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fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
Premium
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA

1 recommendation

reply to La Luna

Re: Anonymous Hacks Westboro Baptist Church web site

said by La Luna:

I think you would be hard pressed to find any true Christians who approve of Westboro's despicable tactics. They are an anomaly.

They claim to be the "true christians" and everyone else is "fake". So, who are we (non-christians) to believe? Every one of the 217+ recognized denominations of christian churches claims to be the only correct one.

Saying that one nonsense is more correct than another nonsense is, well, nonsense.
--
Teabaggers: Destroying America is Priority #1
Expand your moderator at work


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

1 recommendation

reply to La Luna

Re: Anonymous Hacks Westboro Baptist Church web site

said by La Luna:

I think you would be hard pressed to find any true Christians

Fixed.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

1 edit

5 recommendations

reply to EGeezer

said by EGeezer:

it's unfortunate how many people in our supposedly tolerant American society use religion to spread fear, hate and bigotry in the name of the Christian religion based on love, compassion, forgiveness and redemption.

Westboro Baptist Church is not a bad church; they are not a church at all; they are a law firm posing as a church.

They are trying to bait people - especially local governments - from restricting their "rights" where they can sue for damages under religious discrimination. The "church" is made up almost entirely by the Phelps family, many of whom work at the Phelps Law Firm.

They're just disgusting human beings, and any attempts to discredit their "religious beliefs" is giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Security Consultant | Orange County, California USA | my web site


bTU

join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO

2 recommendations

The sued people from the local Patriot Guard Riders for infringement of their civil liberties. We counter protested them by using our bikes to block their view of a military funeral motorcade and revved our engines so no one could hear their hate speech.



kingdome74
Let's Go Orange
Premium
join:2002-03-27
Syracuse, NY
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to trparky

Here's where this debate goes off the rails - this church doesn't break any laws. Instead they use them to their advantage no different than someone uses the tax code to theirs. Breaking the law - especially laws that protect speech - is the complete usurping of what we're supposed to be all about. As much as we despise these folks - I've had my own run in with them at a military funeral up here - as long as they break no laws they have every right afforded to them granted in the Constitution and as such should be free from vigilante justice. I always wonder how the same people who yell about their rights being taken from them are the first to take them from others.
--
Stayed #4. Next up on 12/15 Canisius. Nassib was named All-American over Bridgewater in Pro Football Weekly. Grats Ryan!



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

1 edit

1 recommendation

A person who bases their morality around whatever the laws are, is not a moral person at all.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

And yet how many people say "it's legal, so I'm not doing anything wrong" (regarding tax loopholes, etc.).



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

Yep. Something doesn't have to be illegal for it to be wrong. Also, just because something is illegal, doesn't mean it's wrong either.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

Well of course. Well-constructed laws make illegal what is already immoral (or exist for order and the common good--i.e. speed limits), but there are legal--but immoral--acts, as much as there are illegal--but moral--acts (or put another way, it would be immoral if you didn't act by breaking the law).

But as a society, we have a hard time agreeing on what is immoral and should be made illegal.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.



Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

2 recommendations

reply to trparky

The problem arises from confusing "moral" with "legal". Laws may (and usually do) reflect a culture's consensus standards of morality, but not all morality is reflected in laws. And not all laws, as written, necessarily are moral statements. In the end, morality is an individual perception that may or may not concur with one's neighbors' views of morals, but laws are general, public pronouncements of specific things that are or are not allowed.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville



La Luna
RIP Lisa
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to Archivis

said by Archivis:

said by La Luna:

I think you would be hard pressed to find any true Christians

Fixed.

Nope. My statement stands. But I'm not going to get into a debate about religion. Westboro is wrong. Period. Any thinking, rational human wouldn't do what they do. Their deeds speak louder than their words.
--
The Alien in the White House

20,085 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11


kingdome74
Let's Go Orange
Premium
join:2002-03-27
Syracuse, NY
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by La Luna:

Westboro is wrong. Period. Any thinking, rational human wouldn't do what they do. Their deeds speak louder than their words.

