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Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
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reply to Amou

Re: Time to start shopping for a new isp.

said by Amou:

You could just stay and don't do illegal things but bye and good luck.

Wow.. I'm just lost for words...

Educate yourself, then post...

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

I do not see Rogers named. The response was also pertinent to his statement he knows for a fact it will happen this time around as well.

We can't go by history either. Teksavvy had a history as well of doing things that it no longer does. So let's ignore the "they have a history of..." stuff.

When a bold statement such as "fact" is said pertinent to recent events, it tell's me one has more information then the rest of us know.

Nobody goes after Rogers. I suspect this has something to do with the rumour that Rogers requests $200 per IP to get a subscriber name.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

swampboy

join:2012-01-24
Hamilton, ON
reply to Amou

"You could just stay and don't do illegal things but bye and good luck."

First off, this conversation is obviously over your head. Here's an example. Let's say you have a wireless network, secured or unsecured. With just a little bit of effort your network can be accessed and the person doing the access can download all the copyright material they want. The ip address points to you and you are on the hook. This court case makes having a home wireless network a huge risk. The only safe network is a wired and firewalled one and even those can be overcome if the person downloads a virus/trojan.

I hope you aren't one of those accidentally accused - because if you are get ready for some big expenses. You can save yourself a lot of grief and worry by changing to an ISP that doesn't log. Or you can stay with Teksavvy and roll the dice. Your choice.



TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

said by swampboy:

You can save yourself a lot of grief and worry by changing to an ISP that doesn't log.

NEWSFLASH! All ISP's log.

So I guess you're going to have to go off and live your analog life without an internet. How much you selling all your internet gadgets for down at the pawn shop?
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

said by Tx:

I do not see Rogers named. The response was also pertinent to his statement he knows for a fact it will happen this time around as well.

We can't go by history either. Teksavvy had a history as well of doing things that it no longer does. So let's ignore the "they have a history of..." stuff.

When a bold statement such as "fact" is said pertinent to recent events, it tell's me one has more information then the rest of us know.

Nobody goes after Rogers. I suspect this has something to do with the rumour that Rogers requests $200 per IP to get a subscriber name.

Then maybe for once Rogers has the right idea?... You answered it yourself if true. I think it should be more, and that said i'm rather curious what Marc will be charging per

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

said by Tx:

said by resa1983:

said by Tx:

I do not see Rogers named. The response was also pertinent to his statement he knows for a fact it will happen this time around as well.

We can't go by history either. Teksavvy had a history as well of doing things that it no longer does. So let's ignore the "they have a history of..." stuff.

When a bold statement such as "fact" is said pertinent to recent events, it tell's me one has more information then the rest of us know.

Nobody goes after Rogers. I suspect this has something to do with the rumour that Rogers requests $200 per IP to get a subscriber name.

Then maybe for once Rogers has the right idea?... You answered it yourself if true. I think it should be more, and that said i'm rather curious what Marc will be charging per

The thing is, its only to cover COSTS, not to make the IP->subscriber prohibitive.

Its really up to the courts what costs are assigned.. ISP will submit their actual costs, and it may be that an ISP has to 'eat' some of it. Rogers is extremely inefficient. We've seen this with 2011-703, where they go back and do things multiple times (running up costs of doing things). Its very possible that Rogers had to eat some of the costs of the IP->sub as they were already insanely high.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

Nobody goes after Rogers. I suspect this has something to do with the rumour that Rogers requests $200 per IP to get a subscriber name.

ISPs in Australia implemented a similar system....It costs them money to provide replies to 3rd parties on copyright grounds just like it cost TSI to identify, email, etc those 2000+ subscribers. I doubt Voltage paid TSI a cent....In Australia, those ISPs just started charging like $50 per request even and they saw the number plummet...It seems like these trolls and their movie studio employers are really really concerned with privacy...Until they gotta put money where their mouth is...

said by Tx:

said by Amou:

You could just stay and don't do illegal things but bye and good luck.

Wow.. I'm just lost for words...

Educate yourself, then post...

Wow...seriously. I always knew there were sheep online but they got that guy hook line and sinker...
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to swampboy

OP: you're crazy if you think you're going to find a better company to do business with on these issues. You could try your luck with Telus or SHAW if you can get them in your area, Robbers is the most unethical company in Canada imo so I wouldn't count on them.


