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Anon

Question about legality of job offering

Hi,

I'm a member here, but in an effort to keep anonymity, I am here anonymously. I have a question that relates to a job offering at my existing place of employment and the issue of "favoritism" and any recourse I may have. If you have experience in this, please read on. If you have no experience in this, offer constructive comments and conjecture, but I will not let this turn into some sort of bizarre pissing contest.

background
I work for a large, national company with many branch offices. In our branch office, the Branch Manager recently retired. One of the lower Managers (let's call him Mr. M) moved from his middle-management position to Branch Manager. Mr. M's supervisor, (we'll call her Ms. K) moved to Manager. Now, the vacant position is the Supervisor, which Ms. K is no longer. Ms. K will be the person in charge of hiring for her old position.

It has come to my attention that Ms. K had someone in mind (internally) for this position, and had told this person about the position before any internal or external staff was told about it. Additionally, on a gut feeling, I happened to find the requisition for the job opening the same day on the corporate website, which no internal staff really looks at. As I approached Mr. M., he squirmed a bit and said he "didn't know" if he had to announce the job opening. He checked with HR, and I guess HR said he had to, as an email followed the next morning announcing the position.

Here is my question:
Is it illegal (in NY State, or in any state) for one employee to be told about a position and "groomed" for it, without telling anyone else. I am sure that had I not mentioned the listing of the job on the corporate website that the email from Mr. M about the position would never have gone out to the entire staff, and one day soon I would have come in to find a new supervisor, unchallenged.

Is this legal? The other issue is that it's a clear issue of favoritism. The person who was "groomed" is a close friend of Ms. K, but less capable than the other applicants, in both experience, education, and computer skills. I was able to expose the job offering, enabling many qualified people to interview for it (including myself) but it appears the less-qualified favorite will get the job.

What are my legal steps to take from here, if any? Before anyone gets too crazy, I am not some crazy, loose canon. I'm just looking for a fair share for everyone who might be eligible for the position. I think I achieved that part, but it still looks like "the fav" will win the race.

It has become quite clear to me that based on the decisions this company makes, I should seek employment elsewhere. In the meantime, I'd like to see what I can do to the fullest extent of the law to kind of throw a wrench in things where I have the capacity and legal footing to do so.

Thanks for your time.
AsherN
Premium Member
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

AsherN

Premium Member

Internal promotions/appointments do not need follow labour law. While a lot of organization have a policy of advertising open position internally first, it is not a legal requirement.

What i shappening may suck, but you have no legal recourse. You may be able to raise the issue with HR if you are interested in the position and are sure that you are more qualified than th perrson getting the job, but that's it.

John Galt6
Forward, March
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join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6 to dasds

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You probably have no recourse.

Management can typically hire whoever they want, for whatever reason, unless there are policies in place that state otherwise, or contractual obligations (union, for example). Sometimes those reasons are intangible and undefined.

Perhaps Ms. K wants someone that will kiss her ass and do what they are told, rather than a free-thinker...sounds like you don't qualify.

Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
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join:2000-09-20
Fort Worth, TX

Harddrive to dasds

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It's ethically wrong and illegal.
I have a former coworker at a former employer that is going through this exact thing. What helps him is that he has saved the three external public postings that prove the company kept changing the open position to fit the person they wanted to have the job, even though said individual was far less qualified than my former coworker.
If you know you're on the out, talk to a lawyer. But without any physical evidence (emails between manager and groomed employee or of managers discussing the open position for 'selected' employee), you're not getting anywhere. They aren't going to put the company in any kind of position where there would be a legal financial loss to the company.

jjoshua
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join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ

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jjoshua to dasds

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It's perfectly fine as long as the "favoritism" is not discriminatory.
harald
join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH

harald to dasds

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to dasds
What jjoshua said.

If you are not a member of a protected class, they can gerrymander the job description and choose whomever they wish for the position.

There is no legal obligation to be fair, but they are really shooting themselves in the foot if they are less than honorable with their employees.

There is a slim possibility that there is something in an employee's manual somewhere. Depending upon the state, etc, you may have a shot. On the other hand, should you succeed in getting the position, your life may become as living hell.

John Galt6
Forward, March
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join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

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said by harald:

On the other hand, should you succeed in getting the position, your life may become a living hell.

^^^^^

Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21

Cabal to dasds

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If you want the job, apply for it. If you're the best person for the job and they turn you down for other reasons, move on to something better.

