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ISpeakForYou

join:2012-12-20

A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers

I'm going to speak on behalf of the TekSavvy customers that have not yet spoken out about this.

The first thing that needs to be addressed is that an IP address does not identify a person. This can be seen in a recent NewYork ruling under US law here: »securitywatch.pcmag.com/none/297···-lawsuit
And it's no mystery why the judge has that viewpoint.

It is absolutely unbelievable that in 2012, it is still insisted that a person can be identified based on an IP address. Every single internet connection has only 1 IP address. That means that if you live and share your internet with your family, every single computer connected to your internet network shares the exact same IP address.

Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet? Are roommates responsible for what their roommate downloads? Are people that don't secure their wireless networks suddenly responsible for a fine of up to $5000, simply because they forgot, or didn't know how to secure their WiFis? Are we supposed to allow people to be fined and labelled pirates, simply because someone hacked and downloaded something off their network?

The possibilities are endless, and it is ludicrous that the presumption of an IP address identifying a person is still around. We cannot stand for this gross injustice.

What we are here to really talk about is TekSavvy. We have been loyal customers. We have switched our friends and family over to TekSavvy, a company that we are proud to call our ISP. We stood the test of time and faith, as TekSavvy had its ups and downs. Some of us also showed our support when TekSavvy introduced its cable services. And we endured the down-times and service issues. We stood by TekSavvy, our ISP.

I can only say that we expect no less in return.

Today we are faced with new laws, and an ever increasing barrage of copyright holder attempts at legally and in most times, questionably extracting as much money from consumers, guilty or innocent, as possible. They will stop at no length to maximize their profits. And it's no secret that the system of hunting down IP addresses is catastrophically broken, as can be seen in this New Zealand article: »www.techdirt.com/articles/201210···re.shtml

And what happens when our innocent names get out in public? This opens pandora's box. What new ways will companies craft to extract money from consumers? How much will this damage innocent people's lives? All you have to do is think of how it would feel to have your name wrongfully out there for illegal file sharing.

It is not up to TekSavvy to fight these this alone, we are here, to fight right alongside TekSavvy. But we look upon TekSavvy to fight with us. We cannot fight this alone. Only together can we keep these ludicrous things at bay. And should we succeed, we will have to remain vigilant for the their next attempt.

We, the customers, expect TekSavvy to do everything in its ability to stand up for the rights and values that we, as an ISP community have always stood for. We have heard very loud and clearly, TekSavvy's decision to not oppose the motion, and we are watching. We are also well aware of the legal limitations of TekSavvy's ability to fight with us, as well as TekSavvy's continuous pursuit of informing its customers of these developments.

Should we come to the conclusion that TekSavvy did not fight with us to the best of its abilities, we will loose our once and long found admiration for an ISP that stood with us, our ISP, TekSavvy.

Make no mistake, we will cancel our service, and move to another ISP, just as we originally moved to TekSavvy.

Sincerely yours,

TekSavvy Customers


ezebob2

join:2008-06-06
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

1 recommendation

I must say you have taken some liberty in stating you speak for all of us customers! You do not speak for me! I have read through all these posts and have come to a number of conclusions:

1) most people posting have no or very little understanding and knowledge of Canadian law, some are even confusing civil and criminal law, US law, old outdated law

2) under a court order TekSavvy must produce names and ip's

3) no information has yet been turned over

4) it is the court that must decide if Voltage's request has merits, not TekSavvy, you or I

5) TekSavvy does not have any grounds to oppose the motion, they are neither judge or jury and can not decide it's merits, and are not a defendant in the case.

6) Privacy laws are over ruled by a court order

7) How Voltage will proceed with this info is not known, however they do have a history of requesting payment to avoid legal action

8) anyone caught up in this who receives a request for payment, or threat of legal action can choose to fight it in court and then can oppose the merit's or actions of Voltage and/or it's agents and partners


Curmudgeon

join:2012-04-09

1 recommendation

reply to ISpeakForYou

said by ISpeakForYou:

I'm going to speak on behalf of the TekSavvy customers that have not yet spoken out about this.