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

said by resa1983:

Nobody goes after Rogers. I suspect this has something to do with the rumour that Rogers requests $200 per IP to get a subscriber name.

ISPs in Australia implemented a similar system....It costs them money to provide replies to 3rd parties on copyright grounds just like it cost TSI to identify, email, etc those 2000+ subscribers. I doubt Voltage paid TSI a cent....In Australia, those ISPs just started charging like $50 per request even and they saw the number plummet...It seems like these trolls and their movie studio employers are really really concerned with privacy...Until they gotta put money where their mouth is...

Once TSI submits costs to the court, the judge will make a decision as to how much TSI will get, and then make an order.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

swampboy

join:2012-01-24
Hamilton, ON
reply to TwiztedZero

There is a business case for not logging - that's where I will be going. Given a choice, I will not support an ISP that logs without a court order. At present I am within range of 3 free wifi networks and 18 secured networks and 4 unsecured - I can surf for free if I want. I don't - I'm just saying there is a potential for a lot of innocent people to get hurt by this.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
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reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

The thing is, its only to cover COSTS, not to make the IP->subscriber prohibitive.

Its really up to the courts what costs are assigned.. ISP will submit their actual costs, and it may be that an ISP has to 'eat' some of it. Rogers is extremely inefficient. We've seen this with 2011-703, where they go back and do things multiple times (running up costs of doing things). Its very possible that Rogers had to eat some of the costs of the IP->sub as they were already insanely high.

Well considering they're being asked to associate 2300 IP's to accounts be it a 10% margin of them are the same user, high paid techs and "administrative fee's" could easily be pushed to a level of which is fair to TSI but absurd for Voltage to pay in order to get.

I'll be honest, i'm surprised a judge hasn't looked at Voltage's history over the last 6 years and seen that they barely produce movies anymore, they are just going after people as the new business model and this is not what copyright was intended for.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

said by Tx:

said by resa1983:

The thing is, its only to cover COSTS, not to make the IP->subscriber prohibitive.

Its really up to the courts what costs are assigned.. ISP will submit their actual costs, and it may be that an ISP has to 'eat' some of it. Rogers is extremely inefficient. We've seen this with 2011-703, where they go back and do things multiple times (running up costs of doing things). Its very possible that Rogers had to eat some of the costs of the IP->sub as they were already insanely high.

Well considering they're being asked to associate 2300 IP's to accounts be it a 10% margin of them are the same user, high paid techs and "administrative fee's" could easily be pushed to a level of which is fair to TSI but absurd for Voltage to pay in order to get.

I'll be honest, i'm surprised a judge hasn't looked at Voltage's history over the last 6 years and seen that they barely produce movies anymore, they are just going after people as the new business model and this is not what copyright was intended for.

Nobody but CIPPIC has brought up history, therefore the Judge can't really use it to make a decision yay or nay. Once CIPPIC becomes an intervenor, and a mini-trial of evidence prior to the court order occurs, only then can all this be brought up.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


DarkStar33

join:2008-03-27
Toronto, ON
reply to swampboy

The whole reason this first court date was created to decide if this information should even be provided.

CIPPIC's job is to ensure the privacy of Canadians and to prevent the abuse of the legal system to retrieve this information without any Voltage having any intention of actually going to court.

Its entirely possible that in order to preserve the privacy of Canadian citizens (our government actually care about this quite a bit), a requirement for disclosure of this customer information may be that they must be used in legal proceedings only.

The copyright framework was created to prevent companies from sending shakedown letters, something that has received a large amount of controversy in the US.

We will know more in Jan.
--
TekSavvy Extreme Cable Pro (Toronto, ON)
»www.speedtest.net/result/1343900371.png


jibby

join:2008-03-31
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to swampboy

i'm not jumping ship or trash talking TSI but i'd consider switching to an ISP with minimal/no logs just to avoid the possibility of being mistakenly identified in logs.

we've already seen that 42 people can be identified in error very easily - that's a mistake i personally can't afford


cynic10

join:2011-02-05

1 edit

And that's the scary part. 42 people been wrongly identified.

What if those 42 didn't know any better and paid out a settlement to avoid going to court. How screwed up is that? Basically they're guilty until proven innocent. That's exactly what's been happening in the US.

