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<title>Topic &#x27;Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA&#x27; in forum &#x27;TekSavvy&#x27; - dslreports.com</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839198</link>
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<pubDate>Sun, 26 May 2013 00:50:20 EDT</pubDate>
<lastBuildDate>Sun, 26 May 2013 00:50:20 EDT</lastBuildDate>

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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27909054</link>
<description><![CDATA[FatBastid posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1536091" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1536091');">resa1983</a>:</said><p>So, lets go through the test with this case, shall we?<br>1. Reasonable expectation of privacy?  Yes.<br>2. Prima facie case of wrongdoing? Yes, until the evidence is tried anyways (which isn't required for a court order)<br>3. Plaintiff tried to identify the poster & unable to? Yes.<br>4. Public Interest favouring disclosure outweighs freedom of express & privacy... Yes.<br><br> </p></div>No. 1 is a toss up, but I really don't see how you get Yes on No. 4., how is the public interest served by allowing 2,000 suits for commercial copyright infringement with no proof? It is obvious from Votage's filing that claim is 100% made up. Which makes it a waste of the court's time and of public money.  Anyway, let's see how the court looks at this, if CIPICC gets standing all these questions will get answered one way or another.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:47:54 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27909021</link>
<description><![CDATA[jkoblovsky posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1536091" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1536091');">resa1983</a>:</said><p>I'm just going to respond to a few different things.. Excuse the mess. :)<br><br>The only problem is, the last 2 copytroll cases (1 which was Voltage in Fall 2011, 1 which was NGN Fall 2012), the courts accepted the plaintiff's request as to the format of the information, and ordered it as such.  So there is some history here already.<br><br>They will be requesting remuneration for their costs.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Whatever that amount may be.<br><br>This has been tested extensively, with a bunch of defamation suits.<br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/7533807/phil-mickelson-files-lawsuit-find-source-defamation" >espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/7533&middot;&middot;&middot;famation</A>   resulted in   &raquo;<A HREF="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tzQrTURrgrYJ:www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/mickelson_wins_lawsuit_against_anonymous_blogger+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a" >webcache.googleusercontent.com/s&middot;&middot;&middot;irefox-a</A><br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://zvulony.ca/2012/articles/internet-law/anonymous-defamation-postings/" >zvulony.ca/2012/articles/interne&middot;&middot;&middot;ostings/</A><br><br>Geist himself even wrote about this:<br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5955/135/" >www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5955/135/</A><br><br>So, lets go through the test with this case, shall we?<br>1. Reasonable expectation of privacy?  Yes.<br>2. Prima facie case of wrongdoing? Yes, until the evidence is tried anyways (which isn't required for a court order)<br>3. Plaintiff tried to identify the poster & unable to? Yes.<br>4. Public Interest favouring disclosure outweighs freedom of express & privacy... Yes.<br><br>The only thing people HAVE been able to do, is argue to stay anonymous with representation, conduct a full trial, while the judge knows who you are.<br><br>I'm sorry to say that you have no right to privacy whatsoever if libeling someone, or breaking the law (ie copyright infringement).<br> </p></div>This point with respect to privacy is not helpful in describing where the responsibility lies in this particular case.  Consumers are owed crystal clear answers moving forward with respect to their rights.<br><br>Businesses do not have to directly challenge the issues with respect to privacy.  What they do have to do under PIPEDA is to ensure that the merits of the requests and evidence presented are sound prior to release, which in this case falls on TSI to do DIRECTLY.<br><br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://excesscopyright.blogspot.ca/2013/01/voltage-pictures-mass-litigation-what.html" >excesscopyright.blogspot.ca/2013&middot;&middot;&middot;hat.html</A><br><small>--<br>My Canadian Tech Podcast: &raquo;<A HREF="http://canadiantechnetwork.podbean.com/" >canadiantechnetwork.podbean.com/</A><br>My Self Help and Digital Policy Blog: &raquo;<A HREF="http://jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/" >jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/</A><br></small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:26:08 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27906373</link>
<description><![CDATA[resa1983 posted : I'm just going to respond to a few different things.. Excuse the mess. :)<br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/657192" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=657192');">nitzguy</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1536091" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1536091');">resa1983</a>:</said><p>They specifically asked for it to be handed over in Excel format.<br> </p></div>What if TSI doesn't use Microsoft Excel in their business, perhaps they can hand it over in CSV format? ;).  Or OpenOffice.org format?....<br><br>I mean they can't force a company to hand over data in a certain way....also if I was TSI I'd make it difficult, and I feel like I could do that in an excel format even ;).  <br> </p></div>TSI has a legal obligation to ensure that Voltage places the same safeguards on the information that TSI does.  TSI can refuse to disclose the information (even under a court order) until the safeguards are in place.  Once they are in place any court order must be upheld.  If TSI uses a certain type of encryption, data separation, user access controls, etc then so must Voltage.<br> </p></div>The only problem is, the last 2 copytroll cases (1 which was Voltage in Fall 2011, 1 which was NGN Fall 2012), the courts accepted the plaintiff's request as to the format of the information, and ordered it as such.  So there is some history here already.<br><br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p>One thing I do know:  If the motion for disclosure is denied, TSI damn well better request some serious costs for notifying it's customers and all the other costs they had to endure.<br> </p></div>They will be requesting remuneration for their costs.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Whatever that amount may be.<br><br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1775260" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1775260');">funny</a>:</said><p>NOW TSI might collect incidental data on usage and for congestion/networking purposes BUT no where did i sign anything stating that upon request of any 3rd party for whatever reason my data can be hap hazzardly handed over. NOW of course there are exceptions to this and one is when a warrant is issued and ill add that is a police matter not a 3rd party matter and the 3rd party and voltage should then hand over data to the police and let them obtain a warrant....<br> </p></div>This has been tested extensively, with a bunch of defamation suits.