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battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to Semaphore

Re: Own ARIN IPs

It is complete bullshit. The system is designed to cater to large companies that are well funded while hampering the growth of smaller providers. Most smaller providers are in remote areas where secondary connections are either not available or horribly cost prohibitive.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1

Earlier this year I considered buying a /23 outright from another company.... 15K to 20K for 512 IP's (ouch). But I would outright own them and then at least I'd have enough to qualify to ARIN for a /20. Right? Brilliant lets do it! Oh, but Wait. ARIN then informed me that if I 'own' a /23 block they will force it to be returned, or simply refuse yet again to provide the /20 - so I'd end up paying up to 20K for a /20 which I would then ALSO have to lease from them ongoing. And that 'deal' didn't even come with any lube.... So a year later I'm still arguing with upstreams and ARIN and getting no where. Un-bleeping-real.



TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5

said by Semaphore:

But I would outright own them

Are you so sure?


Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO

said by TomS_:

said by Semaphore:

But I would outright own them

Are you so sure?

He would *if* the ip blocks were allocated before the RIR's/Arin. (I forget the term for the first sets of ip allocations). The RIR's have no control over those blocks. Ahh just found it. Legacy blocks (duh!)

Here is a link that will shed some light on it: »www.internetgovernance.org/2011/···ss-deal/
--
I survived Hale-Bopp!

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

That would be sweet!



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to TomS_

Well own them to the extent that I couldn't get anymore from ARIN unless I surrendered them lol. Sounds kinda like pulling up the gas pumps and being told that you have to get rid of all the fuel in your tank before you can purchase more, and there's no credit for the fuel you're going to dump (into the stations tanks).

I previously worked for a very large company and they outright owned a number of blocks. The largest was a full Class A. They had a 1/2 dozen Class B's and a shitload of C's they started on IP in the early-mid 80's.

ROFLMAO now I look at that link and the company I worked for is focus of the subject. Damn I shoulda sold myself some.



twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
reply to Inssomniak

Easy solution is to only buy backhaul from your provider to a carrier hotel and get two providers there. It usually works out cheaper anyways.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.



Killa200
Premium
join:2005-12-02
Southeast TN
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Inssomniak

We just went through the process of moving over to our own address space. Got a /22 from ARIN. Had to show intent to multihome by providing billing from two upstream providers that we currently use, and then as other said have to lay out a spreadsheet showing your current use to justify having a block of that size. you need to show majority usage of the addresses you have in play now.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

Yeppers. We're in that stage now.

I'm confident it'll go through as we're able to show that we are pretty much full.



DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA
reply to Inssomniak

We (Kaballero.Com) did it when we multi-homed Quest and AT&T several years ago. They now have 4 /22s and every sub has a public as does most of the infrastructure. At least that is the way I set it up before I left. They had maybe 2200 subs when I left and the parent company (which has declared bankruptcy) Virginia Broadband had another 2000 or so. They also had an ASN and a couple of /22s. If you are multi-homed you definately should go ahead and get your ASN and a block of addresses.

Also strongly recommend that you go ahead and get IPv6 up and running on your networks. You are going to want it badly in less than 5 years.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

My problem is that Im not multi homed. Fibre is not cheap where I am, and definitely dont need 2 100mb feeds right now, or am I not understanding how this works?

Twizlar mentioned getting backhaul to a carrier hotel, and getting 2 providers, how does that work? do I have to co-lo my own router there in the datacenter and then get 2 providers to that router?
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

Yes you would want to home a router there probably. When we were dual homed we got our ASN and address space. Then we single homed to AT&T and to keep our dual home status we homed with a customer who had their own T-1 with Verizon. You can be multi-homed through a customer. That is what he meant I think.

So suppose you have a hotel in your area that is homed to Quest and you are homed to Comcast. If you set up BGP between you and the hotel you are now dual homed even if they don't advertize your addresses through their pipe. They do have to run BGP to their primary and you do need to advertize their address space to the world.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

So ok Im understanding better now.
I still dont understand what happens once I have a backhaul to say a data centre, I have my router there, and at that point I need to buy internet from 2 companies. I want 100mb, Id have to buy 100 mb from 2 providers even if I never use provider 2?

I have my provider that could get me a backhaul into 151 front st carrier hotel. who am I actually renting space from to put my router?

