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kovy

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8
reply to nanook

Re: A Letter to TekSavvy from the Customers

said by nanook:

said by kovy:

What happens when the car is stolen ?

You report it to the police and insurance.

If your car was unlocked and keys in the ignition then your insurance company won't pay up and the police probably won't spend too much time looking for it. If your car was locked you stand a better chance of getting help from both.

Further, IANAL but I suspect that if your stolen car is involved in an accident then the victims are more likely to sue if the car was unlocked and keys in the ignition. In that situation the insurance company will also try to disclaim liability.

Your point?

P.S. I acknowledge that analogies usually aren't perfect, especially when extrapolated.

I don't know, maybe my IP was "stolen" used by someone else ?

Also, don't forget in the end... I have a DHCP IP adresse and not a static.


Tx
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reply to elitefx

said by elitefx:

You guys can argue till hell freezes over. What I said about the judge ruling on registered IP owner liability is true. Unless you're willing to go to court and testify against a family member or friend then the IP owner will take the fall period.

This isn't my opinion. It's the way things are done in court. Unless parliament specifically addresses this issue and changes the way liability is determined.

lmao!!

Exactly the answer i expected. The answer of someone who cannot answer, you have no answer to it and you know i have a point but you cannot answer it without agreeing to it. It may suck, it's not pretty, but it's the truth.

It's not about what the law is, it's about what is right.

Right now i have a few neighbours. 2 with WEP, 1 with nothing and another on basic WPA. I can crack all the basic WPA in an hour and WEP in 30 seconds or so. I can get each one screwed because, well they're liable.


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by Tx:

It's not about what the law is, it's about what is right.

You missed your calling. You should have been a lawyer. I truly hope legislation is written to bring your views to life in our justice system..........


Tx
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said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

It's not about what the law is, it's about what is right.

You missed your calling. You should have been a lawyer. I truly hope legislation is written to bring your views to life in our justice system..........

Again, i have to say, it's not about the law... it's about what's right and wrong. Feel free to go back and answer my question that you avoided to answer knowing there is no "right" answer to it because it's a shit end of the stick kind of deal.

Your statement that an owner of an account should be held liable then goes out the window should this owner be you. It's a scary real life situation that no one wants to be in (those who are innocent that is) and being liable under your claims is unjust.

As i said previously as well, many judges are starting to see the other side of this IP is not a person argument.

dad_of_3

join:2004-05-31
SE Ontario
reply to ISpeakForYou

Imagine your a teacher. Lets say you have a "troublesome" student in one of your classes. Lets say you fail this particular student, or give this student a detention, or some form of punishment w/e. Lets say this student decides to get revenge on you. You may wake up the next day and find your house has been egged, or toilet papered....ha, ha..an inconvienance yes, but no real harm done..However, lets say this student really wants to get some serious revenge in. What's stopping said student from sneaking into your yard at night with a laptop and connecting to your wifi (secured or not, gaining access is apparently fairly simple). What's stopping this person from downloading something incriminating through your wifi, say a voltage pictures production, or worse.

Please stop and consider the ramifications.

Now, you can replace "teacher" with "retail outlet worker", and student with "disgruntled customer", etc, etc, etc.

This is actually quite scary..To repeat what so many others have stated so many times here, the issue is not whether you "infringed" anything, but how voltage is targeting Canadians. Many innocent people will get scooped up in this trolling expedition. It could literally cost innocent people thousands of dollars to prove their innocence. In some cases this could bankrupt individuals, or at the least cause serious financial strain.



Tx
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said by dad_of_3:

Imagine your a teacher. Lets say you have a "troublesome" student in one of your classes. Lets say you fail this particular student, or give this student a detention, or some form of punishment w/e. Lets say this student decides to get revenge on you. You may wake up the next day and find your house has been egged, or toilet papered....ha, ha..an inconvienance yes, but no real harm done..However, lets say this student really wants to get some serious revenge in. What's stopping said student from sneaking into your yard at night with a laptop and connecting to your wifi (secured or not, gaining access is apparently fairly simple). What's stopping this person from downloading something incriminating through your wifi, say a voltage pictures production, or worse.