<br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/7533807/phil-mickelson-files-lawsuit-find-source-defamation" >espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/7533&middot;&middot;&middot;famation</A>   resulted in   &raquo;<A HREF="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tzQrTURrgrYJ:www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/mickelson_wins_lawsuit_against_anonymous_blogger+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a" >webcache.googleusercontent.com/s&middot;&middot;&middot;irefox-a</A><br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://zvulony.ca/2012/articles/internet-law/anonymous-defamation-postings/" >zvulony.ca/2012/articles/interne&middot;&middot;&middot;ostings/</A><br><br>Geist himself even wrote about this:<br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5955/135/" >www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5955/135/</A><br>  <BLOCKQUOTE><SMALL>quote:</SMALL><HR>In sorting out the balance, the court relied on a legal test established in 2010 Ontario defamation case that similarly involved anonymous online postings. That case identified four factors to consider: (1) Whether there was a reasonable expectation of anonymity; (2) Whether the plaintiff established a prima facie case of wrongdoing by the poster; (3) Whether the plaintiff tried to identify the poster and was unable to do so; and (4) Whether the public interest favouring disclosure outweigh the legitimate interests of freedom of expression and right to privacy of the persons sought to be identified if the disclosure is ordered.<br><br>In this particular instance, the court sided with the posters and refused to order the disclosure of their identities. Since the plaintiff (who has since indicated she plans to appeal) did not identify the specific defamatory words, she failed to establish a prima facie case of defamation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><br><br>So, lets go through the test with this case, shall we?<br>1. Reasonable expectation of privacy?  Yes.<br>2. Prima facie case of wrongdoing? Yes, until the evidence is tried anyways (which isn't required for a court order)<br>3. Plaintiff tried to identify the poster & unable to? Yes.<br>4. Public Interest favouring disclosure outweighs freedom of express & privacy... Yes.<br><br>The only thing people HAVE been able to do, is argue to stay anonymous with representation, conduct a full trial, while the judge knows who you are.<br><br>I'm sorry to say that you have no right to privacy whatsoever if libeling someone, or breaking the law (ie copyright infringement).<br><small>--<br>Battle.net Tech Support MVP</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 19:37:18 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27905885</link>
<description><![CDATA[m3chen posted : All I can say is that I strongly disagree with your reading / interpretation of R v Ward and if I were hit with this; I would file a complaint with the PrivCom as nothing about handing my information over to a third party for mass litigation is reasonable nor the intended use of keeping IP logs. <br><br>And as mentioned previously; THERE IS NO COURT ORDER AT THE MOMENT.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 15:51:41 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27905508</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : <div class="bquote"><p>[107]    The contractual provisions in this case tend to reinforce my reliance on PIPEDA as indicative of the nature of the appellant&#146;s reasonable expectation of privacy.  Like PIPEDA, the contractual terms speak both of Bell Sympatico&#146;s duty to protect the privacy of clients&#146; information and its willingness to disclose information in relation to investigations involving the alleged criminal misuse of its services.  That willingness clearly qualifies any duty of confidentiality assumed by Bell Sympatico.  While there is no single provision in the agreement or related documents that spells out Bell Sympatico&#146;s willingness to disclose information to the police as clearly as did the regulation under consideration in Gomboc, the overall thrust of the documentation is to the same effect.  In particular, the Accepted Use Policy (&#147;AUP&#148;) makes it clear that uploading or downloading child pornography is a breach of the AUP and that Bell Sympatico would &#147;offer full cooperation with law enforcement agencies in connection with any investigation arising from a breach of this AUP.&#148;  <b>That cooperation would, it seems to me, obviously extend to the disclosure of subscriber information which, by the terms of the service agreement, could be disclosed if &#147;[n]ecessary to satisfy any laws, regulations or other governmental request ... or as necessary ... to protect ... others.&#148;</b></p></div>By the privacy policy stating that it will turn over information under court order and that basic subscriber information is not considered private (name, address, phone number, email) then there's not much of a legal leg to stand on.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:34:35 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27905262</link>
<description><![CDATA[m3chen posted : @JMJimmy:<br><br>I'm really shocked that you would still read that as a legal conclusion. You either must have gotten a lawyer who gave you, in my opinion, bad legal advice, or you have somehow come to this conclusion based on some very different points in the case. <br><br>I would only agree with you that users are not entitled to privacy when being investigated for a criminal matter and the investigation is done by law enforcement. <br><br>For those interested in reading R v Ward, here's a link:<br><br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2012/2012ONCA0660.htm" >www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2&middot;&middot;&middot;0660.htm</A><br><br>Key Highlights from the conclusions of "  Is the Expectation Objectively Reasonable: The Relationship Between the Appellant and Bell Sympatico"<br><br>1.) The appellant and Bell Sympatico had a commercial relationship whereby Bell Sympatico provided a variety of services, including Internet access to the appellant for a fee.  Unlike for example a doctor-patient relationship, there was nothing inherently confidential in the relationship between Bell Sympatico and the appellant.  In the private law context, their relationship, including any obligation Bell Sympatico had to maintain the confidentiality of information provided by the appellant, was governed by the terms of the service agreement between Bell Sympatico and the appellant, related documents referred to in the service agreement, and the terms of PIPEDA.  As Gomboc demonstrates, <b>it is necessary to look at the controlling contractual and legislative provisions when determining whether a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy in information that a third party service provider has given to the police.</b><br><br>2.) Like any service provider, Bell Sympatico had a legitimate interest in preventing the <b>criminal misuse of its services</b>, particularly in circumstances where the misuse effectively constituted the <b>actus reus of a crime</b>.  That interest may be seen as purely a self-interest or, perhaps more appropriately, <b>as a form of &#147;civic engagement&#148; reflecting a corporate commitment to assist in law enforcement&#146;s struggle to rid the Internet of child pornography</b>:  see Gomboc, at paras. 41-42, Deschamps J., concurring; Slane & Austin, at p. 490.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:52:45 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27904865</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1775260" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1775260');">funny</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p>Case law is against you on this m3chen.  R v Ward set the precedent that you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy online when the ToS of the ISP allows for such disclosure.  TSI's ToS/privacy policy specifically allows for this type of disclosure.  In addition Voltage is not asking TSI to disclose your private logs, merely the customer's basic information (name/address/etc) associated with their logs.  Such information is not protected by PIPEDA.<br><br>Edit: also, good luck getting a response from privacy@teksavvy.com - 8 days and nothing.  Had TSI not been able to delay the decision until the 14th any response from them would have come too late to be of any use.<br> </p></div>in fact jimmy case law is quite the opposite the fact is till now or more recently as this type a behaviour began it has not come to light what your rights really are so they have not been tested properly.<br><br>as i said in a post before....when my doc needs info i have to sign a form to allow him access to my personal data , same with my worker and in other instances and i have to do it each time.<br>NOW TSI might collect incidental data on usage and for congestion/networking purposes BUT no where did i sign anything stating that upon request of any 3rd party for whatever reason my data can be hap hazzardly handed over. NOW of course there are exceptions to this and one is when a warrant is issued and ill add that is a police matter not a 3rd party matter and the 3rd party and voltage should then hand over data to the police and let them obtain a warrant....<br> </p></div>funny, have you even read R v. Ward?  It clearly states that contract law can trump privacy law if we agree to it.  TSI also states in it's privacy policy that such information can and will be disclosed if ordered by a court and such disclosure does not require consent or notice.  "Ordered disclosure by a court" is an intended use of the data - it doesn't have to specify every possible reason for said order.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:46:32 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27904776</link>
