34764170 (banned)
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON |
to OHSrob
Re: Time to start shopping for a new isp.said by OHSrob:I think the hysterical part is how out of touch with reality some of the people on this forum are.
It's a lot more than "some". |
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scruf
join:2000-08-13
Canada |
to cynic10
actually the scary part is Teksavvy can't read their own logs, how did they manage to misidentify? |
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 hm
@videotron.ca |
hm to jibby
Anon
2012-Dec-23 9:12 pm
to jibby
said by jibby:the 'you don't deserve privacy because child porn' argument is getting really tired, imo
an ISP is not a law enforcement agency
Hmm... You are on an extreme end. Balance, my friend, balance. One has to respect life, and respect trying to prevent loss of life. Be it exploited kids, suicide, or other that is similar. Kids are fragile. So are certain young adults. The creep (male nurse) who helped the depressed U-of-Carleton girl kill herself is a prime example of the logs pointing to who was who. Laws need to be revisited. Hollywood greed is exploiting the good that can come of it. I'm sure Marc doesn't want to sit there saying to himself, "if only I had logs, that young girl could have been saved". after a few of those I would even be a basket case in, Marc's shoes. You fail to accept reality. Time to man-up. These things exist. Marc /CNOC/CIPPIC/CAIPO/CRTC/Law-makers/Gov/Prov need to address this. No easy answer. However an easy answer would be, logs are available to no one outside law enforcement where life is at stake. Unavailable to everyone else. This strikes a balance. One where an ISP owner could sleep at night and live with him/her self. Marc could very well be a deciding and influencing factor in Canadian law. Or american Hollywood trolling and Canadian laws can force his hand to be a person who will eventually turn a blind eye, which will cause lives. Lots going on here. More than meets he eye. Policy makers are watching this one.. |
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to OHSrob
said by OHSrob:Read up on ingress and egress filtering because not every isp practices it is relatively trivial to create fraudulent packets that isp's routers will forward to their destinations causing the device on the other end think it is talking to the fraudulent ip address.
Someone on an isp without filtering or even potentiality the movie trolls themselves can pretend to be a teksavvy customer (even if teksavvy filter's on their own network because it came from another network). As far as the other end is concerned the packets came from teksavvy.
So you're saying that someone can forge packets and basically frame someone else. And knowing this to be a fact, your approach is still to retain logs for 3 months. Even though law enforcement investigating serious crimes can get a warrant for your recent logs in less than 48h, you still retain 3 months worth of logs. Not 2 weeks. Not 4 weeks. 3 Months. Just in case someone who's not law enforcement, like say a copyright troll, needs it. Well, at least you're doing your part. |
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 TOPDAWG
Premium Member
join:2005-04-27
Calgary, AB |
to swampboy
I'm a bit confused on this stuff. is tek giving all their users info over or just the ones who have the IP's or had the IP's the copyright trolls asked for? |
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Just the ones that the trolls asked for. Roughly 2,300 of them. For now. Canipre has been collecting IP's for 6 months, or so they claim. If you really want to know, here are the relevant new sections of the Act, emphasis mine:
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Obligations related to notice
41.26 (1) A person described in paragraph 41.25(1)(a) or (b) who receives a notice of claimed infringement that complies with subsection 41.25(2) shall, on being paid any fee that the person has lawfully charged for doing so,
(a) as soon as feasible forward the notice electronically to the person to whom the electronic location identified by the location data specified in the notice belongs and inform the claimant of its forwarding or, if applicable, of the reason why it was not possible to forward it; and
(b) retain records that will allow the identity of the person to whom the electronic location belongs to be determined, and do so for six months beginning on the day on which the notice of claimed infringement is received or, if the claimant commences proceedings relating to the claimed infringement and so notifies the person before the end of those six months, for one year after the day on which the person receives the notice of claimed infringement.
Fees related to notices
(2) The Minister may, by regulation, fix the maximum fee that a person may charge for performing his or her obligations under subsection (1). If no maximum is fixed by regulation, the person may not charge any amount under that subsection.