Life's not fair, and it's certainly too short to worry about people playing power games in their own little worlds.

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
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join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0 to Harddrive

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to Harddrive
said by Harddrive:

It's ethically wrong and illegal.

It is neither you have an internal employee fully competent and ready for the job nothing wrong, not openly posting the opening.

Now its nepotism or something like that, well another matter.

But natural qualified progression, nothing wrong with that.
mocycler
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join:2001-01-22

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mocycler to dasds

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This is gonna sound real sucky, but what you describe is totally legal and there isn't a dang thing you can do about it, unless there is some internal policy on your side.

To clarify AsherN See Profile 's statement, internal hiring decisions absolutely must comply with labor laws. There is not a separate set of rules for internal vs. external. Recruiting from within does not give an employer a legal free pass to do as they please, although it is fair to say that there is an element of selectivity already built in.

Labor law is complex (especially in New York!), but the short version is that a company may not discriminate on the basis of gender, ethnicity, religion...all the usual stuff. As long as an otherwise qualified candidate is not rejected for one of those reasons, everything else, including favoritism, is fair game. Also, there is no law in New York that requires a company to advertise a job opening or notify employees when a position becomes available.

What your employer did was sloppy and unprofessional, but not illegal. So yeah, sorry, someone can be promoted because they are a management suck up, the boss's nephew/spouse/sex slave, went to a certain school, was in a certain fraternity...yadda, yadda.

mocycler is a corporate counsel attorney and (by most accounts) a decent guy


dasds
@verizon.net

dasds to Harddrive

Anon

to Harddrive
Thanks for the educated replies.

I do have some proof. I have a screenshot of our internal instant message system from another coworker who is also friends with Ms. K, and who got the position she is in now the same way; told to keep quiet about it, and she did. No one else knew of the position, no one applied and boom, she was promoted. In this instant message to me, she explains the above briefly and clearly. No idea what made her think to do this in an instant message to me, but a screenshot of it, saved to a flash drive with the file name "jackpot_confession" was my immediate next step.

I have interviewed for the position. The interview went well, as far as interviews go. I am one of the top 2 qualified for the position based on my knowledge of the internal employees that applied. The person that is likely getting it can't hold a candle to me and a second gentleman.

With that said, I don't kiss Ms. K's ass (or anyone's for that matter), and she knows that. I come in to do a job, look for problems to fix, and leave when the problems are fixed or have been addressed up to my responsibilities. This might entail a disagreement with Ms. K, as it has in the past, and for this reason, it makes it unlikely that I would be selected. The person that is being groomed does kiss her ass and is friends with her outside of the office.

By the end of the interview, I already suspected I wouldn't get the job. We spoke for 15 minutes and completely agreed how the nature of the work requires a level of internal and external objectivity and diplomacy, which we both know I'm fully capable of. It's one of my better qualities. The last 10 minutes of the interview was Ms. K telling me how she's looking for an "ally" and "someone who has her back"; both of which contradict objectivity. It was right then and there, when I realized that qualifications, a proven track record of experience with this company and with another simply don't matter. I'm never insubordinate, but I do offer alternative, better and cheaper solutions but since it's not her way, it's not the right way.

No love is lost. I still have my position, which isn't going away, and I'm paid well for it. This promotion would have been a 20-30% pay jump, along with increased autonomy and responsibilities to fix problems; I thrive on that sort of thing. The secrecey and the questionable hiring practices seem to be a pattern in this company, or at lease in this local office. The recent events have given me a good amount of clarity about the rate at which I should look for new employement.

And I agree, my life would probably be a living hell if I was offered the job and took it. My wife agreed that while the pay increase would help, it's not worth my health.

In the meantime, when the unqualified employee gets the job and within his first few weeks when he's asked to create pivot tables and get into some intricate use of formulas, I believe I am going to have a severe bout of amnesia, or at least as much amnesia as I can get away with. (The candidate-to-be is the type of guy who's personal home computer needs to be wiped and reloaded every 6 months because of his pervasive use of P2P to acquire illegal software infected with malware. His actual computer "skills" needed for the job are poor to fair, at best.)

Seems to be a mixed bag here in terms of my recourse, with "little to nothing" being the likely option, unless the proof I have is substantial enough. I don't want to create too many more problems, but I have a hard time keeping quiet over this one.

dsdaa
@verizon.net

dsdaa to mocycler

Anon

to mocycler
said by mocycler:

This is gonna sound real sucky, but what you describe is totally legal and there isn't a dang thing you can do about it, unless there is some internal policy on your side.