<description><![CDATA[JonyBelGeul posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1570351" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1570351');">JonyBelGeul</a>:</said><p>A directory is essentially a list of association between at least two data.<br><br>Name - address<br>Name - phone #<br>Name - postal code<br>Name - email<br>Name - IP<br><br>There is no directory for name/IP nor for name/email.<br> </p></div>There doesn't need to be a "Name - IP" directory.  The directory exception in PIPEDA is saying "you can't reasonably expect your name, phone number, and address to be private when it's listed right here in this public phone book"<br><br>If you requested your info be removed from the phone book or don't have a land line then that's a different story.  Facebook can also be considered a "public directory"... perhaps even Google.<br><br>So if name/phone/address are public in a given case, Voltage can request the association be made between the IP they have and said public information.  It sucks but it's legal.<br><br>The question is whether their information is solid enough to warrant a court ordering TSI to make the association.<br><br>One thing I do know:  If the motion for disclosure is denied, TSI damn well better request some serious costs for notifying it's customers and all the other costs they had to endure.<br> </p></div>If the information is public, then motion to disclose is unwarranted. If there is motion to disclose, then it is warranted, then the information is not public.<br><br>The real information is not name/IP, it's name/TSI customer at the time of the allegations whereby IP is merely one aspect of this information. In fact, the verification by TSI proved this to be the case. Some names were not customers of TSI at the time of the allegations. Neither information are public. Motion to disclose is in fact asking TSI to disclose its customers' names.<br><br>The question asked by motion to disclose is: Who's your customer?<br><br>The default answer of course is: It's none of your business.<br><br>And this is why it's critically important that you do not reveal your real name on this forum. And even if you did, the information retained by this forum (IP logs/username/pwd for example) is still not public, since it's part of DSLreports own privacy agreement.<br><br>Let's put it another way. Give us one situation where the information requested by motion to disclose is public, therefore can be obtained without motion to disclose, therefore renders motion to disclose nul and void by virtue of imposing superfluous responsibilities/costs to a third party (TSI) to collect/verify/disclose the information, therefore gives TSI reason to oppose motion and then sue Voltage for superfluous costs incurred by the very motion and subsequent opposition?<br><br>Better yet, give us one situation where TSI can prove that the information can be obtained elsewhere, therefore can disclose it without much fuss?<br><br>We can argue all we want, but these are the real tests of the privacy agreement.<br><small>--<br>My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 07:22:49 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27904667</link>
<description><![CDATA[funny posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1693691" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1693691');">m3chen</a>:</said><p>@ JMJimmy:<br><br>With regards to TS Policy on Privacy; Name, Address and IP information fall under PIPEDA as defined on the Office of the Privacy Commissioner's website:<br><br>"<i>Your personal information includes your...<br><br>&#149;	name, race, ethnic origin, religion, marital status, educational level<br>&#149;	<b>e-mail address and messages, IP (Internet protocol) address</b><br>&#149;	age, height, weight, medical records, blood type, DNA code, fingerprints, voiceprint<br>&#149;	income, purchases, spending habits, banking information, credit/debit card data, loan or credit reports, tax returns<br>&#149;	Social Insurance Number (SIN) or other identification numbers.</i>"<br><br>If you have contacted the Tek Savvy's Privacy Ombudsman and have not received a response in a timely manner (i.e 1-5 business days); I urge you to file a complaint with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and attach your original e-mail to the complaint. <br><br>As for case law (R vs Ward, see here for details: &raquo;<A HREF="http://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2012/2012ONCA0660.htm" >www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2&middot;&middot;&middot;0660.htm</A>), you should note that was a case involving child pornography. In R vs Ward "<i> police make this request following a protocol developed by the police and the ISPs, but without seeking or obtaining any prior judicial authorization. </i>". Saying that a copyright infringement case and a child pornography case are the same is stretching the word "reasonable" beyond what is actually reasonable. Here is the problem with your example of case law and where it applies in this particular unfolding case:<br><br>- <b>Voltage Pictures (an American company) is not a law enforcement agency</b>. While it has the right to protect it's intellectual property, it does not have the right to do so if it violates a Canadian citizen's privacy to do so. I would have to be busted selling pirated DVDs at a store with a computer with TSI internet service for them to have enough evidence to allege what they are alleging in their law suit and have a <b>"law enforcement agency"</b> (i.e Crown Attorney / RCMP / OPP / TPD) request the information. Requesting the information so that they can "fish" for evidence against me and use it to extort money from me with no intent to sue me (see NGN vs Does here:&raquo;<A HREF="/forum/r27749824-New-Canadian-Bittorrent-lawsuit-Who-shared-qRecoilq-">New Canadian Bittorrent lawsuit: Who shared &quot;Recoil&quot;?</A>) means I have a right to expect that my privacy will be kept by Tek Savvy as Voltage Pictures demands are unreasonable (they have NO concrete evidence against any one at this point).  <br><br>Here is what i'm proposing is a reasonable:<br><br>If a law enforcement agency contacts TS for the purpose of an ongoing investigation / lawsuit, then I would expect them to contact me and tell my that they must hand over my information due to a criminal investigation and I should saddle up with a lawyer.<br><br>If a third party request my information and my consent is not given, I would expect that unless I was already identified as a part of a lawsuit and the information was requested by the court to "develop reasonable and probable grounds to obtain a search warrant for the customer&#146;s residence and computer", such requests would be denied on the grounds that they conflict with the ISP's obligation to PIPEDA and the customer's section 8 rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If law enforcement agencies must face stringent requirements to get my private personal data, third parties must face even more stringent requirements to get at it. <br> </p></div>and the RCMP WILL go after you doing the example and they have.<br>thats my point of the differance between commercial and NON commerical infringment.<br><br>if they get the right to lump both together we all might as well start selling shit everywhere<br>i do not think that is what the govt wants nor the rcmp<br>I WILL add if i brought as say a crown attorney a case agaisnt you for first degree murder that was clearly manslaughter OR not even murder how would you feel too. the pain and suffering you'd suffer for being wrongly accused of something you did not do.<br>IVE BEEN THERE and it cost me a ton a money to clear my name.<br>In the end i had a crown attorney sounding like a crazy persona nd filled court room trying to have her justify why they would not try and get DNA on a knife...<br>case dismissed. If i had resources( and therein lies another aspec to of this ...the predatory preying on hte weak, typical of americans) i'd have gone sideways back on her, the police which were shown to lie on the stand and the person that started all of that....]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:40:31 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27904663</link>