Damages related to notices
(3) A claimant’s only remedy against a person who fails to perform his or her obligations under subsection (1) is statutory damages in an amount that the court considers just, but not less than $5,000 and not more than $10,000
============================================
So ONCE an ISP has received a copyright infringement claim they are to retain existing records for that person for 6 months. Basically, they can't destroy records, and need to keep tabs on that client for up to a year. There's no provision regarding how long ISP's are to retain their normal daily operation logs, or at least I can't find it in the Act or regulations. But if TSI matched your IP to the ones provided by Voltage, they're going to keep logs on you for 6 months to 1 year.
Note also that if an ISP fails to perform his obligations (cough up client info), the copyright troll can ask statutory damages against the ISP of $5K to $10K. That's about half of what they are asking from the "owners" of the IP's named in the motion.
Now here's the question: are those statutory damages against an uncompliant ISP meant to be applied per Doe, or per motion? I wish someone who's a lawyer could interpret it, because if it is per motion it means less than $5 per client info that TSI refuses to release. That can't be right. |
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TOPDAWG
Premium Member
join:2005-04-27
Calgary, AB |
TOPDAWG
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 12:41 am
ah ok thanks for the info. |
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 Txbronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium Member
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON |
Tx to cynic10
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 1:58 am
to cynic10
said by cynic10:It's hilarious how people are using child porn to try to make a point on copyright cases. ROFL! This reminds me of the SOPA and the likes where same argument was used.
Child porn is used as the example due to it's extreme nature. The method of collecting the data user info is the same. Take John out of the piracy seat and put John in the child porn seat, let law enforcement grab user info off an IP. Now we're talking same methods of user retrieval but far more serious charges. The charges aren't the discussion. If you pirate, deal with the charges. The charges are irrelevant in the IP collection/gathering of consumer information. Read between the lines. |
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| Tx |
Tx to OHSrob
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 2:00 am
to OHSrob
said by OHSrob:I think the hysterical part is how out of touch with reality some of the people on this forum are.
Whose out of touch with reality by arguing the very scary nature of being on the hook with the smoking gun and being innocent? You're the one out of touch with reality as you lack the understanding of just how easy i myself could make you liable for anything without you ever being home. Send me your address and i'll show you reality if you like. Reality is, those that do not know better are the ones most at risk. |
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1 edit |
to swampboy
Here is a bit of reality.
Thee is no chance in hell that Volatage is doing this by themselves. They will have some if not a pile of support form their movie trolls.
TSI is much more vulnerable financially then the big boys. If any of the big boys decided to fight them, they would not stand a chance. So they go after TSI and set precedence.
TSI by simply rolling over and not putting up any defense of privacy or issues of error or ANY barrier other then "we tried, our hands are tied".
Once precedence is set, the big boys will have an excuse to hand over too without looking like tools.
Given how easy the first volley TSI made it for the money trolls, EXPECT a nice new shiny and very lucrative business model.
If our expectations of privacy is thrown under the bus next month and I expect we will be, there is only ONE way to make TSI and the rest of the industry pay, MIGRATE to companies that keep the minimum records and time. I am currently a customer of TSI but soon will not be. I hope a lot of people will migrate to providers who take the privacy of their customers much more seriously. |
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| Who7 |
to swampboy
BTW....
I went online once to get an opinion on a washing machine. There I found a very willing and highly opinionated "fellow poster" who in the end, was a salesman.
Anyone can post on this forum, including people who pretend to have no intere$t in this other then self proclaimed righteous opinion. |
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1 edit |
to Who7
In addition to shopping for short log retentions, will we have to hire a network administrator to configure and manage our wireless routers now? Damn you conservatives, you've finally motivated me to vote in the next election. |
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Who7
Member
2012-Dec-24 4:12 am
It's not a "Conservative" issue. The industry was screaming and threatening their heads off. Don't underestimate how much money the movie industry brings in and how much pressure they can exert because of that.