Please stop and consider the ramifications.

Now, you can replace "teacher" with "retail outlet worker", and student with "disgruntled customer", etc, etc, etc.

This is actually quite scary..To repeat what so many others have stated so many times here, the issue is not whether you "infringed" anything, but how voltage is targeting Canadians. Many innocent people will get scooped up in this trolling expedition. It could literally cost innocent people thousands of dollars to prove their innocence. In some cases this could bankrupt individuals, or at the least cause serious financial strain.

This is exactly it and what i'm trying to say. Right now i could get 3 of my neighbours in deep deep trouble right now if i wanted. usually there are more secured networks around here but right now i have 3 open networks.

One of these neighbours is a dickhead and loves being an ass with the kids around here. Oh how much trouble I could cause him if i wanted to. Maybe 20 years ago when i was much younger and found rooting boxes fun... i was stupid then, but there are still stupid kids, and disgusting individuals that will abuse another account to further their own interests/activities leaving you holding the smoking gun.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

1 recommendation

reply to ISpeakForYou

It'll probably take somebody spoofing a bunch of Federal Court judges and all the Federal cabinet ministers home IP addresses and catching them all in a kiddie porn crackdown before anything meaningful in terms of driving through the understanding that an IP address does not equal a person.



Tx
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said by MaynardKrebs:

It'll probably take somebody spoofing a bunch of Federal Court judges and all the Federal cabinet ministers home IP addresses and catching them all in a kiddie porn crackdown before anything meaningful in terms of driving through the understanding that an IP address does not equal a person.

I shouldn't even be saying this, but wouldn't that be something? To see a judge back peddle out something he just ruled against someone else?

Unfortunately these things are covered up daily if anything serious happened

cynic10

join:2011-02-05

2 edits
reply to Tx

That's the scary thing. So many of the vocal people have the thinking those who are complaining are guilty and on top of that they seem to lack knowledge in IT and how networking/internet works.

These people needs to be educated or taught a thing or 2. My neighbor wifi' is unprotected and if I'm so inclined I can use theirs and get them in trouble but I'm not like that.

This article provide an interesting read on ISPs that protested the request by copyright trolls and set precedents after having won appeal and why TSI should follow suit. Because you know the outcome of it all will affect all ISP in Canada as this being the first mass lawsuit that I'm aware of on copyrights.

»www.techdirt.com/articles/201212···ll.shtml

As the first comment by one of the user "A bunch of those tech savvy users on slashdot pointed out that TekSavvy was a good one to be with for Canada. If they are looking to destroy the good image they have with the techies, this would easily do it in a single move (or failure to move as it is)."

He couldn't have said it better.

TSI, make note. We're all reading and watching your actions all over the countries, not just Canada.


graniterock

join:2003-03-14
London, ON
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reply to dad_of_3

said by dad_of_3:

Imagine your a teacher. Lets say you have a "troublesome" student in one of your classes.

....

Replace Teacher with neighbourhood lawyer and troublesome student with creepy neighbour and you get this nightmare. This creepy neighbour spent 2 weeks cracking a wifi network and tried to ruin this guys life:

»www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/07/13/···dex.html

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to cynic10

No matter how this particular case turns out, it won't be good for Canada and Canadians.

a) Voltage wins - hundreds of thousands of Canadians get extortion letters.

b) Voltage loses - Voltage gets USTR & Congress to sanction Canada until ALL Canadian copyright legislation is exactly what the US wants it to be - including criminal penalties for even the most minor infraction.

Game, set, match to Voltage & US interests.



GermanVPN

@leaseweb.com

Surprised to see a forum warning on posting in the Tekksaavy area!

