssomniak

I got a /23 when i had 100 subscribers and decided to stop natting while i had the chance, and before my network grew to the point where changing everything to bring in routing would be too difficult.

Do it once, Do it right.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

said by raytaylor:

I got a /23 when i had 100 subscribers and decided to stop natting while i had the chance, and before my network grew to the point where changing everything to bring in routing would be too difficult.

Do it once, Do it right.

I thought the smallest they gave out was /22s?
Maybe that changed.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to voxframe

Actually I was doing some reading and, it appears I have to be multi homed to get an AS number so I can announce any IP range?
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
reply to voxframe

Except that in some parts of the world, multihoming is a pre-requisit to obtaining your own AS number.

Just like it may also be a requirement for obtaining your own block of IPs.

Typically if you a single homed, the answer is "keep on obtaining IPs from your current provider."

That is unless you can demonstrate that you'll be multihomed "shortly" and thus your own IPs and ASN are imperative.

(Thats how it operated with APNIC anyway IIRC.)

edit: and thats what I get for not reading all the way to the end of the thread. I should be better at this by now..... :P



TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
reply to Inssomniak

If you are single homed, there is kind of no real advantage to BGP anyway.

With many providers you can, however, run BGP using one of the private ASNs. This allows you to do some of the things you do with your own public ASN, like hot standby links and BGP load balancing. Perhaps the only thing you dont get is your own ASN appearing in AS paths around the globe (since your provider will strip out your private ASN before they announce your route to other networks.)

But you still get to advertise and receive routes between each other using BGP, you can apply communities, play with localpref and MED, etc.

The difficulty then becomes when you finally do multihome, you have to change your ASN all over your network. Alternatively you could take the easy way out and retain the private ASN you were using, and just make it a "confederation" that appears as your public ASN.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

The only thing I was generally interested in right now, is that if in a few years I want to change providers again, I dont have to renumber my entire network again.

I suspect I will be multi homed, but not for 3+ years, when I need to add another provider or have 2 links to the same provider.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5

1 recommendation

I suspect a lot of people suspect the same things.

The RIRs will probably want some solid foundation to base their decision on, rather than "It could happen in a few years." Especially now with IP space as tight as it is.

In 3 years time, IPv6 will hopefully be multitudes more popular than it is now. I would probably start proofing and prep'ing your network for IPv6 instead, which by that stage may be your primary protocol, and IPv4 the side thought...

Just something to consider.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

Ok Cool thanks for the advice


raytaylor

join:2009-07-28
kudos:1
reply to Inssomniak

Yes you are right, i got a /22 instead of a /23 from APNIC

With APNIC you do have to provide the AS numbers of your two upstreams - but I just filled out the form and put my upstream's AS number as one, and used a 'possible' alternative upstream provider as the second one - even though a year later i am still not connected to them.

I have a couple of AS numbers, but i just get my upstream provider to announce them and route them to the ip address of my routers wan port which is a tail on their network.



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to Inssomniak

If/when you are Multihomed you need to prove a full /23 via SWIPE to ARIN before they will allocate a /22 IPV4. I've been in this fight for a year now. I can't get a full /23 from my Upstreams (a /24 and a couple of /27's right now) because both of them just refuse to provide me more IPs, and ARIN doesn't give a shit that their dumb ass policy has no teeth in it towards the Upstreams and at the same time they (ARIN) have ZERO flexibility to try to accommodate the small ISP, or to help us attain IPs..... So it's a ONE WAY policy designed to keep the little guys little and let the big guys do as they please. Kinda like the school yard really. Quite a Cluster F__.



Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO
reply to Inssomniak

It was a two part process for us to get our AS, and IP Space.

For the AS it was simple - show that you have two upstream providers via billing records and or contracts.

For the IP space it was a bit more complicated as I was trying to qualify for a /20. You must show your current allocation utilization, plus intended growth. I had a /21, 2 x /23, and a /24 from our upstream. I just created a spreadsheet and broke it into generic areas or by town. and showed the pool sizes and the utilization and 1 year forcasted.

»www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four2

Has all the info you need.
--
I survived Hale-Bopp!



CMack

join:2004-07-30
canada
reply to Inssomniak

You also need to show that you are currently 80% utilized or they give push back.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

So far the process seems to be going smoothly for us.

ASN is assigned and the block is being evaluated.
We have a minor hangup on the fact that one of our upstream providers doesn't want to "reassign" the block formally to us, but I think they will budge.

Hopefully that's the only hangup.

For those who need to prove 80% utilization, what form of proof do they need? Something like an excel spreadsheet showing assignments etc?