<description><![CDATA[funny posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p>Case law is against you on this m3chen.  R v Ward set the precedent that you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy online when the ToS of the ISP allows for such disclosure.  TSI's ToS/privacy policy specifically allows for this type of disclosure.  In addition Voltage is not asking TSI to disclose your private logs, merely the customer's basic information (name/address/etc) associated with their logs.  Such information is not protected by PIPEDA.<br><br>Edit: also, good luck getting a response from privacy@teksavvy.com - 8 days and nothing.  Had TSI not been able to delay the decision until the 14th any response from them would have come too late to be of any use.<br> </p></div>in fact jimmy case law is quite the opposite the fact is till now or more recently as this type a behaviour began it has not come to light what your rights really are so they have not been tested properly.<br><br>as i said in a post before....when my doc needs info i have to sign a form to allow him access to my personal data , same with my worker and in other instances and i have to do it each time.<br>NOW TSI might collect incidental data on usage and for congestion/networking purposes BUT no where did i sign anything stating that upon request of any 3rd party for whatever reason my data can be hap hazzardly handed over. NOW of course there are exceptions to this and one is when a warrant is issued and ill add that is a police matter not a 3rd party matter and the 3rd party and voltage should then hand over data to the police and let them obtain a warrant....]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:33:42 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27904655</link>
<description><![CDATA[funny posted : PIPEDA requires private-sector organizations to collect, use or disclose your personal information by fair and lawful means, with your consent, and only for purposes that are stated and reasonable.<br><br>ALSO YOU CAN and should be told that using your private data for each purpose must have a request in writing or email ( both considered legal ) before it can be used.<br><br>my doc , my worker for disability all have to have me sign stuff to get personal information ....and do so each time. NOT a one off and go ahead for ever.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:26:32 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27904310</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : Very well written article by Howard Knopf.  Yes, protecting customers' privacy is part of Teksavvy's job, but I have a feeling that  Teksavvy will roll over on Monday.  It would be so sad if that happens.  We will know after two days. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:14:20 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27904371</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1570351" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1570351');">JonyBelGeul</a>:</said><p>A directory is essentially a list of association between at least two data.<br><br>Name - address<br>Name - phone #<br>Name - postal code<br>Name - email<br>Name - IP<br><br>There is no directory for name/IP nor for name/email.<br> </p></div>There doesn't need to be a "Name - IP" directory.  The directory exception in PIPEDA is saying "you can't reasonably expect your name, phone number, and address to be private when it's listed right here in this public phone book"<br><br>If you requested your info be removed from the phone book or don't have a land line then that's a different story.  Facebook can also be considered a "public directory"... perhaps even Google.<br><br>So if name/phone/address are public in a given case, Voltage can request the association be made between the IP they have and said public information.  It sucks but it's legal.<br><br>The question is whether their information is solid enough to warrant a court ordering TSI to make the association.<br><br>One thing I do know:  If the motion for disclosure is denied, TSI damn well better request some serious costs for notifying it's customers and all the other costs they had to endure.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:03:47 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27903644</link>
<description><![CDATA[jkoblovsky posted : Howard Knopf just posted an excellent post on TSI's possible responsibilities under PIPEDA in this case:<br><br>Voltage Pictures Mass Litigation: What is Teksavvy's Task? <br><br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://excesscopyright.blogspot.ca/2013/01/voltage-pictures-mass-litigation-what.html" >excesscopyright.blogspot.ca/2013&middot;&middot;&middot;hat.html</A><br><small>--<br>My Canadian Tech Podcast: &raquo;<A HREF="http://canadiantechnetwork.podbean.com/" >canadiantechnetwork.podbean.com/</A><br>My Self Help and Digital Policy Blog: &raquo;<A HREF="http://jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/" >jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/</A><br></small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:24:57 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27903549</link>
<description><![CDATA[JonyBelGeul posted : It just occurred to me that if you specifically requested the maintainer of a directory to not put your name/address/phone on it, then this information is now private and not available through that directory, therefore is covered by the privacy agreement, and cannot be disclosed without your consent, since the privacy agreement specifically states "available through directories".<br><small>--<br>My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:53:04 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27903527</link>
<description><![CDATA[JonyBelGeul posted : A directory is essentially a list of association between at least two data.<br><br>Name - address<br>Name - phone #<br>Name - postal code<br>Name - email<br>Name - IP<br><br>There is no directory for name/IP nor for name/email.<br><small>--<br>My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:42:15 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27903516</link>
<description><![CDATA[JonyBelGeul posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p>Again, you're ignoring the R v Ward precedent.  The major difference between R v Ward and previous rulings was that the judge took into account contract law.  The justice determined that because of Bhell's ToS their customers have no reasonable expectation of privacy from law enforcement or otherwise.  Read Teksavvy's ToS and privacy policy.  They've got the right to disclose the information (name, address, phone number, and possibly email address) without needing a court order or consent.  The fact that they are insisting on a court order is admirable.<br><br>Re: filing a complaint over no response... I'll let it slide seeing as Marc has personally addressed my concerns about the lack of response and I expect a call shortly to get the issue sorted.  Way way above and beyond.  I could not be more impressed with Teksavvy and how they've handled the issue.  I'd hate to be a Bhell/Robbers/Cogeco customer right now (or ever).<br> </p></div>Actually, the privacy policy is clear. No, TSI does not have the right to disclose information which is not available through directories. IP is not available through directory, nor is the name/IP information available through directory.<br><small>--<br>My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:37:50 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27903489</link>