Maynard, I think b) is overstepping the reality of things, Voltage isn't Paramount pictures and I highly doubt they'll even be a blip on the radar in US Congress during this period in history.



nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
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reply to A Lurker

said by A Lurker:

So your analogy would be that someone cruises your town looking for a say... a grey honda* - write down your plate number - duplicates it, puts it on their grey honda then runs a red light. You get a ticket for running a red light (that you maybe didn't do). If you're lucky, you might be able to prove you weren't there at that time. If you're not, you are likely paying the fine.

You're way overcomplicating the analogy. There's no need to spoof anything.

Joe owns a car. His wife Sally (or his son John or their neighour Boris or anyone else who borrows the car with Joe's permission...) drives it through a red light. A red light camera captures this, reads the plate number and sends a fine to Joe. Joe is responsible for paying the fine. The system doesn't car if Joe was actually driving the car.

Joe owns an Internet account. His wife Sally (or his son John or their neighour Boris or anyone else who uses Joe's Internet account with Joe's permission...) fileshares something that Voltage considers to be piracy. A Voltage program captures his IP addres, gets a court to make his ISP provide Joe's address and and sends a fine to Joe. Today Joe can argue that it wasn't him. But suppose legislation gets enacted that analogous to the red light camera. Then Joe is responsible for paying the fine. The system doesn't car if Joe was actually using his Internet connection to fileshare Voltage's material.

Again, today the onus is on Voltage to prove that it was Joe who actually infringed on their copyright. If the copyright legislation changes to be similar to red light camera or photo radar legislation then that onus will disappear. Joe will be responsible for the allegedly illegal actions of someone else.

Tong

join:2012-12-11
r3t 38x

One more thing compare this car VS IP thing.

If someone spoof your IP or your ISP miss assign or log your IP address to someone else, you have no ways to knowing that.

If someone stolen your car, most likely you will know that right away and report to authority, then you will be off the hook.

Unless ISP or Router providers find a way to detect someone is spoofing your IP address, ISP can log your IP address 99.99% correct, I doubt some law will pass base on that.

In addition, red light camera is a civil matter, which is the same as non-commercial infringement, that's why there is a reasonable fine, I won't take my family member over a $200 fine. If someone in the house take my car and start selling drug in it, then you bet I will take them to court.

I think high voltage is seeking commercial infringement I believe commercial infringement/counterfeiter is an criminal matter which you can go to jail for. if you they are seeking that, then they need to provide proof beyond reasonable doubt. Either way, good luck with them.



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

2 edits

After reading this article from a link posted above:

»www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/07/13/···dex.html

There was this tidbit of info:

"In the data surrounding the threatening traffic, they found traffic containing "the perpetrator's" name and "ISP" account.

IMHO the IP spoofing/wifi theft excuses won't work.

About 5 years ago it was reported in the media that Microsoft developed and provided proprietary software to law enforcement across North America that tracks down cyber criminals/illegal traffic to a specific computer terminal beyond a shadow of doubt.

If Voltage has aquired a copy of this software or has developed their own then this would be a game changer.

You would literally need to prove it wasn't you at your computer at the time of the alleged offense. You would also have to testify as to who was using your computer, in your dwelling, to download the offending material. You would literally be convicting a loved one or friend to get yourself off the hook.

The above scenario is speculation BUT the Microsoft proprietary software exists and is in use today.



GermanVPN

@leaseweb.com

Uh, we know how they acquired these IP's, and it wasn't sophisticated. Voltage isn't law enforcement, Microsoft isn't going to just give them software so they can become more profitable which is why its was collected the way it was.



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

3 edits

said by GermanVPN :

Voltage isn't law enforcement, Microsoft isn't going to just give them software so they can become more profitable......

Actually, from what I've read, nobody has any specific information how Voltage retrieved the original illegal download info, just that they have it and are requesting IP verification data.

My post is merely a statement of publicly stated information and a possible scenario.

Acquire=by any means necessary..........


Tx
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said by elitefx:

said by GermanVPN :

Voltage isn't law enforcement, Microsoft isn't going to just give them software so they can become more profitable......