Look hard......and note all the "legalization" of many things that were commonly done (time shifting, youtube music, etc) but dangerously left it up to the courts to interpret. Now all of those are LEGAL....... and they also left a GIANT hole for ISP's to protect their customers. So all the ISP's have to do is walk through it.
This is as simple as pie. None or minimum log retention. No records. No troll industry. Period. |
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logs to TOPDAWG
Anon
2012-Dec-24 6:31 am
to TOPDAWG
I didint read the last 10 posts but before that many people think its a good idea to remove logs all together. Well how the hell are we going to catch criminals who hack the banks and do other dangerous things ? As soon as an ISP removes logs, all the scum will go to that ISP to do all their nasty business. Its a safety issue.
Another point is that logs are kept for the operation of the ISP in general. They have to fix problems, which have to be logged somewhere so that they can troubleshoot. It skinda common sense so forget about log removal - none of them will do it. |
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hm
@videotron.ca |
to resa1983
said by resa1983:Once TSI submits costs to the court, the judge will make a decision as to how much TSI will get, and then make an order.
I'm not so sure TSI have to lose money by insisting on notifying their customers, as Marc stated. When I called PrivCom about the Videotron, Bell & Cogeco Hurt Locker suit, they said they have a responsibility for protection of info, which Videotron, Bell and Cogeco chose to ignore. Now I'm sure Marc got sound legal advice and Bean-counter advice, however, I just question this. Protection can come in many forms. In this case protection came with your right to be informed (as Marc has done) when your private info can end up some place shady, and it's up to you to get legal counsil to quash. Thus, Marc performed his duties under PIPEDA (as I see it). Or as the Ontario Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner (IPC.on.ca), Dr. Ann Cavoukian, would state: Marc performed his duty by having privacy built into the process as best he could under the circumstances. So as far as I see it both fed and prov (although this is Fed regulated) Marc did his duty. Up to people to pull up their socks as well. So, should these monies be claimed? Of course. Protection, as it pertains to Fed reg's (and even prov) has been completed. Marc seems to think otherwise, but I would fight this and claim the cost of notice as well since it served also as protection (which many may just ignore, their choice). Anyhow that's just my argument into the cost and why it should be costed and not come out of TSI's pocket. |
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Txbronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium Member
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON |
Tx to logs
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 7:03 am
to logs
said by logs :I didint read the last 10 posts but before that many people think its a good idea to remove logs all together. Well how the hell are we going to catch criminals who hack the banks and do other dangerous things ? As soon as an ISP removes logs, all the scum will go to that ISP to do all their nasty business. Its a safety issue.
Another point is that logs are kept for the operation of the ISP in general. They have to fix problems, which have to be logged somewhere so that they can troubleshoot. It skinda common sense so forget about log removal - none of them will do it.
ISP logs are the least of your worry with hackers... most will be using multiple proxies hiding their tracks. Hackers are good at staying hidden, that's what make's them good at what they do. Even when i was 13, i was rooting servers for fun and before i was done i'd wipe logs and hide any traces of a root except for a defaced front page of their site. Wasn't my most admirable days, i was stupid but it was fun, the learning and knowing how a system's gears turn. I developed a root kit back in the day that was widely used... Why? because i enjoyed programming and creating a tool that tests the security of a box. I was later hired as a security analyst to preform audits on their boxes to find vulnerabilities. To this day SQL injections are the easiest way to screw with people. All this said, an ISP keeping a log of me is least of my worry if i was a hacker. You know why? Because hackers these days unlike when i was younger have access to wifi. If it were me doing it today, i'd be using YOUR connection to "hack banks" etc. I've said it in a previous thread, that a neighbour of mine didn't believe me that his wifi unsafe. I did it right in front of him, cracked his wifi on his patio gaining access to his entire shared network. |
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 ptrowskiGot Helix?
