dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
7452
share rss forum feed

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to swampboy

Re: Time to start shopping for a new isp.

BTW....

I went online once to get an opinion on a washing machine. There I found a very willing and highly opinionated "fellow poster" who in the end, was a salesman.

Anyone can post on this forum, including people who pretend to have no intere$t in this other then self proclaimed righteous opinion.


Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12

1 edit
reply to Who7

In addition to shopping for short log retentions, will we have to hire a network administrator to configure and manage our wireless routers now? Damn you conservatives, you've finally motivated me to vote in the next election.


Who7

join:2012-12-18

It's not a "Conservative" issue. The industry was screaming and threatening their heads off. Don't underestimate how much money the movie industry brings in and how much pressure they can exert because of that.

Look hard......and note all the "legalization" of many things that were commonly done (time shifting, youtube music, etc) but dangerously left it up to the courts to interpret. Now all of those are LEGAL....... and they also left a GIANT hole for ISP's to protect their customers. So all the ISP's have to do is walk through it.

This is as simple as pie. None or minimum log retention. No records. No troll industry. Period.



logs

@telus.net
reply to TOPDAWG

I didint read the last 10 posts but before that many people think its a good idea to remove logs all together. Well how the hell are we going to catch criminals who hack the banks and do other dangerous things ? As soon as an ISP removes logs, all the scum will go to that ISP to do all their nasty business. Its a safety issue.

Another point is that logs are kept for the operation of the ISP in general. They have to fix problems, which have to be logged somewhere so that they can troubleshoot. It skinda common sense so forget about log removal - none of them will do it.



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

Once TSI submits costs to the court, the judge will make a decision as to how much TSI will get, and then make an order.

I'm not so sure TSI have to lose money by insisting on notifying their customers, as Marc stated.

When I called PrivCom about the Videotron, Bell & Cogeco Hurt Locker suit, they said they have a responsibility for protection of info, which Videotron, Bell and Cogeco chose to ignore.

Now I'm sure Marc got sound legal advice and Bean-counter advice, however, I just question this.

Protection can come in many forms. In this case protection came with your right to be informed (as Marc has done) when your private info can end up some place shady, and it's up to you to get legal counsil to quash.

Thus, Marc performed his duties under PIPEDA (as I see it).

Or as the Ontario Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner (IPC.on.ca), Dr. Ann Cavoukian, would state: Marc performed his duty by having privacy built into the process as best he could under the circumstances.

So as far as I see it both fed and prov (although this is Fed regulated) Marc did his duty. Up to people to pull up their socks as well.

So, should these monies be claimed? Of course. Protection, as it pertains to Fed reg's (and even prov) has been completed.

Marc seems to think otherwise, but I would fight this and claim the cost of notice as well since it served also as protection (which many may just ignore, their choice).

Anyhow that's just my argument into the cost and why it should be costed and not come out of TSI's pocket.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to logs

said by logs :

I didint read the last 10 posts but before that many people think its a good idea to remove logs all together. Well how the hell are we going to catch criminals who hack the banks and do other dangerous things ? As soon as an ISP removes logs, all the scum will go to that ISP to do all their nasty business. Its a safety issue.

Another point is that logs are kept for the operation of the ISP in general. They have to fix problems, which have to be logged somewhere so that they can troubleshoot. It skinda common sense so forget about log removal - none of them will do it.

ISP logs are the least of your worry with hackers... most will be using multiple proxies hiding their tracks. Hackers are good at staying hidden, that's what make's them good at what they do.

Even when i was 13, i was rooting servers for fun and before i was done i'd wipe logs and hide any traces of a root except for a defaced front page of their site. Wasn't my most admirable days, i was stupid but it was fun, the learning and knowing how a system's gears turn.

I developed a root kit back in the day that was widely used... Why? because i enjoyed programming and creating a tool that tests the security of a box. I was later hired as a security analyst to preform audits on their boxes to find vulnerabilities. To this day SQL injections are the easiest way to screw with people.

All this said, an ISP keeping a log of me is least of my worry if i was a hacker. You know why?

