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dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues

Re: Oshawa loses Camaro production

said by elwoodblues:

Tell me how you'll feel when your employer decides to come along an arbitrarily cut your pay.

don't ask me how i'll feel if some made up scenario happens...go ask all the factory workers who are out of a job how they feel.
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to FiReSTaRT

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to FiReSTaRT
said by FiReSTaRT:

I don't work as a "consultant" or "contractor" by choice. Companies started "contracting" "consultants" so they can reduce the amount of responsibility they have toward the emp.. I mean "consultant". I don't get vacation pay, benefits, sick days or paid holidays. If they tell me I'm canned today, I don't get any severance or anything like that.

i realize that...and why do you think it has come to that??

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by elwoodblues:

Tell me how you'll feel when your employer decides to come along an arbitrarily cut your pay.

don't ask me how i'll feel if some made up scenario happens...go ask all the factory workers who are out of a job how they feel.

Why? Can't answer a question how you'd feel? You seem to be quite content in your union bashing and that they make too much money.
elwoodblues

elwoodblues to peterboro

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to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by elwoodblues:

You live in la la land.
You're right, we have labour laws to protect workers, but give me a break, they'll just think of a different reason to get rid of you if you don't play ball.

Large companies and institutions have specialized human resources departments, labour relations departments and outside law firms that are very adept at making sure you go away if the employer doesn't want you and no union can protect you.

Exactly, i have a friend who is going through a divorce (it came out of the blue), and was a manager for a retail store. He went on vacation, came back and found out he had been demoted. They claimed his "performance" (sales) was subpar.

No warnings, no nothing. is that legal? I'm not sure, but if he started a fuss, you can be rest assured he'd not only be demoted but out of a job.

But Peteboro,we have nothing to worry about DJ can get a job tomorrow after being let go.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

said by elwoodblues:

But Peteboro,we have nothing to worry about DJ can get a job tomorrow after being let go.

It's good to know I can get another job tomorrow if need be unless it's just relegated to DJ that is. I'll still sleep somewhat better tonight.

BryceS
join:2007-09-17
Stouffville, ON

BryceS to donoreo

Member

to donoreo
said by FiReSTaRT:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

loyalty...hah...employees don't have loyalty any more...this isn't the 50s to 80s...most people now switch jobs every 5 years on average now...many people now work as "consultants"...times have changed...i'm not saying its better, or worse, just different.

I don't work as a "consultant" or "contractor" by choice. Companies started "contracting" "consultants" so they can reduce the amount of responsibility they have toward the emp.. I mean "consultant". I don't get vacation pay, benefits, sick days or paid holidays. If they tell me I'm canned today, I don't get any severance or anything like that.

You're self employed.

Your Ontario corporation pays 15% income tax.

You can pay yourself via dividend $44K per year before you start paying personal income taxes.

Properly secure yourself financially on your own means without worrying if your pension will be there in 30 years.

You have a wicked setup.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

said by BryceS:

You can pay yourself via dividend $44K per year before you start paying personal income taxes.

Wouldn't he then have to declare the 44k dividend income personally and pay tax on that. Somewhere down the line, unless you are wealthy enough to hide your money, the government always gets their taste.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by elwoodblues:

Tell me how you'll feel when your employer decides to come along an arbitrarily cut your pay.

don't ask me how i'll feel if some made up scenario happens...go ask all the factory workers who are out of a job how they feel.

Why? Can't answer a question how you'd feel? You seem to be quite content in your union bashing and that they make too much money.

one of our divisions took a bit of a hit during the meaty part of the recession, and some staff were laid off and others had to do mandatory days off...to "look good", we did it too, to help share the burden (i think it was one day a month for about 4 months)...a large order came through, so it didn't last long and everything was quickly back to normal...my point was don't ask me about some pretend scenario, when you could easily go out and ask real people who no longer have jobs.

and i'm not union bashing, i'm simply telling it like it is...union membership 30 years ago accounted for something like 50% of the workforce...it's now down to something like 8%.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to peterboro

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to peterboro
said by peterboro:

Wouldn't he then have to declare the 44k dividend income personally and pay tax on that. Somewhere down the line, unless you are wealthy enough to hide your money, the government always gets their taste.

You can earn that much from a private Canadian-controlled corporation before dividend income becomes taxable. While T4 income only has a personal exemption of 8K-10K, T5 income for those specific type of corporations has an exemption in the range of the number Bryce mentioned (I don't think it's quite that high, but it's close).

The logic being, if you earn a dividend from the company the corporation is the one paying the income tax. If you pay yourself as employment income using a T4 it becomes a non-taxable expense for the corporation but you end up paying tax on it personally, usually at a much higher rate than the corporation would pay.