I can only hope our court is not as corrupted as the US when it comes to copyright laws or paid off already. That's why TSI is a major letdown in its decision to just let the issue fly. These trolls do nothing but shakedown customers and pick on those that don't have the resources or means to defend themselves and they know it because it's extra revenue for them.


funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to eeeaddict

said by eeeaddict:

You think a company like bell will care more about your privacy? as a distributel customer I think TSI is the BEST choice if you care about privacy, honestly unless you find a mom and pop wisp I can't think of another company that won't sell you out quickly

hehe BELL would kill you if they thought they could make money
that is the way i feel...rogers used the fbi early on for its "security" gee wonder who knows about your surfing habits with rogers....

shaw and telus well jsut the same as bell

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Fuzzy285

said by Fuzzy285:

said by eeeaddict:

You think a company like bell will care more about your privacy? as a distributel customer I think TSI is the BEST choice if you care about privacy, honestly unless you find a mom and pop wisp I can't think of another company that won't sell you out quickly

If all subscribers affected by this court motion switched as a consequence it would send a clear message to all the other ISP's about how to conduct themselves in the future. Would it be fair to TSI? Probably not, but neither is paying $20K for something your neighbour, child, cousin downloaded off your connection.

I think I read somewhere that the 2,300 IP's translated into just short of 1,500 customers; @ $50/month = $900,000/year in lost revenues for TSI. If that were to happen, TSI and other ISP's might start keeping logs for a shorter period of time as a consequence.

na they'd send more trolls to the teksavvy board to try and gain more customers using the tsi did nothing crap

fact is did you ever hear bell , telus, shaw, rogers...ever warn there customers before the fact...NO
they just say gimmie gimmie a few dollars and you can have all da precious

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to koreyb

said by koreyb:

I can tell you for a fact the big 3 would hand over your info if ordered by a court. I'm shocked how everyone seems to feel if they broke the law they should be shielded... Canadians are becoming far too entitled if they think it should be an isps duty to not follow the new rules on logs and not follow a court order should one be given. Get your heads out of the clouds... Tsi is asking the courts to give a ruling. If they say give it to them... Then they have to comply... The new copyright law isn't perfect but its the law now... Live with it... As no one did.much before they made the law.

anyone would if ordered by a court
but after standing up for net neutrality and user rights you'd think that some way they might at least fire off one across the bow of voltage about the technicallity they filed for the wrong thing and can't prove what they are claiming so why bother giving them the users names and addresses. It makes no differance they can't prove commerical infringement with just an ip address trading/sharing a file.

NOW warning you all is good , shows the system is broken already and needs a lil more fixing as in more process added to evidence discovery for proof that commerical or non commerical was done.

and i'll bet you 50 bucks voltage won't refile for non commerical cause there just is too much risk to get no money using lawyers.
ALSO an aspect of where they filed might mean they can't enjoin all these people this way , as provincial courts have jurisdiction on class actions....thus they need to file in a lower court and thus also can't file for punitive commerical this way...
to hit you punitively using a federal law they must file federally and cant join all the cases....

class actions are meant for we the people to fight big bad companies and corproations not the other way around, and judges are making recently the rules tougher to get any class action going.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to cynic10

said by cynic10:

I find it ridiculous how you assume people who are complaining are guilty. Everyone is entitled to the right of privacy. "Live with it". What nonsense is this.

Even you admit the copyright law isn't perfect, why should we have to live with it? If no one is going to fight it then nothing is going to change.

It's about the gross abuse of system on those copyright trolls part into intimidating customers into paying fees for something they dont have much proof off.

Spare me your holier than thou attitude and go preach elsewhere.

im not guilty nor named in said suit , ive had about 30 gb of data use this month ...tell me why then i seek to help my fellow Canadians? oh im a big crazy file sharer am i. prove it and if you can't its slander and defamation of character...be careful lots a lawyers crawling over this site now.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by Fuzzy285:

said by koreyb:

the new rules on logs and not follow a court order should one be given. Get your heads out of the clouds...