Labor law is complex (especially in New York!), but the short version is that a company may not discriminate on the basis of gender, ethnicity, religion...all the usual stuff. As long as an otherwise qualified candidate is not rejected for one of those reasons, everything else, including favoritism, is fair game. Also, there is no law in New York that requires a company to advertise a job opening or notify employees when a position becomes available.

What your employer did was sloppy and unprofessional, but not illegal.

Thanks for the reply. I have seen you give good advice here before, so thanks to you also chiming in on this thread.

Well, at least I gave it an effort. I applied, am in control of my own destiny and choices, and gave it my best effort. Now, I guess I'll just sit back and watch the promoted employee fail. This calls for a nice lawn chair and a 6 pack of some good beer. This should be fun.

Harddrive
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Harddrive

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It would be excellent if the week after they got promoted, you could take a week or two off for vacation. By what you are saying, the promoted individual would need to reach out to you for technical expertise. And with you being out on vacation...

vaxvms
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said by dasds :

The other issue is that it's a clear issue of favoritism.

Yah. So what?
The person doing the hiring/promotion will say the person who's the best fit got the job.

There's more than "qualified for the position based on my knowledge" to being the right person for the job. For example, if you can't work well with others you're not the most qualified.

dasds
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dasds

Anon

said by vaxvms:

There's more than "qualified for the position based on my knowledge" to being the right person for the job. For example, if you can't work well with others you're not the most qualified.

All of the internal applicants that I'm aware of work great with the rest of the management team and the other employees, with the exception of one. I agree with your sentiment though, it just doesn't apply here.
Bob4
Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

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It's perfectly legal and is standard operating procedure at many companies. If you change jobs, you'll likely find the new company does the same thing. If you make a fuss, you might find yourself blacklisted for further promotions.

The best thing to do is to keep aware of goings on and tactfully lobby for your desired job opportunities.

EDIT: Even better if you can get a respected person to put in a good word for you from time to time.

EDIT 2: And get yourself invited to meetings regarding personnel assignments.

JustBurnt
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JustBurnt to dasds

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Unless you are a member of a protected class and are being discriminated against for that reason there is NOTHING illegal about what they are doing.

IF it is a union shop AND you are part of it they must follow procedures in the contract.

Otherwise they can hire whomever they want for any position, qualifications are up to the person doing the hiring.

Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21

Cabal

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said by JustBurnt :

IF it is a union shop AND you are part of it they must follow procedures in the contract.

Nothing quite like seeing the incompetent promoted to management because they've been around longer.

Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
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Harddrive

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They do that in the military. Promote the idiots to keep them from working on the gear.
mocycler
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mocycler to dasds

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said by dasds :

I do have some proof. I have a screenshot of our internal instant message system from another coworker who is also friends with Ms. K, and who got the position she is in now the same way; told to keep quiet about it, and she did. No one else knew of the position, no one applied and boom, she was promoted. In this instant message to me, she explains the above briefly and clearly. No idea what made her think to do this in an instant message to me, but a screenshot of it, saved to a flash drive with the file name "jackpot_confession" was my immediate next step.

I know this is the internet, so take this legal advice any way you choose:

Be careful when digging around for inside scoops because divulging company records (and IM's are considered company records) can get you in trouble, even when they are disclosed to another employee. Nearly every company has published policies regarding "need to know"; if you are in the healthcare or banking industry it can turn into one mutha of a legal shitstorm.

It is a little funny that this person presumably "kept quiet about it" yet it got around to you. Who knows who else they shot their mouth off to.

As I mentioned before, favoritism sucks but it is for the most part legal. Small family owned companies are famous for this but it can happen elsewhere too. My first job in high school was at a family owned business and all the boss's kids worked there. At least one son was about as useful as mud flaps on a battleship, and everyone, including his dad, knew it. On top of that, this turd made more money than all of us. But what to do? His old man owned the place and had the sole right to call the shots as he pleased. Unqualified morons get jobs all the time because of who they know or are related to. Networking....works.

The job you interviewed for is now so radioactive you probably would not want it even if it was offered.

Sorry things didn't go your way...good luck next time.

mocycler is a corporate counsel attorney and (by most accounts) a decent guy.
Bob4
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New Jersey

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said by mocycler:

As I mentioned before, favoritism sucks but it is for the most part legal. Small family owned companies are famous for this but it can happen elsewhere too. My first job in high school was at a family owned business and all the boss's kids worked there.