CMack

join:2004-07-30
canada
reply to Inssomniak

yes, an excel spready will do:
Region (area)
Service Type (WISP)
Subnet/s Assigned
Total IP's available
Active Customers
Homes passed
Peak Utilization %

If you have public IP's assigned to anything such as devices or customers needing one this needs to be documented as well in another spready:
IP/Subnet
Customer Name/Device Name
Purpose



Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO

I have the following (not saying this is correct, just that this is what I used when I applied)

Sheet 1: Dynamic Pools.
Each subnet (pool) is a row, with the following columns: Subnet, City/Region, Assignment Type (DHCP/PPPoE/Static), Service type (Wireless, Dialup, DSL, FTTH), Total customer usable IP Addresses, Number of actual Customers & Peak Utilization.

Sheet 2: Static IP's
I have reserved space for customer static assignments. so the first row is the reserved subnet as a whole. Each own under that is an individual customer with the columns of: Subnet, Customer.

Sheet 3: Internal Use
I have reserved subnets for internal server, etc.
The first row is the subnet, each row under that is the assignment out of that subnet. Repeating as the subnet changes. Here I have the following columns: Subnet/IP Address, Device Name/DNS, Use. Also I have the reserved space for our /30's listed here.

Sheet 4: Shared Webhosting
Here I have our webservers listed on each row with the columns of: IP Address, Hosts. The hosts are all the web sites hosted on that server.
--
I survived Hale-Bopp!



battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to Semaphore

It is complete bullshit. The system is designed to cater to large companies that are well funded while hampering the growth of smaller providers. Most smaller providers are in remote areas where secondary connections are either not available or horribly cost prohibitive.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1

Earlier this year I considered buying a /23 outright from another company.... 15K to 20K for 512 IP's (ouch). But I would outright own them and then at least I'd have enough to qualify to ARIN for a /20. Right? Brilliant lets do it! Oh, but Wait. ARIN then informed me that if I 'own' a /23 block they will force it to be returned, or simply refuse yet again to provide the /20 - so I'd end up paying up to 20K for a /20 which I would then ALSO have to lease from them ongoing. And that 'deal' didn't even come with any lube.... So a year later I'm still arguing with upstreams and ARIN and getting no where. Un-bleeping-real.



TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5

said by Semaphore:

But I would outright own them

Are you so sure?


Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO

said by TomS_:

said by Semaphore:

But I would outright own them

Are you so sure?

He would *if* the ip blocks were allocated before the RIR's/Arin. (I forget the term for the first sets of ip allocations). The RIR's have no control over those blocks. Ahh just found it. Legacy blocks (duh!)

Here is a link that will shed some light on it: »www.internetgovernance.org/2011/···ss-deal/
--
I survived Hale-Bopp!

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

That would be sweet!



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to TomS_

Well own them to the extent that I couldn't get anymore from ARIN unless I surrendered them lol. Sounds kinda like pulling up the gas pumps and being told that you have to get rid of all the fuel in your tank before you can purchase more, and there's no credit for the fuel you're going to dump (into the stations tanks).

I previously worked for a very large company and they outright owned a number of blocks. The largest was a full Class A. They had a 1/2 dozen Class B's and a shitload of C's they started on IP in the early-mid 80's.

ROFLMAO now I look at that link and the company I worked for is focus of the subject. Damn I shoulda sold myself some.



twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
reply to Inssomniak

Easy solution is to only buy backhaul from your provider to a carrier hotel and get two providers there. It usually works out cheaper anyways.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.



Killa200
Premium
join:2005-12-02
Southeast TN
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Inssomniak

We just went through the process of moving over to our own address space. Got a /22 from ARIN. Had to show intent to multihome by providing billing from two upstream providers that we currently use, and then as other said have to lay out a spreadsheet showing your current use to justify having a block of that size. you need to show majority usage of the addresses you have in play now.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

Yeppers. We're in that stage now.

I'm confident it'll go through as we're able to show that we are pretty much full.



DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA
reply to Inssomniak

We (Kaballero.Com) did it when we multi-homed Quest and AT&T several years ago. They now have 4 /22s and every sub has a public as does most of the infrastructure. At least that is the way I set it up before I left. They had maybe 2200 subs when I left and the parent company (which has declared bankruptcy) Virginia Broadband had another 2000 or so. They also had an ASN and a couple of /22s. If you are multi-homed you definately should go ahead and get your ASN and a block of addresses.

Also strongly recommend that you go ahead and get IPv6 up and running on your networks. You are going to want it badly in less than 5 years.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."