. The problem is, there is no law regarding for how long ISP's have to initially retain logs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are not wrong. No set maximums/minimums. ISP is free to choose none to 5 years if they wanted.

almost impossible on large scale systems ot not have some logs and for spamming and bad things that can happen you might think a month is prolly the min that could be doable in scale.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by koreyb:

I can tell you for a fact the big 3 would hand over your info

As you've stated fact. Could you please provide me evidence of this? No one claims fact unless they know something the rest of the world doesn't, unless it's pure speculation.

would you like a log of a rogers tach tellign me that in 1998 they used the fbi as security back in the @home days...effectively handing over to a foreign power your privacy and security?

ive got the drive and its been barely still working
and bell well ive got one story for you and they broke the law cutting off 9/11 on me...i could have died.
tell me this is a nice company , oh and my familly used ot be all bell they have all now switched to other phone services.

thats the price a being mean


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
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·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by funny:

said by Tx:

said by koreyb:

I can tell you for a fact the big 3 would hand over your info

As you've stated fact. Could you please provide me evidence of this? No one claims fact unless they know something the rest of the world doesn't, unless it's pure speculation.

would you like a log of a rogers tach tellign me that in 1998 they used the fbi as security back in the @home days...effectively handing over to a foreign power your privacy and security?

ive got the drive and its been barely still working
and bell well ive got one story for you and they broke the law cutting off 9/11 on me...i could have died.
tell me this is a nice company , oh and my familly used ot be all bell they have all now switched to other phone services.

thats the price a being mean

Although not relevant to the issue at hand or discussion, i'd love to see this log.

Amou

join:2011-01-29
Guelph, ON
Reviews:
·Acanac
·TekSavvy Cable
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reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by Amou:

You could just stay and don't do illegal things but bye and good luck.

Wow.. I'm just lost for words...

Educate yourself, then post...

Educate what? Enlighten me. As I do recall their policy has always been there since we signed it. We all choose to be with them and read the policy I assume, so why must they even step a foot into our mess? Because we pay them money? So do people who follow rules. Whose fault is that they must hand over the logs? Not them they didn't do anything. They are being forced too hand over. It's their business and want to keep customer sure, but I personally wouldn't go against the law for what I haven't done and can clearly see that they have. If you are complaining about privacy, it is understandable to a certain point but nothing to worry about if you didn't do anything wrong. Yeah you can always use the excuse that you share your ip with people or you didn't secure your network but how long do you think "ignorance is bliss" will last? Doesn't work with any other law out there... The only difference here is that Teksavvy told people of what is going on instead of just letting it go unknown. They weren't obligated. There would not be people complaining if they didn't tell us, just people unprepared and probably all be charged by now. They keep logs for good reasons and they even state it. I don't see how they are in the wrong at all when they are being force their hands. Unless you want them to break the law for us.~ Just because they aren't opposing them doesn't mean they are just going to let it go like that. They've been there since UBB and still fighting net neutrality for us. They've always been fighting for us. But one thing happens that they can't control everyone goes mad at them. I'm sure if you were in their position you would be doing what Marc has been doing that is best for his company and best for the customers. He has to balance the too. You might see it as just a company but to him he sees it as another extension of family that he sees everyday like us. I don't blame him for anything and he hasn't keep anything in the dark with us, logs and what is happening. Which might state he has given us lots of time considering how full his hands are. Whose to say that by not making a move isn't a smart move? Sometimes the situation can turn around because they overlooked something on the other side and this really is the best course of action and the face that they have to hand over our privacy is not their fault, also logging was stated in policy so they haven't done anything wrong.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
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said by Amou:

said by Tx:

said by Amou:

You could just stay and don't do illegal things but bye and good luck.

Wow.. I'm just lost for words...

Educate yourself, then post...

Educate what? Enlighten me. As I do recall their policy has always been there since we signed it. We all choose to be with them and read the policy I assume, so why must they even step a foot into our mess? Because we pay them money? So do people who follow rules. Whose fault is that they must hand over the logs? Not them they didn't do anything. They are being forced too hand over. It's their business and want to keep customer sure, but I personally wouldn't go against the law for what I haven't done and can clearly see that they have. If you are complaining about privacy, it is understandable to a certain point but nothing to worry about if you didn't do anything wrong. Yeah you can always use the excuse that you share your ip with people or you didn't secure your network but how long do you think "ignorance is bliss" will last? Doesn't work with any other law out there... The only difference here is that Teksavvy told people of what is going on instead of just letting it go unknown. They weren't obligated. There would not be people complaining if they didn't tell us, just people unprepared and probably all be charged by now. They keep logs for good reasons and they even state it. I don't see how they are in the wrong at all when they are being force their hands. Unless you want them to break the law for us.~ Just because they aren't opposing them doesn't mean they are just going to let it go like that. They've been there since UBB and still fighting net neutrality for us. They've always been fighting for us. But one thing happens that they can't control everyone goes mad at them. I'm sure if you were in their position you would be doing what Marc has been doing that is best for his company and best for the customers. He has to balance the too. You might see it as just a company but to him he sees it as another extension of family that he sees everyday like us. I don't blame him for anything and he hasn't keep anything in the dark with us, logs and what is happening. Which might state he has given us lots of time considering how full his hands are. Whose to say that by not making a move isn't a smart move? Sometimes the situation can turn around because they overlooked something on the other side and this really is the best course of action and the face that they have to hand over our privacy is not their fault, also logging was stated in policy so they haven't done anything wrong.

Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.

All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.

"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja

Amou

join:2011-01-29
Guelph, ON
Reviews:
·Acanac
·TekSavvy Cable
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1 recommendation

said by Tx:

Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.

All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.

"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja

Quite true, people don't read. If you read policy and understand how the internet works, you wouldn't be in this mess. Ignorance is bliss only works until they put in a law saying that you probably shouldn't leave your door open and next time it happens that excuse won't work and yes unfortunate for your grandmother, the person setting up the network obviously didn't know how to read the manual and set up easy security.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
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1 recommendation

said by Amou:

said by Tx:

Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.

All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.

"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja

Quite true, people don't read. If you read policy and understand how the internet works, you wouldn't be in this mess. Ignorance is bliss only works until they put in a law saying that you probably shouldn't leave your door open and next time it happens that excuse won't work and yes unfortunate for your grandmother, the person setting up the network obviously didn't know how to read the manual and set up easy security.

What in the world are you going on about? Reading policy and me understanding? huh? Then i wouldn't be in what mess?!?

Leaving your door open analogy as in an open router? Un bud, pushing a door vs configuring a router quite a bit different... if that's what you're getting at, that's a horrible analogy.

That "person" setting up her router didn't need to read a manual lol. That "person" is me, a tech of 22 years who had the account fully and absolutely secured including mac restriction.

What's worse is you think reading a manual will keep you out of trouble lol. I won't insult you about not knowing much, many don't. Just believe me when i tell you, send me your address via PM if you like i'll come by and show you i can access your network from outside before i leave to head home.

Judging by your ideals, i honestly do not believe you're well educated in the IT field. That said, please don't be so knuckle headed and think you're safe because you read a manual. Be smarter then that.

Also for those who think not broadcasting your SSID will hide, let me tell you the software i use and any sniffing software finds all networks.

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to swampboy

You guys need to stop blaming teksavvy and start looking at legal defenses.

Its the law they have to obey it.

Read up on ingress and egress filtering because not every isp practices it is relatively trivial to create fraudulent packets that isp's routers will forward to their destinations causing the device on the other end think it is talking to the fraudulent ip address.

Someone on an isp without filtering or even potentiality the movie trolls themselves can pretend to be a teksavvy customer (even if teksavvy filter's on their own network because it came from another network). As far as the other end is concerned the packets came from teksavvy.

There you go now you guys have the basis to found a defense on.

If your not part of the upcoming lawsuit contact your MP and work on getting the laws changed to be a based in reality. If you getting sued contact your lawyer and get a solid defense ready because your going to need it.

None of my customers have been targeted by voltage but I have still taken measures anyways. (log retention is now only 3 months).

ISP's cant stop logging ip address assignments as there is FAR too many illegal things you can do on the internet and no sane person running an isp would want to turn their network into a safe haven for child predators or child pornographers or terrorists.

Teksavvy are the good guys not the bad guys they are doing everything legally possible to protect you from the copyright trolls.

Every isp should follow the model that teksavvy has put forth.
--
www.ontariohighspeed.ca


jibby

join:2008-03-31

the 'you don't deserve privacy because child porn' argument is getting really tired, imo

an ISP is not a law enforcement agency


cynic10

join:2011-02-05

It's hilarious how people are using child porn to try to make a point on copyright cases. ROFL! This reminds me of the SOPA and the likes where same argument was used.


OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to swampboy

I think the hysterical part is how out of touch with reality some of the people on this forum are.