As it stands now I have got a deal to get 100mb internet from a company. I was not going to be locating any router with them, is it a good idea at this point to co-lo a router with them there now?
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

said by Inssomniak:

So ok Im understanding better now.
I still dont understand what happens once I have a backhaul to say a data centre, I have my router there, and at that point I need to buy internet from 2 companies. I want 100mb, Id have to buy 100 mb from 2 providers even if I never use provider 2?

No. BGP is used to balance traffic across multiple networks. Well that is not exactly true but close enough for the moment.... Ok so you have a connection to the internet and your customer has a connection to the internet. Now you peer (run BGP) between your customer. Instantly you have TWO connections to the internet, or HE does, doesn't really matter if HE is willing to forward your traffic or not so long as you are willing to forward HIS traffic, you qualify for an ASN.

said by Inssomniak:

I have my provider that could get me a backhaul into 151 front st carrier hotel. who am I actually renting space from to put my router?

Well in an ideal world, he has a router pointing at you and you have one pointing at him. You might decide to set up a wireless link to him and put your router on his end. Doesn't really matter where the router is so long as it can run BGP between it and his router.

said by Inssomniak:

As it stands now I have got a deal to get 100mb internet from a company. I was not going to be locating any router with them, is it a good idea at this point to co-lo a router with them there now?

No. Let them deliver the bandwidth and keep that router on your property.

What I am saying is that if you have someone (a customer) who is already homed with another provider and has an ASN then you can home to them, and thereby provide them a redundant path to the Internet, and that will qualify you for an ASN and some addresses. Then you will have to set up BGP between you and your carrier and between you and him. Essentially he becomes a redundant carrier for you, EVEN IF he does not actually allow your traffic across his network. But YOU must allow his traffic across your network.

You do have to document how you are using any addresses you already have though.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

Ok got it thx for explaining that.

I do not on the other hand have any customers that have other means to connect to the internet.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

Just need to correct one thing I said. Neither of you need to have an ASN. Once you decide to peer with BGP you both qualify for an ASN.



twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
reply to Inssomniak

Yeah sorry I should have clarified more. You would simply sign agreements with 2 providers for bandwidth and then have it backhauled to your routers/pop. You don't need to place your router at the datacenter, you can have both connections backhauled over a vlan to your pop.

You would buy a 100mbit port to both providers and then purchase however much bandwidth you needed based on 95th percentile. Realistically you could probably get 100mbit unmetered connections for around $300-400 each plus your backhaul costs. Once you get close to needing 100mbit it is usually cheaper to backhaul it and purchase your own transit this way versus buying 100mbit of bandwidth from your provider.

This would meet all the requirements of being dual homed and would allow you to get an ASN and an IP allocation.

If you don't mind me asking who are you getting the fibre from?
--
Broadline Networks Inc.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

said by twizlar:

Yeah sorry I should have clarified more. You would simply sign agreements with 2 providers for bandwidth and then have it backhauled to your routers/pop. You don't need to place your router at the datacenter, you can have both connections backhauled over a vlan to your pop.

You would buy a 100mbit port to both providers and then purchase however much bandwidth you needed based on 95th percentile. Realistically you could probably get 100mbit unmetered connections for around $300-400 each plus your backhaul costs. Once you get close to needing 100mbit it is usually cheaper to backhaul it and purchase your own transit this way versus buying 100mbit of bandwidth from your provider.

This would meet all the requirements of being dual homed and would allow you to get an ASN and an IP allocation.

If you don't mind me asking who are you getting the fibre from?

Ill PM you.

Since you are in the same area as me.... Id buy a 100mb "backhaul" from Shaw to 151. Then I get 2 providers, they backhaul it to me. (I dont understand how they hook that up at the DC though?). I never understood 95th percentile. I peak around 75 megabit in the evening.

So Shaw would bill me a backhaul fee, then each provider would bill me for transit. ?

All while meeting multi homed requirements?
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3

Yep, thats exactly how it would work. Shaw would give you a vlan across their network and terminating on their router/switch at 151 Front Street. You would then contract 2 providers and purchase bandwidth from them. You would work with your fibre provider to backkhaul the bandwidth to your location, typically this portion is fairly easy to do though.