Don't presume to speak for me either. How arrogant!


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to ISpeakForYou

said by ISpeakForYou:

And what happens when our innocent names get out in public? This opens pandora's box. What new ways will companies craft to extract money from consumers? How much will this damage innocent people's lives?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. A threat free internet doesn't exist.

The internet is like anything else. You use it so you assume the RISKS.

If the internet has become such a threat to your personal safety and security then common sense would dictate you would disconnect your services and avoid it like the plague.

Otherwise, ignorance of the law is no defense in Canada. YOU are responsible for the way YOUR Internet connection is used. Any failure to supervise and control YOUR internet connection is YOUR responsibility and YOURS alone.

Time to man up and take responsibility for your actions or inaction.........


AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to ISpeakForYou

Don't speak for me either. I'm sure TSI is doing all it can do under the limitations of the act and under privacy. I'm also sure if more could be done they would do it. Past history of going to bat for customers is the best example. I have no intention on leaving TSI over any of this.
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.


crUshed420

join:2003-09-03
Blyth, ON

3 recommendations

reply to ISpeakForYou

said by ISpeakForYou:

Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet?

Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet.

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to ezebob2

said by ezebob2:

2) under a court order TekSavvy must produce names and ip's

Names yes, IPs/logs no.

said by ezebob2:

5) TekSavvy does not have any grounds to oppose the motion, they are neither judge or jury and can not decide it's merits, and are not a defendant in the case.

Actually they have grounds to oppose the motion. a) financial hardship (they may lose a good portion of those customers for various reasons) b) they could try arguing that the logs collected were not intended for use in that way (probably won't work due to application/scope) c) Voltage is likely to take the information across borders (see 6)

said by ezebob2:

6) Privacy laws are over ruled by a court order

Untrue. Privacy laws have stipulations for disclosure by court order, which still must be follow within the bounds of the privacy laws. ie: Even under court order data can't be taken across borders, must be secured to Tek's satisfaction, data can't be shared with others by Voltage, etc


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to elitefx

said by elitefx:

said by ISpeakForYou:

And what happens when our innocent names get out in public? This opens pandora's box. What new ways will companies craft to extract money from consumers? How much will this damage innocent people's lives?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. A threat free internet doesn't exist.

Actually when you look at it under the "civil rules of procedure of law" in Canada in the section 5, Joinder, this guy/girl is right.

But depending on what site you read and what interpretation, seems to me one can seek costs for being innocent and dragged in. So while damage is done, there could be financial redress. But that would cost lawyer fee's and lots of money for the average person. So it's still out of reach for the average Joe living paycheck to paycheck.

So there is some truth to what this person is saying.


CrazyCanuckz

@reliablehosting.com
reply to AkFubar

That's what the trolls want. To scare you. People need to calm down.



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to crUshed420

said by crUshed420:

said by ISpeakForYou:

Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet?

Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet.

You are assuming that the Bell supplied modem-router can block p2p, if the parent so wishes, if the parent knows how. You are assuming that a parent or grandmother knows what p2p is. You are assuming that the computer people bought for the kid, which is in their bedroom, can not be used for practically anything in this world (mom & pop would have to know). You are assuming everyone knows how to properly secure a wireless device. You are assuming everyone knows how to stop themselves from being someones b*tch (exploited).

While as a geek you may know all this (or just some of this), as a regular Joe Nobody is this a reasonable expectation for everyone to know?

Of course not.

So once again, I don't see what this person wrote as being wrong in this regard.

steevo22

join:2002-10-17
Fullerton, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·AT&T DSL Service
reply to crUshed420

said by crUshed420:

said by ISpeakForYou:

Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet?

Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet.

Irrelevant. What if an 8 year old clicks on a link and downloads kiddie porn completely innocently, by accident? Are parents now kiddie porn downloaders too? Should the parents be arrested? Should police raid their home?