Because hackers these days unlike when i was younger have access to wifi. If it were me doing it today, i'd be using YOUR connection to "hack banks" etc. I've said it in a previous thread, that a neighbour of mine didn't believe me that his wifi unsafe. I did it right in front of him, cracked his wifi on his patio gaining access to his entire shared network.


ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4
reply to swampboy

How many people in this thread have received letters?



poster

@109.123.79.x
reply to Tx

»www.cippic.ca/sites/default/file···ions.pdf

Good Read



A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

1 edit
reply to ptrowski

said by ptrowski:

How many people in this thread have received letters?

Oddly enough, I think the most vocal people in the threads have not received a letter. I haven't (a-not a TSI customer, b-don't use torrents). However, I know the danger of fishing expeditions like this and hate to think that Voltage could possibly make more money with sending out threatening letters than they did by making movies.

It's been stated over and over, but an innocent person fighting could spend more money than the possible extortion letters could ask for. That's fine for some that can afford to fight, but what about those that can't. Also, any that do pay up just make it more likely they'll do it again, to a larger group.

I've seen a couple of numbers thrown around that says at least 2% of the original people ID'd were incorrect. That doesn't even take into account that some of the IPs may not have been provided correctly in the first place. This is from an ISP that is taking care to make sure those identifications were correct.

Take Rogers, or Cogeco, or Bell... will they be as concerned with getting the identifications correct? If you have an issue with the identification will they be responding promptly to help you. * So, let's see - a million identifications (that's what they claim they have). Could be 20,000 people getting sued under false pretenses. Could be another group that haven't done what they're being accused of... it gets messy.

It's sad really as the media companies likely are spending a fortune to try and stop the process. Research, better licensing, finding a better method to distribute, and everyone might win.

ETA: * sorry I meant to add that ~3 years ago (& 2) I got a notification from Cogeco that definitely wasn't me. A very helpful person in their security department did at least help with the an explanation.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to ptrowski

said by ptrowski:

How many people in this thread have received letters?

I didn't and i doubt many did... so far i can say about 3 people have said they received them.

swampboy

join:2012-01-24
Hamilton, ON
reply to Tx

@Tx - I totally agree with your posts on this matter. It is sad to see so many are so misinformed on security issues. I'm not on Voltage's list, but I know I could easily have been so - either accidentally or through someone jumping on my network.

I have thought a lot about possible solutions for Teksavvy:

1) stop logging for all unlimited customers - it is totally unnecessary for billing purposes.
2) make all other subscribers aware that their internet usage is logged and if they don't want that - they have to move to unlimited.

This is a win-win. More money and happy customers. Teksavvy remains the good guy and builds it's reputation.



Anon4000

@swissinet.com

said by swampboy:

2) make all other subscribers aware that their internet usage is logged and if they don't want that - they have to move to unlimited.

This is a win-win. More money and happy customers. Teksavvy remains the good guy and builds it's reputation.

Only problem would be political. The movie industry would train it's eye on Teksavvy, ala Lord of the Rings, and bring their considerable finances and political influence to bear. I think Teksavvy understands this and that's why they are hanging customers out to dry.

It's really up to the internet population to protect themselves from these troll attacks. You are your best protection.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

Although not relevant to the issue at hand or discussion, i'd love to see this log.

of course you would tell me how would i do that and keep my anonimity i know ill upload this to the pirate bay and come back after i do this (its the darn holidays bud ) and ill out that
ya no problem

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.

All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.

"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja

you sound liek that guilty guy whom tries to find any reason to sound innocent.

and once said error was found was she not exonertated...all courts make errors now and then...instead fo showing JUST a probelm why not try a solution too

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Amou

said by Amou:

said by Tx:

Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.

All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.