Most smart people do a combo of T4, T5 and shareholder loans from the corporation. There's ways to balance out to minimize the total amount of tax paid by the corporation and the shareholders instead of dumping it all into one without optimizing the taxes payable. What we do is just cut ourselves cheques throughout the year, and then let the accountant figure out what gets divided into what at year end.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to TLS2000

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to TLS2000
That was DJ that made the comment
elwoodblues

elwoodblues to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
One day a month BFD, I asked about having your wages slashed like you are advocating with right to work.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by elwoodblues:

One day a month BFD, I asked about having your wages slashed like you are advocating with right to work.

elwood, we have been down this road before...i didn't advocate slashing everyone's wages...and the people in the plants down south make good money (depending on what they do)...most of the production line jobs pay in the $35-$50k range, with trades up from there ($50-$65k)...what you have/had up here was unskilled labour making $60-$80k+/year...now that those jobs have left, they are stuck making $14/hr doing basic simple jobs (home depot, auto parts stores, walmart, etc)...perhaps if they made a more reasonable salary for the work they did, they would likely still have jobs and decent benefits...most of their counterparts down south certainly do.
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to elwoodblues

Premium Member

to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

One day a month BFD, I asked about having your wages slashed like you are advocating with right to work.

as well, why would i have my wages slashed??

i am paid a fair salary for the work done, plus i get bonuses when we meet our sales targets (which we have been surpassing)...this type of compensation is sustainable, since i share in the success of the company (which is similar to the recent UAW contract)...if we don't meet our targets, i don't get a bonus...it helps to keep salaries in check.

as well, since my manager is off next week, as is our President, he put me in charge next week...that wasn't possible to do with the person i replaced...it is why they spent considerably more money to hire me...i bring a lot more to the table and make sure i am a valuable member of the team, not by holding the company hostage through a union, but by doing my job and doing it well.

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
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join:2004-02-16

koira

Premium Member

Say for example you had the choice to take a 10 or 15 % wage reduction and keep your job or have your job called redundant and plant closed. Which would you pick ?

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by koira:

Say for example you had the choice to take a 10 or 15 % wage reduction and keep your job or have your job called redundant and plant closed. Which would you pick ?

presented with those options, i would take the pay cut and keep my job...if it bothered me that much, i would consider looking for work elsewhere if i really had to have that money back...however, perhaps i could negotiate the pay differently, in that i take the pay cut, but increase the bonus amounts, so if the company was still doing well, i wouldn't really see much (if any) loss in pay...it isn't something i need to seriously consider though, as there is no way my job would be considered "redundant"...the company i work for is not a massive company with hundreds of people (in my direct area)...in my office there are only 6 of us (the President, Sales Manager, me, Service Manager, Apps support and 2 service techs).

koira
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join:2004-02-16

koira

Premium Member

yeah take a cut and then look for something else if necessary.
Its a win win, the company reduces cost and at least you stay employed.
I wish more companies explored that option, RIM for example throwing thousands of people under the bus when they could have used some extra heads to expedite the work.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by koira:

yeah take a cut and then look for something else if necessary.
Its a win win, the company reduces cost and at least you stay employed.
I wish more companies explored that option, RIM for example throwing thousands of people under the bus when they could have used some extra heads to expedite the work.

Right, but what would you do if they were demanding a 50% cut? You know, a cut for the same job that's less than EI would pay you for sitting on your ass?

koira
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join:2004-02-16

koira

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i didn't ask about 50 %, thats extreme. Maybe better than nothing though.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by koira:

i didn't ask about 50 %, thats extreme. Maybe better than nothing though.

the problem with the "50% pay cut" example where it is being applied to...for example, when elwood asks me about a 50% pay cut scenario, it isn't realistic, since what i do is unlikely to be done by someone at half my pay (since i make almost twice as much as the person i replaced).

a better example would be a cashier at the grocery store...if they were making $35/hr ringing in groceries, the "50% pay cut" example makes sense, since high school students do the same work for $12/hr...that doesn't mean i think every cashier should be paid $12/hr (since i know a couple of people in here will automatically assume that is what i meant)...my point is, there is a tipping point, and once that tipping point is reached, all bets are off (for a company)...why were we paying grocery store cashiers more than nurses or teachers...that makes no sense.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to koira

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to koira
said by koira:

i didn't ask about 50 %, thats extreme.

That's what the guys in London were told they had to do.

Just sayin.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by Gone:

said by koira:

i didn't ask about 50 %, thats extreme.

That's what the guys in London were told they had to do.

Just sayin.

not all of them, just the production workers...FWIW, most production workers around here only make in the $15-$20/hr range everywhere else...the fact they made $35+/hr at EMD was an anomaly, created because of their union involvement...good for them for getting big bucks, but they shouldn't be surprised they priced themselves out of jobs...the trades workers were still going to be paid $34/hr, which is about a $2/hr cut...one thing i never heard of is what the trades people thought of it...essentially, it was the pay of the production staff that caused everyone to lose their jobs...in the end, it's really moot anyway, since they wanted to close that plant for some time.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

Well, seeing as how EI would pay more for them to sit on their ass, I don't blame them for feeling the way they did.
peterboro (banned)
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join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to dirtyjeffer0

Member

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

the problem with the "50% pay cut" example where it is being applied to...for example, when elwood asks me about a 50% pay cut scenario, it isn't realistic, since what i do is unlikely to be done by someone at half my pay (since i make almost twice as much as the person i replaced).

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is someone out there who is more qualified than you, would do a better job and would work for 50% of what you make. I think you are lulling yourself into a false sense of security if you believe otherwise.