No one knows who downloaded anything either P2P or not. No one. No one has the ability to find out. Using Aircrack-NG anyone can download their kiddie porn, P2P on their neighbor's WIFI.

What isps should do is only keep one day of logs, and advertise that fact. All this would stop.

A one line answer to the subpoena: No logs exist and none can be produced.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to AkFubar

said by AkFubar:

Don't speak for me either. I'm sure TSI is doing all it can do under the limitations of the act and under privacy. I'm also sure if more could be done they would do it. Past history of going to bat for customers is the best example. I have no intention on leaving TSI over any of this.

Doesn't speak for me either. That said, you cannot compare past history with TSI as then it was different management, different owner. I respect Marc but he does things differently


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to crUshed420

said by crUshed420:

said by ISpeakForYou:

Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet?

Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet.

Are you being serious? You're not a parent are you? lol. You can create a blockade all day long, if your kid are smart enough they get around all of it. I'm not going to police my kids and big brother them ann through their teenage years.

I do my best, but i'm not around them every time they touch a computer. Quit assuming parents should know how let alone be required to. You can invade your children's privacy as well, and anyone with kids knows where this goes.

graniterock
Premium
join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to ISpeakForYou

Just because TSI releases a name doesn't mean that person is guilty. The accuser still needs to demonstrate or show which specific person did the uploading and that it actually happened. Teksavvy is passing no value judgements. They'd probably rather not be involved at all but their hand is somewhat being forced. It's no secret the margins per account are slim. How much of a price increase are you willing to incur for TSI to fight this? People are ready to jump ship over $1 increases. If you want to complain to someone phone up your MP.



hm

@videotron.ca

said by graniterock:

Just because TSI releases a name doesn't mean that person is guilty. ...

Which is what this thing called "joinder" is for, to my limited understanding and interpretation of, that TSI can move on w/o being involved as to the merits of the whole thing "distribution and profiting" thing.


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
reply to Curmudgeon

said by Curmudgeon:

Don't presume to speak for me either.

Ditto. I have my own big mouth.



Mike
Expand your moderator at work


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to hm

Re: A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers

said by hm :

You are assuming that the computer people bought for the kid, which is in their bedroom, can not be used for practically anything in this world (mom & pop would have to know).

At the age of 8 I think the family computer should be in the family room / kitchen / some open area. There's too much crap on the internet, and people specifically trolling for kids, that to leave them with a computer in their room is a bad idea.

I mean, you don't toss your car keys at an 8 year old and expect them to be responsible. Kids should learn about the good (and bad) of the internet with their parents. Unlike a lot of kids when I was growing up, we had 2 TVs. Neither was in my bedroom. I pretty much got to chose what to watch on the 2nd one. However, it was in a room people walked through so they could see what I was watching.

compchris

join:2011-10-04
reply to ISpeakForYou

Seriously, who the hell do you think you are? That has to be one of the most arrogant posts I have seen surrounding this whole affair so far. I am a teksavvy customer and I do not wish to have words put in my mouth.


ByteMaster

join:2012-12-22
Halifax, NS
reply to ISpeakForYou

I am not a TekSavvy customer, but since this is a test case, the outcome will affect every Canadian ISP customer.

I don't get why TekSavvy doesn't stand up for its customers; now it's some "rightsholder" asking for names, next it's some group that disagrees with an opinion you posted and filed a (frivolous) complaint with some Human Rights Commission. Or some local politician objects to being called an idiot. Whoop, there goes the name of the one paying the bill.

Do you know why the police (here) has to either pull you over, or have a photo showing your face, when you do something in your car you're not supposed to? License plate holder is not always equal to person driving.

I want my ISP to treat my information as were it an unlisted phone number. Though were not exactly there yet, not just give in when the lowest level of judge signs a piece of paper. Giving out your customers personal information should only be done where there is absolutely no recourse left. Update your Terms of Service if you have to; include "we will do everything in our power to protect your privacy and prevent third parties from contacting you for any purpose, unless we have no legal recourse available to us from doing so". That make it breach of contract to just hand it over based on the personal opinion of Ye Local Judge in Tinytown.

Yes, it's probably easy to say hey, this internet connection is shared and I gave out my WiFi password to almost every visitor here, so I have no clue who did something, but... IT COSTS YOU TIME and maybe even money that I can spend doing the things I like.

Finally, VPN services with no logging will be The Thing To Have in 2013, and the ISP will see even more traffic go outside their own network than before, since *everything* will now go via the VPN's server.


dan157

join:2006-09-13
Hamilton, ON
reply to Tx

At my workplace I'm responsible for everyone I supervise, and if they do something they should not or heaven forbid injure themselves or someone, then the supervisor is in big trouble. He can't say 'Not my job. I'm not going to police them all day.'

It's the same with parenting. Do your job and take responsibility for the actions of your children. You're the parent and the one in charge, not them.

Expand your moderator at work

Ree

join:2007-04-29
h0h0h0
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to ISpeakForYou

Re: A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers

said by ISpeakForYou:

Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet?

Absolutely

said by ISpeakForYou:

Are roommates responsible for what their roommate downloads?

If you aren't a copyright infringer and think your roommate is, get them to put it in their name. Or sign up with separate accounts.

said by ISpeakForYou:

Are people that don't secure their wireless networks suddenly responsible for a fine of up to $5000, simply because they forgot, or didn't know how to secure their WiFis?

Personally I think this should be included as part of the install (which would help justify the insane charge). The tech should secure the wireless, and then if the customer makes changes (because they have old broken equipment that only supports WEP, or they like "god" much better as the password, or whatever), then yes I'd say the customer is responsible.

said by ISpeakForYou:

Are we supposed to allow people to be fined and labelled pirates, simply because someone hacked and downloaded something off their network?

They won't be fined and labelled pirates until after they're found guilty. If they were hacked and didn't do it, then it's not likely this will happen. Sure it'll probably be expensive to defend, and they may just opt to pay the extortion fee, but I guess I'm just a jerk when I say they should learn not to click on everything they see online!

said by ISpeakForYou:

Make no mistake, we will cancel our service, and move to another ISP, just as we originally moved to TekSavvy.

I fully intend to return to Teksavvy when I can, so you sure as hell don't speak for me.
Expand your moderator at work

graniterock
Premium
join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

1 edit
reply to ByteMaster

Re: A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers

said by ByteMaster:


Do you know why the police (here) has to either pull you over, or have a photo showing your face, when you do something in your car you're not supposed to? License plate holder is not always equal to person driving.

Correct.... but if my car is seen at a crime by a bystander the police will be coming to me with questions. Maybe the car was at the wrong place at the wrong time. But they will come knocking and ask questions.

I was involved in a hit and run. The were able to identify the likely driver because they went to the owner of car while still tracking down the person that hit me. She gave his name but they weren't able to charge him because noone actually saw him in the commotion (only the plates). However they charged her for allowing operation of a vehicle with no insurance. I hope we *don't* go this way with internet connections.

said by ByteMaster:

I want my ISP to treat my information as were it an unlisted phone number.

Might I suggest a different example? I'm pretty sure any company with a court order would hand over the name of an account owner for an unlisted phone number.

There's some pretty massive threads on these issues. Did we ever get any clarity as to why TSI keeps logs for 90 days as to opposed 3 or 7 or 30, 34.6654 or 60 days?

said by ByteMaster:


Finally, VPN services with no logging will be The Thing To Have in 2013, and the ISP will see even more traffic go outside their own network than before, since *everything* will now go via the VPN's server.

People who value privacy should take note. I've also been wondering why plain text email is still the norm even though PGP has been around since the 90s. Would have been great if they had figured out an easy way to mainstream it and implement with almost no user interaction. Really encryption should be the norm. Ditto with https as the default for webtraffic. I think there was a good article on the news page of the forum making this argument.

The internet is experiencing growing pains right now. Definitely will be interesting to see if surveillance and censoring will win out over freedom and privacy. From a policy perspective it is such a difficult one to do right. On the one hand the same tools that "we" value "good" to be in the hands of pro-democracy activists in a repressive regime, or even just to keep our banking information safe, are the same tools allow crimes to occur.

If I close my curtains because I don't people peeping on me through the window that's considered smart. If I want to encrypt and keep private *all* my internet information and traffic; that's considered by *some* to be paranoid or evidence of dishonesty.

Where is the onus however? Is it on teksavvy? A business whose business model is built upon good support, cheap prices and slim margins? It would be nice but not expected. The onus is really on us the user. We need to support (both in voice and in the pocket book) Open Media, cippic and other policy groups that seek to push policy makers in the right direction or legally intervene in these cases.


Shadow01
Premium
join:2003-10-24
Wasteland

1 recommendation

reply to ISpeakForYou

I you infringe, then you should pay the price. The world is not free. And for those that think it should be, then I would like to put you to work and I choose to pay you nothing.

On the other side, if you are clean and you get caught up in this, you need to do 2 things... You have to sue TSI and make them prove that their data was true and accurate. You also have to ask for an injunction against Voltage to give you proper time to deal with TSI in court to make sure the info used by Voltage is accurate. These 2 things will draw TSI into this deeper and it will slow down Voltage's time to get a judgement. The more people that have individual suits with TSI and Voltage will bring the entire process to a crawl. I doubt TSI's bank roll is large enough to deal with approximately 2300 suits on an individual basis. You need to start thinking in years before anything like this gets rolling good.

Expand your moderator at work

Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12
reply to Shadow01

Re: A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers

said by Shadow01:

I you infringe, then you should pay the price. The world is not free. And for those that think it should be, then I would like to put you to work and I choose to pay you nothing.

Voltage is asking $20,000 from each one of the IP's. That's $46,000,000. To put it in perspective, that is more than the total worldwide gross revenue of all the titles on their list. So while I agree that people shouldn't expect to get things for free, the same should apply to Voltage. Copyright exists to promote the creation of new works. I don't think the intention was to create a framework where the commercial success of a work is quantified mainly by the revenue brought in by suing the public.

graniterock
Premium
join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

said by Fuzzy285:

Voltage is asking $20,000 from each one of the IP's. That's $46,000,000. To put it in perspective, that is more than the total worldwide gross revenue of all the titles on their list. So while I agree that people shouldn't expect to get things for free, the same should apply to Voltage. Copyright exists to promote the creation of new works. I don't think the intention was to create a framework where the commercial success of a work is quantified mainly by the revenue brought in by suing the public.

Which considering the cap is $5000 for non-commercial liability it goes to show right off the top the legal homework they've done in prepping the is suspect. This article hypothesized a judge could choose $100.

»www.techdirt.com/articles/201212···rn.shtml

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

1 recommendation

reply to graniterock

said by graniterock:

I've also been wondering why plain text email is still the norm even though PGP has been around since the 90s. Would have been great if they had figured out an easy way to mainstream it and implement with almost no user interaction. Really encryption should be the norm. Ditto with https as the default for webtraffic. I think there was a good article on the news page of the forum making this argument.

+100
»gnupg.org/ for GNU free versions

Even a cut-down version of paid version of PGP is actually available as freeware - courtesy of a license condition the original author of PGP (Phil Zimmermann) attached to the app.
»www.symantec.com/products-soluti···cryption - choose the Corporate Desktop trialware. You'll get the full-blown commercial version free for 30 days, after which FDE and a few other function 'wrappers' will cease to function.....but the e-mail (encrypt current window & basic file encryption) will continue to function in freeware mode.

Install this if you use Firefox or Chrome >>>>> »www.eff.org/https-everywhere for automatic SSL browsing (where supported by the websites you go to - DSLr included)

Edit: don't forget about this one too »silentcircle.com/
Phil Zimmermann & Jon Callas are principals at this company
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Zimmermann
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Callas