"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja

Quite true, people don't read. If you read policy and understand how the internet works, you wouldn't be in this mess. Ignorance is bliss only works until they put in a law saying that you probably shouldn't leave your door open and next time it happens that excuse won't work and yes unfortunate for your grandmother, the person setting up the network obviously didn't know how to read the manual and set up easy security.

hehe im not even gonna tell you how many ways you prolly infringe someone's intellectual property ina day , that don't sue you....so have a nice day..copyrights with 80 year terms are not about user/consumer/society balance they are a rape of humankind.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to funny0

said by funny0:

said by Tx:

Although not relevant to the issue at hand or discussion, i'd love to see this log.

of course you would tell me how would i do that and keep my anonimity i know ill upload this to the pirate bay and come back after i do this (its the darn holidays bud ) and ill out that
ya no problem

»pastebin.com/


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to funny0

said by funny0:

said by Tx:

Honestly no offence but i'm not reading that... please paragraph next time. That's a mess.

All i read was the first line. Educate yourself on exactly what you said and how really silly it sounds. If you truly understand the internet and how it works your statement is out of left field.

"Don't do illegal things and you're fine" lol. You know my grandmother was accused once for downloading a ubisoft game. She's 92 and can barely play solitaire. That pesky women must have grabbed Assassins creed. I knew she wanted to be a ninja

you sound liek that guilty guy whom tries to find any reason to sound innocent.

and once said error was found was she not exonertated...all courts make errors now and then...instead fo showing JUST a probelm why not try a solution too

That makes no sense. if i got a letter, i'd have no problems admitting to it lol...i guarantee i didn't, considring i do not use the TSI account from home lol

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to OHSrob

said by OHSrob:

You guys need to stop blaming teksavvy and start looking at legal defenses.

Its the law they have to obey it.

Read up on ingress and egress filtering because not every isp practices it is relatively trivial to create fraudulent packets that isp's routers will forward to their destinations causing the device on the other end think it is talking to the fraudulent ip address.

Someone on an isp without filtering or even potentiality the movie trolls themselves can pretend to be a teksavvy customer (even if teksavvy filter's on their own network because it came from another network). As far as the other end is concerned the packets came from teksavvy.

There you go now you guys have the basis to found a defense on.

If your not part of the upcoming lawsuit contact your MP and work on getting the laws changed to be a based in reality. If you getting sued contact your lawyer and get a solid defense ready because your going to need it.

None of my customers have been targeted by voltage but I have still taken measures anyways. (log retention is now only 3 months).

ISP's cant stop logging ip address assignments as there is FAR too many illegal things you can do on the internet and no sane person running an isp would want to turn their network into a safe haven for child predators or child pornographers or terrorists.

Teksavvy are the good guys not the bad guys they are doing everything legally possible to protect you from the copyright trolls.

Every isp should follow the model that teksavvy has put forth.

yup and what have i been trying ot do for them....its the yap yap not listening factor thats funny

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Fuzzy285

said by Fuzzy285:

said by OHSrob:

Read up on ingress and egress filtering because not every isp practices it is relatively trivial to create fraudulent packets that isp's routers will forward to their destinations causing the device on the other end think it is talking to the fraudulent ip address.

Someone on an isp without filtering or even potentiality the movie trolls themselves can pretend to be a teksavvy customer (even if teksavvy filter's on their own network because it came from another network). As far as the other end is concerned the packets came from teksavvy.

So you're saying that someone can forge packets and basically frame someone else. And knowing this to be a fact, your approach is still to retain logs for 3 months. Even though law enforcement investigating serious crimes can get a warrant for your recent logs in less than 48h, you still retain 3 months worth of logs. Not 2 weeks. Not 4 weeks. 3 Months. Just in case someone who's not law enforcement, like say a copyright troll, needs it. Well, at least you're doing your part.

please you realize how hard that actually is and oh nvm i want you to know that it just doesnt happen enough that 2300 tsi users would be affected for the same thing ergo your saying all 2300 were a zombie bot....good luck with that


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by funny0:

said by Tx:

Although not relevant to the issue at hand or discussion, i'd love to see this log.

of course you would tell me how would i do that and keep my anonimity i know ill upload this to the pirate bay and come back after i do this (its the darn holidays bud ) and ill out that
ya no problem

Doesn't get easier then this. »pastebin.com/

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

said by OHSrob:

I think the hysterical part is how out of touch with reality some of the people on this forum are.