Actually, from what I've read, nobody has any specific information how Voltage retrieved the original illegal download info, just that they have it and are requesting IP verification data.

My post is merely a statement of publicly stated information and a possible scenario.

Acquire=by any means necessary..........

Actually they setup a torrent themselves (a trap) and collected the IPs of those. This was the info provided how they did it when this was first announced.


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

said by Tx:

Actually they setup a torrent themselves (a trap) and collected the IPs of those. This was the info provided how they did it when this was first announced.

Just an observation:

How on earth can Voltage set up a Torrent to publicly share a file and then somehow try to sue that same public when they download and share the file Voltage provided for free distribution.

That's more than entrapment, that's just completely bizarre. Sounds like a bunch of noobs just playing a game.

IMHO that's where the defense is. Nobody has done anything wrong. Voltage provided a Free copy for Free public filesharing on a Free public filesharing site.

IMHO the judge will toss this quicker than a rotten piece of fruit. Voltage's entrapment scheme and pending lawsuits will bring the administration of Canadian justice into disrepute. Something the legal system is very defensive about. Justice needs to be seen to be done fairly. The bar is set very high.


nanook
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said by elitefx:

Just an observation:

How on earth can Voltage set up a Torrent to publicly share a file and then somehow try to sue that same public when they download and share the file Voltage provided for free distribution.

Just a dumb question:

Why on earth would Voltage need to set up a torrent and resort to entrapment in order to capture the IP addresses of computers that are sharing their files? All they have to do is join existing swarms of their movies, as seeded by others, then record the IP addresses of all the connected computers. Virtually all BT clients provide this information.

What am I missing?


Tx
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reply to elitefx

said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

Actually they setup a torrent themselves (a trap) and collected the IPs of those. This was the info provided how they did it when this was first announced.

Just an observation:

How on earth can Voltage set up a Torrent to publicly share a file and then somehow try to sue that same public when they download and share the file Voltage provided for free distribution.

That's more than entrapment, that's just completely bizarre. Sounds like a bunch of noobs just playing a game.

IMHO that's where the defense is. Nobody has done anything wrong. Voltage provided a Free copy for Free public filesharing on a Free public filesharing site.

IMHO the judge will toss this quicker than a rotten piece of fruit. Voltage's entrapment scheme and pending lawsuits will bring the administration of Canadian justice into disrepute. Something the legal system is very defensive about. Justice needs to be seen to be done fairly. The bar is set very high.

Honestly this is what i read happened and i wondered the same thing.. Asking the exact same question how this isn't entrapment. I've read a few articles that this is how they managed to get so many

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to ISpeakForYou

said by ISpeakForYou:

I'm going to speak on behalf of the TekSavvy customers that have not yet spoken out about this.

The first thing that needs to be addressed is that an IP address does not identify a person. This can be seen in a recent NewYork ruling under US law here: »securitywatch.pcmag.com/none/297···-lawsuit
And it's no mystery why the judge has that viewpoint.

It is absolutely unbelievable that in 2012, it is still insisted that a person can be identified based on an IP address. Every single internet connection has only 1 IP address. That means that if you live and share your internet with your family, every single computer connected to your internet network shares the exact same IP address.

I'll agree with this. An IP address can only ID the institution who owns the net block/subnet. Residential ISP's usually assign an IP via DHCP, so that is kinda scary that they try to ID customers based on that. (unless they keep extremely good ARP records and can match up the MAC to the CPE) But since ARP records in networking devices aren't logged, I have no idea how this is done.

Anyhow, residential ISP's are lame. Companies like Teksavvy got hammered by Bell and now they need to play dirty like the big guys, and as a result they are not as innovative/customer friendly anymore.
--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X


The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON

1 edit
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by elitefx:

said by Tx:

Actually they setup a torrent themselves (a trap) and collected the IPs of those. This was the info provided how they did it when this was first announced.