While that may be true I think you'd agree with me that they still deserve the same right to freely express their views as you and I do. As we know people have the right to freely express their stupidity. We certainly see enough of that every day.
--
Stayed #4. Next up on 12/15 Canisius. Nassib was named All-American over Bridgewater in Pro Football Weekly. Grats Ryan!


Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

2 recommendations

reply to trparky

Caution: don't make Westboro's actions anything about religious belief. What Steve posted earlier about what is going on is true: this is, as it's always been in similar cases, about setting up public confrontations involving outrageous picketing in order to stimulate lawsuits over "free speech" rights. That is, it's about the money. Over and over again.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville



scelli
Native New Yorker
Premium
join:1999-08-07
FLOT/FEBA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to La Luna

said by La Luna:

said by Archivis:

said by La Luna:

I think you would be hard pressed to find any true Christians

Fixed.

Nope. My statement stands. But I'm not going to get into a debate about religion. Westboro is wrong. Period. Any thinking, rational human wouldn't do what they do. Their deeds speak louder than their words.

Seconded, La Luna!

In addition:: The childish editing of comments to reflect different viewpoints than what the original poster intended has long ago worn out its welcome.
--
The maximum effective range of an excuse is ZERO meters!


La Luna
RIP Lisa
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to kingdome74

said by kingdome74:

said by La Luna:

Westboro is wrong. Period. Any thinking, rational human wouldn't do what they do. Their deeds speak louder than their words.

While that may be true I think you'd agree with me that they still deserve the same right to freely express their views as you and I do. As we know people have the right to freely express their stupidity. We certainly see enough of that every day.

They have the right, but others also have the right to THEIR privacy. Westboro doesn't (or shouldn't) have the right to force their skewed beliefs (which are all about making $ anyway) onto others, especially in times of grief. That only proves they are hoping to get sued sue to try and make $ and are falsely using "religion" as an excuse.

"Rights" work both ways. You have the right to say it and I have the right to tell you to take a hike, get lost, I don't want to hear it, and you should abide by that. That's the part Westboro purposely ignores in their quest to pad their bank account.

Edit: corrected context
--
The Alien in the White House

20,085 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11


kingdome74
Let's Go Orange
Premium
join:2002-03-27
Syracuse, NY
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

True, true but was there anything illegal about their website and was there any legal ground for the hacking thereof? WBC follows the laws that they are faced with when they come to town. Every town/city can make their own laws regarding their ability to protest anywhere near where the people are grieving. Even the ACLU has begrudgingly given them some support. Beyond that I think it's pretty cowardly hide behind a keyboard. I guess from what I'm reading in a security forum if I don't like a something I can hack without regard to the laws because I have "right" on my side. Why do people bitch when they get their World of Warcraft account hacked? It's the same thing. Either way it's illegal.
--
Stayed #4. Next up on 12/15 Canisius. Nassib was named All-American over Bridgewater in Pro Football Weekly. Grats Ryan!



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 recommendation

reply to fuziwuzi

said by fuziwuzi:

Every one of the 217+ recognized denominations of christian churches claims to be the only correct one.

Oh, wait. Just foolish hyperbole. No need to ask foolish question in response.

Saying that one nonsense is more correct than another nonsense is, well, nonsense.

More nonsense! Sure is a lot of nonsense in this thread today!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

said by NormanS:

More nonsense! Sure is a lot of nonsense in this thread today!

It sure is. Everyone wants to debate about which version of fiction is the truest form of fiction.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Hank
Searching for a new Frontier
Premium
join:2002-05-21
Burlington, WV
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

said by Archivis:

said by NormanS:

More nonsense! Sure is a lot of nonsense in this thread today!

It sure is. Everyone wants to debate about which version of fiction is the truest form of fiction.

So if it was something, like atheist or Islam, it would be true in your eyes?


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Archivis

said by Archivis:

It sure is. Everyone wants to debate about which version of fiction is the truest form of fiction.