The only thing you need to watch out for is cross connect fees if your provider isn't willing to drop your vlan into the meet me room.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to Inssomniak

I use a Freeware app called Observium to monitor some of my commercial customers who are billed on 95th. You could use it to monitor yourself. Basically it takes utilization samples at regular intervals (typically 5 minutes) and discards the top 5% of the samples. What you're left with is the 95th.

95th is a "good idea" if your traffic is bursty; you get about 36 hours a month where you can hit 100% but you are being billed for 95% of that. Most providers look at in and out traffic separately and bill for the highest of the two.

Some will charge you steep overage fees if you exceed your 95th though so you need to be careful in that regard.

I wish independent transit was an option in my area. I had to build 40kms in each direction just to reach a single supplier at each end. LOL Forget about transit. Should be glad I have light.



twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3

All transit providers are going to bill you at 95th percentile, however a good portion of them also offer full usage ports as well.

If you can reach any of the fibre suppliers you can probably have it backhauled pretty cheaply. Rogers has plenty of assets in your area.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1

Yeah Rogers, Quest, Cogeco and Bell (via EORN) are my choices for 'real' carriers. I'm currently with two of them. Cheap is not in the vocabulary here I'm afraid, and just backhaul without transit is almost as expense as transit via the carrier. Add on the absolute lack of cooperation and it's just a complete cluster f___.



twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3

That is pretty strange, I recall quoting out several backhaul only circuits in your area on rogers fibre for roughly $950 for 100/100.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.



Killa200
Premium
join:2005-12-02
Southeast TN
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Inssomniak

And this is just hitting the requirements to get space with ARIN being multi-homed. You can qualify for space and only have 1 provider, no multi-homing, but the smallest block they offer for that qualification is a /20, and you have to show the need to use the majority of it after surrendering your old address space back to whomever your renting it form.


jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
reply to twizlar

said by twizlar:

That is pretty strange, I recall quoting out several backhaul only circuits in your area on rogers fibre for roughly $950 for 100/100.

I'd jump on that in a heartbeat. The CHEAPEST 100/100 backhaul only circuit I've been able to get a quote for in my area was around $3500.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

Ditto... Our fiber link is 2700$ a month where we are.

On a side note, talked to our handler at ARIN. Our request was essentially approved, but they closed offices at 3:00PM today, and unfortunately I can't open my X-mas present until after the holidays.

DOH!



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to twizlar

Umm. You sure you know where I am ? Not saying it can't be done but I'd be surprised if you can hit that mark in this area. Robbers's port access fee alone is $1,200 per month. Bandwidth is on top of that and it's in excess of $18 per Mbps per month at 100 Mbps. I pay less than that with my primary provider but not by much.... and again I can't get friggin IP's to save my soul.



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to voxframe

said by voxframe:

Ditto... Our fiber link is 2700$ a month where we are.

On a side note, talked to our handler at ARIN. Our request was essentially approved, but they closed offices at 3:00PM today, and unfortunately I can't open my X-mas present until after the holidays.

DOH!

OK I hate you. I rescind my former proposal for matrimonial bliss :-P

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

LMAO!

Choking on my coffee

Oh I hope they assign something simple and cool.

69.69.69.0/22 would be cool with me.

EDIT - I can't imagine calling any tech and having to give that address to them with out having either of us crack some kind of smile.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to Inssomniak

#
# Query terms are ambiguous.  The query is assumed to be:
#     "n 69.69.69.69"
#
# Use "?" to get help.
#
 
#
# The following results may also be obtained via:
# http://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=69.69.69.69?showDetails=true&showARIN=false&ext=netref2
#
 
NetRange:       69.68.0.0 - 69.69.255.255
CIDR:           69.68.0.0/15
OriginAS:
NetName:        EMBARQ-GLOBAL
NetHandle:      NET-69-68-0-0-1
Parent:         NET-69-0-0-0-0
NetType:        Direct Allocation
RegDate:        2003-08-05
Updated:        2012-03-02
Ref:            http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-69-68-0-0-1
 
OrgName:        Embarq Corporation
OrgId:          EMBAR
Address:        500 N New York Ave
City:           Winter Park
StateProv:      FL
PostalCode:     32789
Country:        US
RegDate:        2006-07-06
Updated:        2012-06-06
Comment:        http://www.CenturyLink.com
Ref:            http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/EMBAR
 

SHIT! So much for that hope.

On a side note, SOMEONE out there has one of the coolest IPs on the planet. :D