<description><![CDATA[m3chen posted : @JMJimmy:<br><br>Interestingly enough I took the time to review what you said about R v Ward establishing the precedence that contract law can supercede PIPEDA. I've looked up the case and it appears the judge only made the judgment because of the following reasons:<br><br>1.) The trial judge focussed his analyses on three factors.  First, he noted that the <b>requests for assistance made by the RCMP</b> and Bell Sympatico&#146;s cooperation with <b>those requests conformed to the federal legislation governing disclosure of customer information to law enforcement by private sector organizations</b> such as Bell Sympatico.<br><br>*Note: No such arrangement exists for third party organizations requesting private information.<br><br>2.)   Second, the trial judge referred, at some length, to the terms of the service agreement between the appellant and Bell Sympatico, and the documents related to that service agreement.  That agreement addressed both Bell Sympatico&#146;s commitment to maintaining the confidentiality of client information, and its willingness to disclose client information to law enforcement authorities in connection with criminal investigations involving allegations of the criminal misuse of Bell Sympatico&#146;s services.<br><br>*Note: Once again note that this specifically refers only to law enforcement and criminal investigations. Copyright right enforcement in a civil case would not apply in terms of case law. <br><br>I should also add, I read up on the PrivCom website and found no case saying that R v Ward allowed  PIPEDA to be superceded.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:29:26 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27848424</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by hm :</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p>Except for:<br> </p></div>You are misinterpreting PIPEDA here.<br> </p></div>R v Ward established that contract law can supersede PIPEDA.  By including the "does not limit" clause in relation to basic personal information that can be found in a directory (which is a rather broad term) Teksavvy can disclose the information, without a court order or consent.  <br><br>If a company puts something in their terms of service which says "we're going to track and disclose everything you do" they can.  Google effectively does.  They track every click, every search, and disclose it to their advertisers.  They can do it because we agree to it by using their service.<br><br>The problem with the way things have gone is really "hostile contracts".  They're used everywhere and while they removed a lot of red tape for businesses, they effectively destroyed any rights/bargaining power consumers had.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2012 03:58:47 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27848414</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/657192" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=657192');">nitzguy</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1536091" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1536091');">resa1983</a>:</said><p>They specifically asked for it to be handed over in Excel format.<br> </p></div>What if TSI doesn't use Microsoft Excel in their business, perhaps they can hand it over in CSV format? ;).  Or OpenOffice.org format?....<br><br>I mean they can't force a company to hand over data in a certain way....also if I was TSI I'd make it difficult, and I feel like I could do that in an excel format even ;).  <br> </p></div>TSI has a legal obligation to ensure that Voltage places the same safeguards on the information that TSI does.  TSI can refuse to disclose the information (even under a court order) until the safeguards are in place.  Once they are in place any court order must be upheld.  If TSI uses a certain type of encryption, data separation, user access controls, etc then so must Voltage.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2012 03:41:13 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27843774</link>
<description><![CDATA[TwiztedZero posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by jamesll :</said><p>Visicalc on 200K floppies?<br> </p></div>ROFL, now that'd be 'nice', some obsolete format thats nolonger in widespread use anywheres. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:52:14 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27843766</link>
<description><![CDATA[tired posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/657192" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=657192');">nitzguy</a>:</said><p>....also if I was TSI I'd make it difficult, and I feel like I could do that in an excel format even ;).  </p></div>You know you can embed GIFs in Excel, right? ;)]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:51:18 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27843695</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : Visicalc on 200K floppies?]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:50:36 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27843677</link>
<description><![CDATA[nitzguy posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1536091" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1536091');">resa1983</a>:</said><p>They specifically asked for it to be handed over in Excel format.<br> </p></div>What if TSI doesn't use Microsoft Excel in their business, perhaps they can hand it over in CSV format? ;).  Or OpenOffice.org format?....<br><br>I mean they can't force a company to hand over data in a certain way....also if I was TSI I'd make it difficult, and I feel like I could do that in an excel format even ;).  ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:25:01 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27843634</link>
<description><![CDATA[m3chen posted : Just to highlight a point that to help raise awareness while there still is time; <b> TSI Marc has stated that there currently is no court order at this time (December 20)  to release the data</b>. <br><br>Please follow HM advice of seeking the following from TS's Privacy Ombudsman:<br><br>However, people have a right to know <br><br>1.) What TSI has on file, <br>2.) What exact information will be given, <br>3.a) What the logs actually show, <br>3.b) To actually see these logs and information, <br>3.c) To find out from Voltage Pictures who they are sharing your info with,<br>4.a)  How Voltage will safeguard and protect it, <br>4.b)  If you information is leaving the country or staying with some Toronto law firm<br><br>While I'm currently speaking with a friend who is a lawyer about the ramifications of giving notice to TS about not consenting to the disclosure of data. I, at the time, do not believe it will hurt you at a later date if this whole mess actually ends up in individual lawsuits. In fact it will provide most of the alleged copyright infringers with something to work with in regards to the manner in which their privacy rights were violated. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:10:16 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27840273</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1568254" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1568254');">JMJimmy</a>:</said><p>Except for:<br> </p></div>You are misinterpreting PIPEDA here.<br>a) this is not the phone book instance<br>b) this is not a business address.<br>c) it gives rise to liability<br><br>The PrivCom website mentions exemptions, and in this case this is not an exemption.<br><br>In addition to the above, where info is given that can give rise to liability (either party, as is the case here) then they have the obligation (which TSI has "mostly already performed, BTW. Except for those they stated they haven't had the time to contact).<br><br>So no, barring a court order.<br><br>It's heavy reading and going through it all may take a few days, but you can read it all on privcom.<br><br>In addition, there is a very big black hole that has opened up due to the fact the harper gov updated laws incompletely (their words). Still to come out is notice-on-notice some time next year. PrivCom is the perfect place to bring this up.<br><br>We pay privcom's salary for this and to ask questions to them. So if people are just going to ignore privcom yet pay for them, then there is this BMW i've been looking at that you can pay for as well. Doesn't matter to me which model, just buy me a frigging BMW. thanks. It will be cheaper than what we pay PrivCom annually, plus you don't use privcom it seems. So stop paying taxes too while you're at it :p]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:06:04 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27840297</link>