Your belief is just that; hardly factual.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


pc319
Premium
join:2002-04-24
North Royalton, OH
reply to Hank

These low life scum wanted to do the same thing for the funerals of the Chardon school shootings back in Feb. Drove there to participate in the human fence a Facebook campaign started, but they never showed thankfully.



goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 recommendation

reply to Hank

said by Hank:

So if it was something, like atheist or Islam, it would be true in your eyes?

Glad to see you mention atheists, since they exhibit the same fervor as the Christians they decry (if not more.) :P The anti-religion religion ...

Returning to Westboro, as previously mentioned, they're not Baptists (the Baptists have disavowed them), they're lawyers. They're only a "church" because it gives them tax-exempt status. So religion of any denomination (pro or con) really has nothing to do with the discussion. They're trolls, a particularly nasty variety, with no redeeming qualities or message.

So as always when watching one criminal element feed off another, if Anonymous goes after them I'm not about to cry. Technically they may have rights, but not to the extent their rights infringe on others'. They crossed that line long ago.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to Hank

said by Hank:

So if it was something, like atheist or Islam, it would be true in your eyes?

No, did I insinuate that? My apologies.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to NormanS

said by NormanS:

Your belief is just that; hardly factual.

Yes, exactly! I prefer to live in the factual, so let's not talk about true Christians, because religion isn't based upon the factual. Facts do not require belief, anyways.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 recommendation

said by Archivis:

Yes, exactly! I prefer to live in the factual, so let's not talk about true Christians, because religion isn't based upon the factual. Facts do not require belief, anyways.

Belief does not require facts. Your beliefs about religion are not based on facts, they are just belief. Nothing more.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


EGeezer
zichrona livracha
Premium
join:2002-08-04
Midwest
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to kingdome74

said by kingdome74:

as long as they break no laws they have every right afforded to them granted in the Constitution and as such should be free from vigilante justice. I always wonder how the same people who yell about their rights being taken from them are the first to take them from others.

"Their rights" end where "our rights" begin.
--
Buckle Up. It makes it harder for the aliens to suck you out of your car.


La Luna
RIP Lisa
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3
reply to trparky

The POINT is that they do what they do, and TRY (albeit very poorly) to claim it's in the name of Christianity. Their skewed version of Christianity. That insults people, whether atheists can understand that or not.

The FACT is that they are NOT a bona fide religious organization, as mentioned, they are nothing but a bunch of skeevy lawyers working a loophole to make money. They should lose their religious tax deferment.
--
The Alien in the White House

20,085 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to NormanS

I don't have beliefs about religion. I'm not Atheist, Christian, Muslim, etc. I think the closest term would be Agnostic. I accept that there are certain questions that I simply don't or won't have answers to. If you can provide evidence as to why your fairy tales aren't fairy tales, I'm open to accepting that. I happen to believe that an atheistic mindset is just as narrow-minded as a committedly religious mindset.

When you get into the specifics on each religion, the discovery is made that there are a multitude of contradictions that fall flat on their face, or that if someone were entirely true to their teachings, that there are so many violent and exclusionary instructions that they're too extreme to allowed to be actually followed in today's world. How can someone be true to their religious beliefs when they can dismiss significant portions of their texts? Who gets to decide what gets dismissed and what stays? Why are some parts more invalid than others?
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to La Luna

said by La Luna:

The POINT is that they do what they do, and TRY (albeit very poorly) to claim it's in the name of Christianity. Their skewed version of Christianity. That insults people, whether atheists can understand that or not.

The FACT is that they are NOT a bona fide religious organization, as mentioned, they are nothing but a bunch of skeevy lawyers working a loophole to make money. They should lose their religious tax deferment.

I can agree with that. The next step though is to actually read through some of the writings of some of the family members. You'll find that no only are the family members lawyers, but some of them are of the most deranged. We're not talking about trolls trying to get a reaction. We're talking about severely mentally damaged and abusive people who have learned how to master the law to bend the world to their will.

There was one of the children who left the home upon becoming an adult and champions the very causes their parents protest against. He wrote about the violently abusive upbringing he had. These people believe the shit they're spewing.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK