| A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers I'm going to speak on behalf of the TekSavvy customers that have not yet spoken out about this.
The first thing that needs to be addressed is that an IP address does not identify a person. This can be seen in a recent NewYork ruling under US law here: »securitywatch.pcmag.com/none/297···-lawsuit
And it's no mystery why the judge has that viewpoint.
It is absolutely unbelievable that in 2012, it is still insisted that a person can be identified based on an IP address. Every single internet connection has only 1 IP address. That means that if you live and share your internet with your family, every single computer connected to your internet network shares the exact same IP address.
Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet? Are roommates responsible for what their roommate downloads? Are people that don't secure their wireless networks suddenly responsible for a fine of up to $5000, simply because they forgot, or didn't know how to secure their WiFis? Are we supposed to allow people to be fined and labelled pirates, simply because someone hacked and downloaded something off their network?
The possibilities are endless, and it is ludicrous that the presumption of an IP address identifying a person is still around. We cannot stand for this gross injustice.
What we are here to really talk about is TekSavvy. We have been loyal customers. We have switched our friends and family over to TekSavvy, a company that we are proud to call our ISP. We stood the test of time and faith, as TekSavvy had its ups and downs. Some of us also showed our support when TekSavvy introduced its cable services. And we endured the down-times and service issues. We stood by TekSavvy, our ISP.
I can only say that we expect no less in return.
Today we are faced with new laws, and an ever increasing barrage of copyright holder attempts at legally and in most times, questionably extracting as much money from consumers, guilty or innocent, as possible. They will stop at no length to maximize their profits. And it's no secret that the system of hunting down IP addresses is catastrophically broken, as can be seen in this New Zealand article: »www.techdirt.com/articles/201210···re.shtml
And what happens when our innocent names get out in public? This opens pandora's box. What new ways will companies craft to extract money from consumers? How much will this damage innocent people's lives? All you have to do is think of how it would feel to have your name wrongfully out there for illegal file sharing.
It is not up to TekSavvy to fight these this alone, we are here, to fight right alongside TekSavvy. But we look upon TekSavvy to fight with us. We cannot fight this alone. Only together can we keep these ludicrous things at bay. And should we succeed, we will have to remain vigilant for the their next attempt.
We, the customers, expect TekSavvy to do everything in its ability to stand up for the rights and values that we, as an ISP community have always stood for. We have heard very loud and clearly, TekSavvy's decision to not oppose the motion, and we are watching. We are also well aware of the legal limitations of TekSavvy's ability to fight with us, as well as TekSavvy's continuous pursuit of informing its customers of these developments.
Should we come to the conclusion that TekSavvy did not fight with us to the best of its abilities, we will loose our once and long found admiration for an ISP that stood with us, our ISP, TekSavvy.
Make no mistake, we will cancel our service, and move to another ISP, just as we originally moved to TekSavvy.
Sincerely yours,
TekSavvy Customers |
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Reviews:
 ·TekSavvy Cable
| I must say you have taken some liberty in stating you speak for all of us customers! You do not speak for me! I have read through all these posts and have come to a number of conclusions:
1) most people posting have no or very little understanding and knowledge of Canadian law, some are even confusing civil and criminal law, US law, old outdated law
2) under a court order TekSavvy must produce names and ip's
3) no information has yet been turned over
4) it is the court that must decide if Voltage's request has merits, not TekSavvy, you or I
5) TekSavvy does not have any grounds to oppose the motion, they are neither judge or jury and can not decide it's merits, and are not a defendant in the case.
6) Privacy laws are over ruled by a court order
7) How Voltage will proceed with this info is not known, however they do have a history of requesting payment to avoid legal action
8) anyone caught up in this who receives a request for payment, or threat of legal action can choose to fight it in court and then can oppose the merit's or actions of Voltage and/or it's agents and partners |
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| reply to ISpeakForYou
said by ISpeakForYou:I'm going to speak on behalf of the TekSavvy customers that have not yet spoken out about this. Don't presume to speak for me either. How arrogant! |
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 elitefx
join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:1 | reply to ISpeakForYou
said by ISpeakForYou:And what happens when our innocent names get out in public? This opens pandora's box. What new ways will companies craft to extract money from consumers? How much will this damage innocent people's lives? You can't have your cake and eat it too. A threat free internet doesn't exist.
The internet is like anything else. You use it so you assume the RISKS.
If the internet has become such a threat to your personal safety and security then common sense would dictate you would disconnect your services and avoid it like the plague.
Otherwise, ignorance of the law is no defense in Canada. YOU are responsible for the way YOUR Internet connection is used. Any failure to supervise and control YOUR internet connection is YOUR responsibility and YOURS alone.
Time to man up and take responsibility for your actions or inaction......... |
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 AkFubarAdmittedly, A Teksavvy Fan
join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
 ·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to ISpeakForYou
Don't speak for me either. I'm sure TSI is doing all it can do under the limitations of the act and under privacy. I'm also sure if more could be done they would do it. Past history of going to bat for customers is the best example. I have no intention on leaving TSI over any of this.
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility. |
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| reply to ISpeakForYou
said by ISpeakForYou:Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet? Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet. |
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| reply to ezebob2
said by ezebob2:2) under a court order TekSavvy must produce names and ip's Names yes, IPs/logs no.
said by ezebob2:5) TekSavvy does not have any grounds to oppose the motion, they are neither judge or jury and can not decide it's merits, and are not a defendant in the case. Actually they have grounds to oppose the motion. a) financial hardship (they may lose a good portion of those customers for various reasons) b) they could try arguing that the logs collected were not intended for use in that way (probably won't work due to application/scope) c) Voltage is likely to take the information across borders (see 6)
said by ezebob2:6) Privacy laws are over ruled by a court order Untrue. Privacy laws have stipulations for disclosure by court order, which still must be follow within the bounds of the privacy laws. ie: Even under court order data can't be taken across borders, must be secured to Tek's satisfaction, data can't be shared with others by Voltage, etc |
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 hm
@videotron.ca | reply to elitefx
said by elitefx:said by ISpeakForYou:And what happens when our innocent names get out in public? This opens pandora's box. What new ways will companies craft to extract money from consumers? How much will this damage innocent people's lives? You can't have your cake and eat it too. A threat free internet doesn't exist. Actually when you look at it under the "civil rules of procedure of law" in Canada in the section 5, Joinder, this guy/girl is right.
But depending on what site you read and what interpretation, seems to me one can seek costs for being innocent and dragged in. So while damage is done, there could be financial redress. But that would cost lawyer fee's and lots of money for the average person. So it's still out of reach for the average Joe living paycheck to paycheck.
So there is some truth to what this person is saying. |
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| reply to AkFubar
That's what the trolls want. To scare you. People need to calm down. |
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hm
@videotron.ca | reply to crUshed420
said by crUshed420:said by ISpeakForYou:Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet? Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet. You are assuming that the Bell supplied modem-router can block p2p, if the parent so wishes, if the parent knows how. You are assuming that a parent or grandmother knows what p2p is. You are assuming that the computer people bought for the kid, which is in their bedroom, can not be used for practically anything in this world (mom & pop would have to know). You are assuming everyone knows how to properly secure a wireless device. You are assuming everyone knows how to stop themselves from being someones b*tch (exploited).
While as a geek you may know all this (or just some of this), as a regular Joe Nobody is this a reasonable expectation for everyone to know?
Of course not.
So once again, I don't see what this person wrote as being wrong in this regard. |
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Reviews:
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| reply to crUshed420
said by crUshed420:said by ISpeakForYou:Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet? Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet. Irrelevant. What if an 8 year old clicks on a link and downloads kiddie porn completely innocently, by accident? Are parents now kiddie porn downloaders too? Should the parents be arrested? Should police raid their home?
No one knows who downloaded anything either P2P or not. No one. No one has the ability to find out. Using Aircrack-NG anyone can download their kiddie porn, P2P on their neighbor's WIFI.
What isps should do is only keep one day of logs, and advertise that fact. All this would stop.
A one line answer to the subpoena: No logs exist and none can be produced. |
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 Txbronx cheers from cheap seatsPremium
join:2008-11-19
kudos:3
 ·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to AkFubar
said by AkFubar:Don't speak for me either. I'm sure TSI is doing all it can do under the limitations of the act and under privacy. I'm also sure if more could be done they would do it. Past history of going to bat for customers is the best example. I have no intention on leaving TSI over any of this.
Doesn't speak for me either. That said, you cannot compare past history with TSI as then it was different management, different owner. I respect Marc but he does things differently |
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Txbronx cheers from cheap seatsPremium
join:2008-11-19
kudos:3 Reviews:
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to crUshed420
said by crUshed420:said by ISpeakForYou:Let us ask this: are parents responsible for what their 8 year old somehow downloads on the internet? Is this a trick question? Of course parents are responsible for what their children do on the Internet. Are you being serious? You're not a parent are you? lol. You can create a blockade all day long, if your kid are smart enough they get around all of it. I'm not going to police my kids and big brother them ann through their teenage years.
I do my best, but i'm not around them every time they touch a computer. Quit assuming parents should know how let alone be required to. You can invade your children's privacy as well, and anyone with kids knows where this goes. |
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 ·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to ISpeakForYou
Just because TSI releases a name doesn't mean that person is guilty. The accuser still needs to demonstrate or show which specific person did the uploading and that it actually happened. Teksavvy is passing no value judgements. They'd probably rather not be involved at all but their hand is somewhat being forced. It's no secret the margins per account are slim. How much of a price increase are you willing to incur for TSI to fight this? People are ready to jump ship over $1 increases. If you want to complain to someone phone up your MP. |
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hm
@videotron.ca | said by graniterock:Just because TSI releases a name doesn't mean that person is guilty. ...
Which is what this thing called "joinder" is for, to my limited understanding and interpretation of, that TSI can move on w/o being involved as to the merits of the whole thing "distribution and profiting" thing. |
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 dillyhammerA. Good. Start.Premium,MVM
join:2010-01-09
Hamilton, ON
kudos:9
·Start Communicat..
·Cogeco Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·Caneris
| reply to Curmudgeon
said by Curmudgeon:Don't presume to speak for me either.
Ditto. I have my own big mouth.
Mike |
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 A LurkerPremium
join:2007-10-27
Burlington, ON | reply to hm
Re: A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers said by hm :You are assuming that the computer people bought for the kid, which is in their bedroom, can not be used for practically anything in this world (mom & pop would have to know). At the age of 8 I think the family computer should be in the family room / kitchen / some open area. There's too much crap on the internet, and people specifically trolling for kids, that to leave them with a computer in their room is a bad idea.
I mean, you don't toss your car keys at an 8 year old and expect them to be responsible. Kids should learn about the good (and bad) of the internet with their parents. Unlike a lot of kids when I was growing up, we had 2 TVs. Neither was in my bedroom. I pretty much got to chose what to watch on the 2nd one. However, it was in a room people walked through so they could see what I was watching. |
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| reply to ISpeakForYou
Seriously, who the hell do you think you are? That has to be one of the most arrogant posts I have seen surrounding this whole affair so far. I am a teksavvy customer and I do not wish to have words put in my mouth. |
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| reply to ISpeakForYou
I am not a TekSavvy customer, but since this is a test case, the outcome will affect every Canadian ISP customer.
I don't get why TekSavvy doesn't stand up for its customers; now it's some "rightsholder" asking for names, next it's some group that disagrees with an opinion you posted and filed a (frivolous) complaint with some Human Rights Commission. Or some local politician objects to being called an idiot. Whoop, there goes the name of the one paying the bill.
Do you know why the police (here) has to either pull you over, or have a photo showing your face, when you do something in your car you're not supposed to? License plate holder is not always equal to person driving.
I want my ISP to treat my information as were it an unlisted phone number. Though were not exactly there yet, not just give in when the lowest level of judge signs a piece of paper. Giving out your customers personal information should only be done where there is absolutely no recourse left. Update your Terms of Service if you have to; include "we will do everything in our power to protect your privacy and prevent third parties from contacting you for any purpose, unless we have no legal recourse available to us from doing so". That make it breach of contract to just hand it over based on the personal opinion of Ye Local Judge in Tinytown.
Yes, it's probably easy to say hey, this internet connection is shared and I gave out my WiFi password to almost every visitor here, so I have no clue who did something, but... IT COSTS YOU TIME and maybe even money that I can spend doing the things I like.
Finally, VPN services with no logging will be The Thing To Have in 2013, and the ISP will see even more traffic go outside their own network than before, since *everything* will now go via the VPN's server. |
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