<description><![CDATA[m3chen posted : BTW some disclosure: I'm not one of the people named in the suit.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:53:01 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27840223</link>
<description><![CDATA[Baraka posted : &raquo;<A HREF="http://canlii.ca/en/on/oncj/doc/2008/2008oncj355/2008oncj355.html" >canlii.ca/en/on/oncj/doc/2008/20&middot;&middot;&middot;355.html</A><br><br>Oh yeah, R. v. Ward. Yet another kiddie porn case where privacy rights were gutted for the rest of us. It's funny (maybe the wrong word) how copyright trolls continually try to conflate file sharing with child pornography. If you look at Voltage's legal filings so far, they cite two specific cases, R. v. Ward being one of them, where courts in Ontario and Saskatchewan ruled that internet subscribers have no reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to their IP addresses. Both kiddie porn cases, of course. Almost all of Voltage's legal argument for obtaining TekSavvy's customer information rests on these two cases, in fact.<br><br>I guess if you want to follow the law these days and gain a reasonable expectation to privacy, you must become an outlaw (in most parts of the world) and pay for it. That means subscribing to a VPN service. I wonder how long it'll be before those are outlawed too, based on some future kiddie porn cases? Or maybe terrorism? Always beware when you hear a politician say, "it's for The Children", or "it's to keep us safe from The Terrorists".]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:25:26 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27840222</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : Except for:<br><br><div class="bquote"><p>  The Privacy Policy does not impose any limits on the collection, use or disclosure of the following information by the TekSavvy Companies:<br><br>(i)    information that is publicly available, such as a customer's name, address, telephone number and electronic address, when listed in a directory or made available through directory assistance; or<br><br>(ii)   the name, title or business address or telephone number of an employee of an organization.</p></div>Electronic address is iffy because what constitutes a directory for email addresses?  If it comes up in a google search that may be enough.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:24:57 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27840194</link>
<description><![CDATA[m3chen posted : @ JMJimmy:<br><br>With regards to the R v Ward precedent; it only applies to law enforcement pursuing a lawsuit against an individual in a criminal case. The precedent in R v Ward only applies to law enforcement seeking to gain information in criminal case involving an on-going investigation. Having said that I believe that the courts / a judge will decide whether or not this information will be given out; so far this has not yet happened. This case has no precedent as they are attempting to find information about unknown individuals in a civil case (hint: fishing for evidence). Neither of us is a lawyer but we're both voicing out opinions on how TSI should be protecting our privacy; I'm pushing for people to be proactive in protecting their privacy from known extortionist.  <br><br>Here an excerpt from TS Privacy Policy:<br><br><i> In certain circumstances personal information can be collected, used or disclosed without the knowledge and consent of the individual. For example, the TekSavvy Companies may collect or use personal information without knowledge or consent if it is clearly in the interests of the individual and consent cannot be obtained in a timely way, such as when the individual is a minor, seriously ill or mentally incapacitated.<br><b>The TekSavvy Companies may also collect, use or disclose personal information without knowledge or consent if seeking the consent of the individual might defeat the purpose of collecting the information such as in the investigation of a breach of an agreement or a contravention of a federal or provincial law.</b><br>The TekSavvy Companies may also use or disclose personal information without knowledge or consent in the case of an emergency where the life, health or security of an individual is threatened.<br><b>The TekSavvy Companies may disclose personal information without knowledge or consent to a lawyer representing the TekSavvy Companies, to collect a debt, to comply with a subpoena, warrant or other court order, or as may be otherwise required by law.</b></i><br><br>These are the only lines that would cause TSI to disclose any of their customer's private information. See below for more:<br><br>@Shepd:<br>At this current time this is a civil case and <b>there is no court order to disclose the data</b>.  What I'm getting at is that there are grounds for Tek Savvy to not disclose the data due to privacy concerns and the Judge should be made aware that the "Does" in the case do not consent to their information be given away on hearsay evidence. Voltage Pictures evidence of "forensic investigation revealing the "Internet Protocol Address" of the allege copyright infringees" is nothing more than hearsay in it's current state and has not been tested in court. No expert has reviewed this "forensic investigation" to be legally valid and it is an assertion that needs to be addressed before any data is to be handed away. Imagine what will happen if someone was incorrectly sued because TS gave Voltage Pictures the private information of a customer based on flawed / incorrect evidence. Do you not think they'll sue the pants off of TS?<br><br>@HM: <br> <br>That's a very good idea and one I recommend people affected by this lawsuit follow up on. Since their data has not yet been given away, I highly recommend contacting TS to let them know of their obligations to PIPEDA and that they do not give consent (even if their data is given away anyways without consent, at least the record will show that the users protested their rights being violated). It would also be wise for anyone with legal counsel to have this information provided to their lawyer if they have gotten that far.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:13:55 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27840170</link>
<description><![CDATA[Guspaz posted : Any concerns about information disclosure under PIPEDA would happen before the court order is issued. They may be grounds to deny Voltage's motion of discovery... But once the motion is granted and the court orders disclosure, it's too late for TekSavvy to talk about PIPEDA.<br><small>--<br>Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc &raquo;<A HREF="http://fixppp.org" >fixppp.org</A></small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:01:52 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839936</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/933870" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=933870');">shepd</a>:</said><p>I am quite certain if TSi refuses to follow a court order<br> </p></div>No one is stating this.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:52:12 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839896</link>
<description><![CDATA[shepd posted : I am quite certain if TSi refuses to follow a court order to hand out information for any reason, even because a user follows this advice and TSi believes them, TSi will not only get slapped with a contempt of court charge, but they will end up being served with an Anton Piller order and thus out of business before the end of the day.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:53:47 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839894</link>