Another thing. Skill, experience and education and are not the complete composite of a jobs net worth on the market. There are jobs out there being done by illiterate people with little to no experience that pay far more than you without union interference.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to donoreo

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to donoreo
Why do people always assume dark, nefarious reasons for business decisions made?
quote:
GM said the decision to move the Camaro to Lansing Grand River would cut capital costs and improve efficiencies by consolidating production of the rear wheel drive Camaro at a plant that also makes the rear wheel drive Cadillac CTS and ATS.
Maybe the new models (all RWD) require expensive capital equipment that isn't needed for 3 shifts at two plants?
quote:
The launch of the Impala will create a third shift and 900 additional jobs early in 2013, the company also noted.
quote:
The Canadian Auto Workers union estimated it could mean a loss of 1,000 direct jobs starting in late 2015 unless GM replaces the Camaro with another product.
So if I read between the lines there, that's +900 jobs in Oshawa in 2013, with a possible loss of 1,000 in late 2015? Boo-frickin-hoo.

TLS2000
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join:2004-02-24
Elmsdale, NS
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TLS2000 to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

elwood, we have been down this road before...i didn't advocate slashing everyone's wages...

You don't advocate slashing everyone's wages. You only advocate slashing the wages of people that you've judged to be lesser people than you because they aren't in the same circumstances that you are.

Tell me DJ, I'm making about $20/hr doing a job that most people would say is an unskilled job. I'm getting paid that because of the union that I'm in. Do you think I should be making $14/hr?

What if I told you that I excel at the job and receive nothing but praise from my supervisors? What if I'm using that job to pay for an education so that I can better myself? Do I deserve less?

You advocate the dismantling of unions because they protect lazy, uneducated workers. What you fail to see with all of the vitriol you keep spewing about unions is that they protect dedicated workers who are trying to better themselves AND their companies as well. They provide a more level playing field when it comes to dealing with management and give people an avenue that they can use to deal with legitimate grievances with their employers.

Do unions protect lazy, uneducated workers? Yes! But at the same time they're helping people like myself who actually are trying to get ahead in the world. People like you keep spewing out their vitriol and allow companies to justify elimination of union jobs. Your attitude towards unions is what allows those companies to get away with shipping those jobs overseas. Sure they turn around and list the benefits of "lower prices", but don't delude yourself into thinking that they're shipping those jobs overseas in order to lower prices. They're doing it to increase profit margins. In a lot of cases, they're not even passing the savings on to consumers.

Tell me, how much cheaper is it to buy a car that went from a unionized plant in Ontario or Michigan to a non-unionized plant in the south? It's not? Right, because the automotive company is keeping that extra money in their pockets.

When unions are finally eliminated, and the majority of people are making less than $15/hr what you will see is that people won't be able to afford whatever crap it is that your company sells. You'll get downsized and replaced by a more qualified person who is willing to take less money. If you don't believe that look at the trucking industry. Truck drivers were well paid in the 1980s, making upwards of $20-25/hr for what they do. Fast forward to 30 years later and most truckers are LUCKY to make more than $20/hr. The vast majority of them are making $14-18/hr because they have been replaced by cheaper workers who were willing to take lower wages.

Most of those replacement workers are immigrant workers and a lot of them don't ever see their families, like my neighbour's ex-husband who I had never met in the entire six years that they lived here before they got divorced.

This is the reason that unions exist. People like you that keep spewing your hate for unions while advocating that people should be willing to get abused by their employers make me sick. Yes there are unions that are too powerful, and yes there are unions that have priced themselves out of the market, but it takes two to tango. Companies can say no to unreasonable wage increases. Better yet, companies should find better ways of working with the unions in order to benefit all involved. Instead of beating down the workers like you keep advocating, companies and workers should cooperate in benefiting everyone involved. That's the ONLY sustainable method of doing things.
TLS2000

TLS2000 to Ian1

Premium Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

So if I read between the lines there, that's +900 jobs in Oshawa in 2013, with a possible loss of 1,000 in late 2015? Boo-frickin-hoo.

Did you miss the articles last year where GM announced that the next Impala will be made in Michigan too?

That leaves a Buick and the Cadillac ATS for Oshawa. Hardly big movers.
mr weather
Premium Member
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON

mr weather

Premium Member

I thought one of the reasons for moving Camaro production to MI was because the Cadillac CTS and ATS (both rear-drivers) are built there?

urbanriot
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join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot to TLS2000

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to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:

What if I told you that I excel at the job and receive nothing but praise from my supervisors?

... then he'd probably reply, "Well in that case, why do you need a union!?"

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to mr weather

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to mr weather
said by mr weather:

I thought one of the reasons for moving Camaro production to MI was because the Cadillac CTS and ATS (both rear-drivers) are built there?

Correct. Damn company trying to leverage the same capital equipment to make 3 RWD models in the same plant? What are they nuts?

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to TLS2000

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to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

elwood, we have been down this road before...i didn't advocate slashing everyone's wages...

You don't advocate slashing everyone's wages. You only advocate slashing the wages of people that you've judged to be lesser people than you because they aren't in the same circumstances that you are.

We have a winner!