Just an observation:

How on earth can Voltage set up a Torrent to publicly share a file and then somehow try to sue that same public when they download and share the file Voltage provided for free distribution.

That's more than entrapment, that's just completely bizarre. Sounds like a bunch of noobs just playing a game.

IMHO that's where the defense is. Nobody has done anything wrong. Voltage provided a Free copy for Free public filesharing on a Free public filesharing site.

IMHO the judge will toss this quicker than a rotten piece of fruit. Voltage's entrapment scheme and pending lawsuits will bring the administration of Canadian justice into disrepute. Something the legal system is very defensive about. Justice needs to be seen to be done fairly. The bar is set very high.

Honestly this is what i read happened and i wondered the same thing.. Asking the exact same question how this isn't entrapment. I've read a few articles that this is how they managed to get so many

There is no such thing as entrapment in civil law. Entrapment is a concept outlined in criminal law, and it only applies to the actions of police officers.

That's not to say a judge couldn't rule that voltage basically gave away their product, but since it's the uploading of the torrent (not the downloading) that is at the core of the complaint, I don't think it's likely that this would be considered relevant.


Tx
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said by The Mongoose:

There is no such thing as entrapment in civil law. Entrapment is a concept outlined in criminal law, and it only applies to the actions of police officers.

That's not to say a judge couldn't claim that voltage basically gave away their product, but since it's the uploading of the torrent (not the downloading) that is at the core of the complaint, I don't think it's likely that this would be considered relevant.

Have to admit though, it would be an interesting argument, no?

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON

said by Tx:

said by The Mongoose:

There is no such thing as entrapment in civil law. Entrapment is a concept outlined in criminal law, and it only applies to the actions of police officers.

That's not to say a judge couldn't claim that voltage basically gave away their product, but since it's the uploading of the torrent (not the downloading) that is at the core of the complaint, I don't think it's likely that this would be considered relevant.

Have to admit though, it would be an interesting argument, no?

I think if the downloading were the source of complaint it could work...the uploading is going to be tougher. I still think the core argument in the context of Canadian civil law has to be the simple one: That the alleged infringement is not severe enough to justify the violation of privacy. The law requires that the alleged violation meets this test, and I think it can be demonstrated that it fails.

We'll see what tack CIPPIC chooses to take.


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

said by The Mongoose:

I think if the downloading were the source of complaint it could work...the uploading is going to be tougher.

Agreed. One could argue that the file that Voltage made available for Free download is simply a copy of a copy of a copy, and that without a notice included in the torrent download to the contrary, users taking advantage of this Free offering would be completely unsure whether the version they received, and consequently shared, was a demo copy with the copyright restriction/protection removed.

The benefit of an issue of doubt in a court case always goes to the defendant.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
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join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

You'd have thought Voltage in their wisdom would've just added in a copy of their Letter of Extortion along with the downloads. Oh gee.



nanook
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join:2007-12-02
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1 recommendation

reply to ISpeakForYou

Bunch of hypocrites: Hollywood Studios Caught Pirating Movies on BitTorrent

quote:
New data uncovered by TorrentFreak shows that the MPAA might want to start in-house, as plenty of copyrighted material is being shared by employees of major Hollywood studios. With help from BitTorrent monitoring company Scaneye we found that BitTorrent piracy is rampant in Hollywood.

Let’s take a look at some of the files these Hollywood studios are sharing, starting with Paramount Pictures.

Keep in mind that what we show here is just a small fraction of the files that are actually being shared. It’s the tip of the iceberg...

Ray_A

join:2008-10-28
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

No mater the case, it is the right idea, never let younger kids have computers in their own rooms

As if this will solve the problem!....Their computers are in their pockets these days, they are called smartphones, with access to everything the internet has to "offer" and possibly using their parent's WIFI connection at home. At school or street they may just be using their wireless data plan which incidentally happens to be on their parent's account too.

velocity7

join:2009-05-20
reply to ISpeakForYou

OP: Don't speak for me either, thanks.