<description><![CDATA[bt posted : Sounds about right for TSI's responsibilities.<br><br>I have no idea when it comes to Voltage (& Co.), though.  It's definitely an interesting question.  At the very least, it'd be entertaining to see them get flooded with PIPEDA requests if the list of contact info does get released to them.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:53:35 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839665</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1756957" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1756957');">mattvmotas</a>:</said><p>The Privacy Act does not override a court order.  You are taking an excerpt out of context.  If a court orders TSI to produce the information then that is an overriding legal requirement that supercedes the Privacy Act.<br> </p></div>No. You're right.<br><br>However, people have a right to know what TSI has on file, What info will be given, what the logs actually show, to actually see these logs and info, to find out from voltage who they are sharing your info with, how Voltage will safeguard and protect it, if you info is leaving the country or staying with some Toronto law firm, on and on and on.<br><br>Marc has 30-days to reply, and even with a reply you can file with privcom. Then TSI has to reply again (so reply twice).<br><br>Not 100% sure, but the same can be done with voltage.<br><br>2300 X 2, as a minimum for TSI<br><br>2300 x 2, as a minimum for voltage (or their Canadian law firm)<br><br>And there is no cost or a very minimal cost (5 to 20$) to do this.<br><br>Nothing stops this. This is the basics rights under PIPEDA, is it not? I believe it is.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:49:16 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839498</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1750092" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1750092');">Samgee</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1693691" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1693691');">m3chen</a>:</said><p> unless under reasonable terms<br> </p></div>I am quite certain that a court order would fit this definition.<br> </p></div>Yes. But these are things Ontario users should have done on the first breaking news of this.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:47:55 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839839</link>
<description><![CDATA[bt posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1693691" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1693691');">m3chen</a>:</said><p>Here is what i'm proposing is a reasonable<br> </p></div>That <i>is</i> reasonable... but it's not current reality.<br><br>An issued court order based on a request from a private party in a civil matter carries the same weight as an issued court order based on a request from a law enforcement agency in a criminal matter.<br><br>Voltage doesn't have the legal authority to force TSI to hand over that information - but the Courts do.<br><br>Nor does it matter what nationality the company in question is.  Canadian companies don't have more rights under our new Copyright laws than companies from other countries.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:38:45 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839832</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : Again, you're ignoring the R v Ward precedent.  The major difference between R v Ward and previous rulings was that the judge took into account contract law.  The justice determined that because of Bhell's ToS their customers have no reasonable expectation of privacy from law enforcement or otherwise.  Read Teksavvy's ToS and privacy policy.  They've got the right to disclose the information (name, address, phone number, and possibly email address) without needing a court order or consent.  The fact that they are insisting on a court order is admirable.<br><br>Re: filing a complaint over no response... I'll let it slide seeing as Marc has personally addressed my concerns about the lack of response and I expect a call shortly to get the issue sorted.  Way way above and beyond.  I could not be more impressed with Teksavvy and how they've handled the issue.  I'd hate to be a Bhell/Robbers/Cogeco customer right now (or ever).]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:36:03 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839827</link>
<description><![CDATA[TwiztedZero posted : Well said,  m3chen <A HREF="/useremail/u/1693691"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A>! <IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/vbull_coll/icon14.gif"> ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:34:01 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839794</link>
<description><![CDATA[m3chen posted : @ JMJimmy:<br><br>With regards to TS Policy on Privacy; Name, Address and IP information fall under PIPEDA as defined on the Office of the Privacy Commissioner's website:<br><br>"<i>Your personal information includes your...<br><br>&#149;	name, race, ethnic origin, religion, marital status, educational level<br>&#149;	<b>e-mail address and messages, IP (Internet protocol) address</b><br>&#149;	age, height, weight, medical records, blood type, DNA code, fingerprints, voiceprint<br>&#149;	income, purchases, spending habits, banking information, credit/debit card data, loan or credit reports, tax returns<br>&#149;	Social Insurance Number (SIN) or other identification numbers.</i>"<br><br>If you have contacted the Tek Savvy's Privacy Ombudsman and have not received a response in a timely manner (i.e 1-5 business days); I urge you to file a complaint with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and attach your original e-mail to the complaint. <br><br>As for case law (R vs Ward, see here for details: &raquo;<A HREF="http://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2012/2012ONCA0660.htm" >www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2&middot;&middot;&middot;0660.htm</A>), you should note that was a case involving child pornography. In R vs Ward "<i> police make this request following a protocol developed by the police and the ISPs, but without seeking or obtaining any prior judicial authorization. </i>". Saying that a copyright infringement case and a child pornography case are the same is stretching the word "reasonable" beyond what is actually reasonable. Here is the problem with your example of case law and where it applies in this particular unfolding case:<br><br>- <b>Voltage Pictures (an American company) is not a law enforcement agency</b>. While it has the right to protect it's intellectual property, it does not have the right to do so if it violates a Canadian citizen's privacy to do so. I would have to be busted selling pirated DVDs at a store with a computer with TSI internet service for them to have enough evidence to allege what they are alleging in their law suit and have a <b>"law enforcement agency"</b> (i.e Crown Attorney / RCMP / OPP / TPD) request the information. Requesting the information so that they can "fish" for evidence against me and use it to extort money from me with no intent to sue me (see NGN vs Does here:&raquo;<A HREF="/forum/r27749824-New-Canadian-Bittorrent-lawsuit-Who-shared-qRecoilq-">New Canadian Bittorrent lawsuit: Who shared &quot;Recoil&quot;?</A>) means I have a right to expect that my privacy will be kept by Tek Savvy as Voltage Pictures demands are unreasonable (they have NO concrete evidence against any one at this point).  <br><br>Here is what i'm proposing is a reasonable:<br><br>If a law enforcement agency contacts TS for the purpose of an ongoing investigation / lawsuit, then I would expect them to contact me and tell my that they must hand over my information due to a criminal investigation and I should saddle up with a lawyer.<br><br>If a third party request my information and my consent is not given, I would expect that unless I was already identified as a part of a lawsuit and the information was requested by the court to "develop reasonable and probable grounds to obtain a search warrant for the customer&#146;s residence and computer", such requests would be denied on the grounds that they conflict with the ISP's obligation to PIPEDA and the customer's section 8 rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If law enforcement agencies must face stringent requirements to get my private personal data, third parties must face even more stringent requirements to get at it. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:26:24 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839771</link>