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Woodstock, CT |
to swampboy
How many people in this thread have received letters? |
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poster to Tx
Anon
2012-Dec-24 10:49 am
to Tx
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 A Lurkerthat's Ms Lurker btw
Premium Member
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
1 edit |
to ptrowski
said by ptrowski:How many people in this thread have received letters? Oddly enough, I think the most vocal people in the threads have not received a letter. I haven't (a-not a TSI customer, b-don't use torrents). However, I know the danger of fishing expeditions like this and hate to think that Voltage could possibly make more money with sending out threatening letters than they did by making movies. It's been stated over and over, but an innocent person fighting could spend more money than the possible extortion letters could ask for. That's fine for some that can afford to fight, but what about those that can't. Also, any that do pay up just make it more likely they'll do it again, to a larger group. I've seen a couple of numbers thrown around that says at least 2% of the original people ID'd were incorrect. That doesn't even take into account that some of the IPs may not have been provided correctly in the first place. This is from an ISP that is taking care to make sure those identifications were correct. Take Rogers, or Cogeco, or Bell... will they be as concerned with getting the identifications correct? If you have an issue with the identification will they be responding promptly to help you. * So, let's see - a million identifications (that's what they claim they have). Could be 20,000 people getting sued under false pretenses. Could be another group that haven't done what they're being accused of... it gets messy. It's sad really as the media companies likely are spending a fortune to try and stop the process. Research, better licensing, finding a better method to distribute, and everyone might win. ETA: * sorry I meant to add that ~3 years ago (& 2) I got a notification from Cogeco that definitely wasn't me. A very helpful person in their security department did at least help with the an explanation. |
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Txbronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium Member
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON |
Tx to ptrowski
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 11:54 am
to ptrowski
said by ptrowski:How many people in this thread have received letters?
I didn't and i doubt many did... so far i can say about 3 people have said they received them. |
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to Tx
@Tx - I totally agree with your posts on this matter. It is sad to see so many are so misinformed on security issues. I'm not on Voltage's list, but I know I could easily have been so - either accidentally or through someone jumping on my network.
I have thought a lot about possible solutions for Teksavvy:
1) stop logging for all unlimited customers - it is totally unnecessary for billing purposes.
2) make all other subscribers aware that their internet usage is logged and if they don't want that - they have to move to unlimited.
This is a win-win. More money and happy customers. Teksavvy remains the good guy and builds it's reputation. |
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Anon4000
Anon
2012-Dec-24 12:40 pm
said by swampboy:2) make all other subscribers aware that their internet usage is logged and if they don't want that - they have to move to unlimited.
This is a win-win. More money and happy customers. Teksavvy remains the good guy and builds it's reputation.
Only problem would be political. The movie industry would train it's eye on Teksavvy, ala Lord of the Rings, and bring their considerable finances and political influence to bear. I think Teksavvy understands this and that's why they are hanging customers out to dry. It's really up to the internet population to protect themselves from these troll attacks. You are your best protection. |
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funny0 to Tx
Member
2012-Dec-24 12:42 pm
to Tx
said by Tx:Although not relevant to the issue at hand or discussion, i'd love to see this log.
of course you would tell me how would i do that and keep my anonimity i know ill upload this to the pirate bay and come back after i do this (its the darn holidays bud ) and ill out that ya no problem |
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| funny0 |
funny0 to Tx
Member
2012-Dec-24 12:44 pm
to Tx
said by Tx:Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.
All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.
"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja
you sound liek that guilty guy whom tries to find any reason to sound innocent. and once said error was found was she not exonertated...all courts make errors now and then...instead fo showing JUST a probelm why not try a solution too |
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| funny0 |
to Amou
said by Amou:said by Tx:Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.
All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.