My first full-time job was working for my ex-brother-in-law. It took a couple years for someone to figure out that my sister's first name was the same as the boss' ex-wife's name.

I got my second job via a connection from my father's secretary's husband. I got my third (and current) job via former co-workers.

Hall
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Germantown, OH

Hall to mocycler

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to mocycler
said by mocycler:

I know this is the internet, so take this legal advice any way you choose:

Be careful when digging around for inside scoops because divulging company records (and IM's are considered company records) can get you in trouble, even when they are disclosed to another employee.

Depending on the IM system, it's very likely that everything done via IM is logged just like email correspondence. I would consider IM safe or confidential by any means !
Hall

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said by dasds :

In the meantime, when the unqualified employee gets the job and within his first few weeks when he's asked to create pivot tables and get into some intricate use of formulas, I believe I am going to have a severe bout of amnesia, or at least as much amnesia as I can get away with. (The candidate-to-be is the type of guy who's personal home computer needs to be wiped and reloaded every 6 months because of his pervasive use of P2P to acquire illegal software infected with malware. His actual computer "skills" needed for the job are poor to fair, at best.)

That's the best thing you can count on. When this employee needs "help", you still need to be cautious -- don't do the damn job for him because he's incapable, but on the other hand, presuming he's a superior, you pretty much have to offer some level of help!

Boricua
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Sacramuerto

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said by dasds :

Thanks for the educated replies.

Seems to be a mixed bag here in terms of my recourse, with "little to nothing" being the likely option, unless the proof I have is substantial enough. I don't want to create too many more problems, but I have a hard time keeping quiet over this one.

I work in state goverment (no secret around here) and I've seen this same as well during the past 18 years. Illegal? probably not except as noted when a protected class is discriminated against, but definitely unethical as others have said. I am like you when I see something I call on it, but throughout the years I realized sometimes it's not worth the backlash. Management can (will?) turn on you for being vocal whether you are right or wrong. As you have discussed this with your wife, she is correct it's not worth your health. Believe me, when the force of management (and the company) goes against you, it's not something I would want to be in.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Shadow01
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Your mistake was revealing the unposted job opening. If you would have let that continue, you would have had the company by the nuts. The one thing you have to understand though, is that you never want to push or force them to give you the position, because they will find a way to move you out for forcing their hand. When you go down this path, you have to do it for the suit payout and the payout alone. You will never be able to force them to give you the job and have any security after that.

dsdaa
@verizon.net

dsdaa to Boricua

Anon

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Appreciate the replies, and getting to understand all of your opinions.

It's likely, but not definite, that this "favorite" is getting the job. We'll likely know in a short time frame; a few days to a week or so. Until then, I still have a job to do, and even when this person gets the job, I still have a job to do. While I get my shit together and begin looking for a better opportunity, it will be interestng to watch this less-qualified person struggle. Partly because of their lack of qualifications, but also because it will reflect poorly on the management. The management is already not well respected due to their ineptitude, and while I was looking to be part of that solution, now we'll get to watch another unqualified individual become part of the larger problem.

There is a person that stated that my mistake was mentioning my knowledge of the position, suggesting that if I let it stay quiet, I'd have them by balls. In hindsight, you may be right. In the moment, however, I was witnessing the second time a position was created, not mentioned and mysteriously filled by a good friend (but not qualified) of the manager in question. My gut feeling told me not to stay quiet. Whether that was right or wrong, I don't know. I can see both sides of it. It is what it is.

There are many more cavaets to this story, nothing specific that would make a difference here or there, or even for the purposes of this thread. It's just that the place is such a cancer, that I'm realizing that not getting this position is likely a blessing in disguise - for me. On to bigger and better things, and surely better companies to work for.

I appreciate everyone taking their time to reply. You all have a Merry Christmas!
Bob4
Account deleted
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New Jersey

Bob4

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If this is your only complaint about the place, you'll be just as unhappy anywhere else, since favoritism in job promotions is standard operating procedure.

vaxvms
ferroequine fan
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Now I'm confused. First you said
said by dsdaa :

Now, the vacant position is the Supervisor, which Ms. K is no longer. Ms. K will be the person in charge of hiring for her old position.

Now you say
said by dsdaa :

I was witnessing the second time a position was created, not mentioned and mysteriously filled by a good friend (but not qualified) of the manager in question.

Which is it? Filling a vacant position or creating a brand new position.
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