<description><![CDATA[JMJimmy posted : They can ask for it in any format they want, they CANNOT get it in excel format.  PIPEDA is very very clear on this issue:  TSI must ensure that any 3rd party that gets data collected by them adhere to the same level of security TSI uses to protect it's customer data.  Passing it along in unencrypted excel format is not secure at all and I'm sure TSI has much stricter systems in place.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:21:39 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839687</link>
<description><![CDATA[TwiztedZero posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1774012" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1774012');">tired</a>:</said><p>You would be much better off trying to corner your MP, pointing out what's going on, and asking if this is what they expected would happen when they passed bill C-11, and if not then WTF are they going to do to help us.<br> </p></div>+1  <IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/vbull_coll/icon14.gif"> <b>That too! Start writing your MP's, start influencing the lawmakers! Strive for Change in Canada!</b><br><small>--<br><b>IF TREE = FALL AND PEOPLE = ZERO THEN SOUND = 0</b> <br>Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six<br>Twitter = <A HREF="https://twitter.com/#!/JeeringSpectre">Twizted</a><br>Chat = <A HREF="http://goo.gl/pzvJZ">irc.teksavvy.ca</a></small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:01:19 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839661</link>
<description><![CDATA[resa1983 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/657192" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=657192');">nitzguy</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1756957" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1756957');">mattvmotas</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1693691" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1693691');">m3chen</a>:</said><p>To all TSI customers,<br><br>If the intent of the data logs was originally intended for customer support then handing it over to Voltage Pictures would constitute a violation of Tek Savvy's customer privacy as it now is being used for purpose beyond its original intent. <br><br></p></div>The Privacy Act does not override a court order.  You are taking an excerpt out of context.  If a court orders TSI to produce the information then that is an overriding legal requirement that supercedes the Privacy Act.<br> </p></div>...Not to play devil's advocate, but is there a specific way the information has to be handed over? .....If so I'd be happy to pay to get some trees cut down and for some toner ink to have it all done by paper....<br><br>I mean if TSI has to give the information over, it shouldn't have to give it over on a silver platter all nicely and neatly formed and whatnot......just give it to them as raw data....I know they could pay someone to electronically transfer it all, but its the principle I guess....<br> </p></div>They specifically asked for it to be handed over in Excel format.<br><small>--<br>Battle.net Tech Support MVP</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:55:05 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839613</link>
<description><![CDATA[nitzguy posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1756957" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1756957');">mattvmotas</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1693691" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1693691');">m3chen</a>:</said><p>To all TSI customers,<br><br>If the intent of the data logs was originally intended for customer support then handing it over to Voltage Pictures would constitute a violation of Tek Savvy's customer privacy as it now is being used for purpose beyond its original intent. <br><br></p></div>The Privacy Act does not override a court order.  You are taking an excerpt out of context.  If a court orders TSI to produce the information then that is an overriding legal requirement that supercedes the Privacy Act.<br> </p></div>...Not to play devil's advocate, but is there a specific way the information has to be handed over? .....If so I'd be happy to pay to get some trees cut down and for some toner ink to have it all done by paper....<br><br>I mean if TSI has to give the information over, it shouldn't have to give it over on a silver platter all nicely and neatly formed and whatnot......just give it to them as raw data....I know they could pay someone to electronically transfer it all, but its the principle I guess....]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:45:03 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839565</link>
<description><![CDATA[mattvmotas posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1693691" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1693691');">m3chen</a>:</said><p>To all TSI customers,<br><br>If the intent of the data logs was originally intended for customer support then handing it over to Voltage Pictures would constitute a violation of Tek Savvy's customer privacy as it now is being used for purpose beyond its original intent. <br><br></p></div>The Privacy Act does not override a court order.  You are taking an excerpt out of context.  If a court orders TSI to produce the information then that is an overriding legal requirement that supercedes the Privacy Act.<br><small>--<br>Matt</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:33:59 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839534</link>
<description><![CDATA[tired posted : Um. If a court orders TSI to hand over your information then they don't have a choice.  They have to.  Their obligations under PIPEDA were fulfilled when they told Voltage that no court order meant no information.<br><br>So there are lots of ways you can approach and fight what's going on, but this one is a dead end.  <br><br>You would be much better off trying to corner your MP, pointing out what's going on, and asking if this is what they expected would happen when they passed bill C-11, and if not then WTF are they going to do to help us.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:28:21 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839493</link>
<description><![CDATA[TSI Marc posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1597424" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1597424');">Tx</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1671447" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1671447');">pegcitynet</a>:</said><p>Poor Marc.  Stuck between a rock and a hard place.<br> </p></div>Not really...  Teksavvy once stood on a pedestal as the saviour of all consumers in Canada because they fought so hard for rights.  <br><br>Under different management now... things change i guess.<br><br>I honestly feel bad saying it. <br> </p></div>You should feel bad. I was there for every minute and agreed with every action *and helped* in each one of those actions that TekSavvy has ever taken.<br><small>--<br>Marc - CEO/TekSavvy</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:18:28 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839462</link>
<description><![CDATA[Samgee posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1693691" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1693691');">m3chen</a>:</said><p> unless under reasonable terms <br> </p></div>I am quite certain that a court order would fit this definition.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:12:56 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Teksavvy-and-PIPEDA-27839286</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1671447" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1671447');">pegcitynet</a>:</said><p>Poor Marc.  Stuck between a rock and a hard place.<br> </p></div>Not really. It's up to TSI to cost this properly and to claim costs.<br><br>It is peoples rights to do so. It would have been the first thing I would have done if I got such a letter (as I stated from the beginning).<br><br>There are basic rights under PIPEDA and basics rights to file w/ privcom under PIPEDA.<br><br>How this all comes together when faced with a motion such as this isn't my concern. Up to them (TSI & PrivCom) to spell it it out for people.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:35:15 EDT</pubDate>
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