Whose out of touch with reality by arguing the very scary nature of being on the hook with the smoking gun and being innocent?

You're the one out of touch with reality as you lack the understanding of just how easy i myself could make you liable for anything without you ever being home. Send me your address and i'll show you reality if you like.

Reality is, those that do not know better are the ones most at risk.

knowing all the lawyers about you just threaten someone ...awww not getting your way tisk tisk grow up and stop being 5. both of you.THIS is one reason i usually dont come here and many others dont either they get threats like this.I however wont be threatened into not posting.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Who7

said by Who7:

Here is a bit of reality.

Thee is no chance in hell that Volatage is doing this by themselves. They will have some if not a pile of support form their movie trolls.

TSI is much more vulnerable financially then the big boys. If any of the big boys decided to fight them, they would not stand a chance. So they go after TSI and set precedence.

TSI by simply rolling over and not putting up any defense of privacy or issues of error or ANY barrier other then "we tried, our hands are tied".

Once precedence is set, the big boys will have an excuse to hand over too without looking like tools.

Given how easy the first volley TSI made it for the money trolls, EXPECT a nice new shiny and very lucrative business model.

If our expectations of privacy is thrown under the bus next month and I expect we will be, there is only ONE way to make TSI and the rest of the industry pay, MIGRATE to companies that keep the minimum records and time. I am currently a customer of TSI but soon will not be. I hope a lot of people will migrate to providers who take the privacy of their customers much more seriously.

good waste money
and time and effort thelonger you go more time it makes the current govt look bad
the next one will get rid of said abilites so enjoy at best a small lil dip in things and my word to everyone

DONT BUY A SINGLE CDR BLANK AGAIN
ya know the kind with a levy


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

1 edit
reply to funny0

said by funny0:

said by Tx:

said by OHSrob:

I think the hysterical part is how out of touch with reality some of the people on this forum are.

Whose out of touch with reality by arguing the very scary nature of being on the hook with the smoking gun and being innocent?

You're the one out of touch with reality as you lack the understanding of just how easy i myself could make you liable for anything without you ever being home. Send me your address and i'll show you reality if you like.

Reality is, those that do not know better are the ones most at risk.

knowing all the lawyers about you just threaten someone ...awww not getting your way tisk tisk grow up and stop being 5. both of you.THIS is one reason i usually dont come here and many others dont either they get threats like this.I however wont be threatened into not posting.

Wasn't a threat, it was a statement to demonstrate the seriousness of how easy something like that can be. You're one to speak Chronos or whatever your original name was. Telling others to grow up.

Oh the irony...

Matt9k

join:2011-09-24
reply to Who7

The "big boys" don't fight.

Remember they're also content providers, if the allow torrenting of the content, do you think they'll they get an extra nice deal for PPV streaming?



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to ptrowski

said by ptrowski:

How many people in this thread have received letters?

I wholesale DSL with TSI, one of my customers did.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

Who7

join:2012-12-18

said by Inssomniak:

said by ptrowski:

How many people in this thread have received letters?

I wholesale DSL with TSI, one of my customers did.



Time for you to act on behalf of your customers.


TraderOne

@teksavvy.com
reply to swampboy

Please post the info if some one can find an ISP who has short log retention. I am considering leaving Teksavvy after three years as its loyal customer. I do not want to gamble when Teksavvy will sell me out in future.


praytorian00

join:2005-05-24
canada
reply to swampboy

Just a question that's a little off topic:
I have DSL with one company but I am logged in with a different company (username) to have the unlimited bandwidth. How would they go about going after you? If they were to go after the one providing the login, you can argue that you're not even on their network. On the other hand if they go after the one providing the network you can say that you're not using that account to login. Just a thought.



dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10

Real short conversation.

You: "Just a thought."
Troll: "Pay up or else."

Mike



tristen1230

join:2010-12-26
Belleville, ON
reply to swampboy

I am really not into this but if it was me who's data which you would think would be private to the eyes which you are not aware of seeing I would be kinda worried and mad especially if nothing is being done by the person in this case Teksavvy.