"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja
Quite true, people don't read. If you read policy and understand how the internet works, you wouldn't be in this mess. Ignorance is bliss only works until they put in a law saying that you probably shouldn't leave your door open and next time it happens that excuse won't work and yes unfortunate for your grandmother, the person setting up the network obviously didn't know how to read the manual and set up easy security. hehe im not even gonna tell you how many ways you prolly infringe someone's intellectual property ina day , that don't sue you....so have a nice day..copyrights with 80 year terms are not about user/consumer/society balance they are a rape of humankind. |
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Txbronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium Member
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON |
Tx to funny0
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 12:46 pm
to funny0
said by funny0:said by Tx:Although not relevant to the issue at hand or discussion, i'd love to see this log.
of course you would tell me how would i do that and keep my anonimity i know ill upload this to the pirate bay and come back after i do this (its the darn holidays bud ) and ill out that ya no problem » pastebin.com/ |
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| Tx |
Tx to funny0
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 12:47 pm
to funny0
said by funny0:said by Tx:Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.
All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.
"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja
you sound liek that guilty guy whom tries to find any reason to sound innocent. and once said error was found was she not exonertated...all courts make errors now and then...instead fo showing JUST a probelm why not try a solution too That makes no sense. if i got a letter, i'd have no problems admitting to it lol...i guarantee i didn't, considring i do not use the TSI account from home lol |
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to OHSrob
said by OHSrob:You guys need to stop blaming teksavvy and start looking at legal defenses.
Its the law they have to obey it.
Read up on ingress and egress filtering because not every isp practices it is relatively trivial to create fraudulent packets that isp's routers will forward to their destinations causing the device on the other end think it is talking to the fraudulent ip address.
Someone on an isp without filtering or even potentiality the movie trolls themselves can pretend to be a teksavvy customer (even if teksavvy filter's on their own network because it came from another network). As far as the other end is concerned the packets came from teksavvy.
There you go now you guys have the basis to found a defense on.
If your not part of the upcoming lawsuit contact your MP and work on getting the laws changed to be a based in reality. If you getting sued contact your lawyer and get a solid defense ready because your going to need it.
None of my customers have been targeted by voltage but I have still taken measures anyways. (log retention is now only 3 months).
ISP's cant stop logging ip address assignments as there is FAR too many illegal things you can do on the internet and no sane person running an isp would want to turn their network into a safe haven for child predators or child pornographers or terrorists.
Teksavvy are the good guys not the bad guys they are doing everything legally possible to protect you from the copyright trolls.
Every isp should follow the model that teksavvy has put forth.
yup and what have i been trying ot do for them....its the yap yap not listening factor thats funny |
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| funny0 |
to Fuzzy285
said by Fuzzy285:said by OHSrob:Read up on ingress and egress filtering because not every isp practices it is relatively trivial to create fraudulent packets that isp's routers will forward to their destinations causing the device on the other end think it is talking to the fraudulent ip address.
Someone on an isp without filtering or even potentiality the movie trolls themselves can pretend to be a teksavvy customer (even if teksavvy filter's on their own network because it came from another network). As far as the other end is concerned the packets came from teksavvy.
So you're saying that someone can forge packets and basically frame someone else. And knowing this to be a fact, your approach is still to retain logs for 3 months. Even though law enforcement investigating serious crimes can get a warrant for your recent logs in less than 48h, you still retain 3 months worth of logs. Not 2 weeks. Not 4 weeks. 3 Months. Just in case someone who's not law enforcement, like say a copyright troll, needs it. Well, at least you're doing your part. please you realize how hard that actually is and oh nvm i want you to know that it just doesnt happen enough that 2300 tsi users would be affected for the same thing ergo your saying all 2300 were a zombie bot....good luck with that |
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Txbronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium Member
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON |
Tx
Premium Member
2012-Dec-24 12:48 pm
said by Tx:said by funny0:said by Tx:Although not relevant to the issue at hand or discussion, i'd love to see this log.
of course you would tell me how would i do that and keep my anonimity i know ill upload this to the pirate bay and come back after i do this (its the darn holidays bud ) and ill out that ya no problem Doesn't get easier then this. » pastebin.com/ |
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