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Boop

@beanfield.net

If TekSavvi doesn't fight on Jan 14th, I'm leaving them.

So I have been doing some reading. A lot of reading.
At first I thought that Tek were great, with sending notices
and all, being here on the forum. At first I thought that a court
order is, you know, an ORDER, and they have to comply.

Now I know more. Now I know that a company can
and should fight against an unjust court order. It is legal
to fight a court.

I've been a happy client for 4 years.
If TekSavvi stays dormant on Jan 14th I'm leaving.

I don't think the alternatives are any better, but I
will be leaving none the less.
Expand your moderator at work

skinnyp

join:2012-07-16
M1W 3Y0
reply to Boop

Re: If TekSavvi doesn't fight on Jan 14th, I'm leaving them.

me too. I'll give them one more chance. If they decide not to do anything, I'm going.


Hi Ho Hi Ho

@videotron.ca
Where are you two going to?
Expand your moderator at work

koreyb
Open the Canadian Market NOW

join:2005-01-08
East York, ON
Reviews:
·VMedia
·Rogers Hi-Speed

1 edit
reply to Boop

Re: If TekSavvi doesn't fight on Jan 14th, I'm leaving them.

Bye cause no ISP will fight it if ordered by the court. Good luck. Best to cancel and don't have the internet at all. The facts are the laws in Canada on copyright have changed... Teksavvy has not handed over any info yet but asked the court to rule if they should. Teksavvy if ordered to hand the info has no legal right to refuse and if they do they can be sued. The laws have changed and fighting against it at this point is pointless. The judge will rule based on the current new Canadian laws. All isps are the same.. And have Min required log retention requirements set by the new laws
Expand your moderator at work


Boop

@beanfield.net
reply to Hi Ho Hi Ho

Re: If TekSavvi doesn't fight on Jan 14th, I'm leaving them.

No idea, probably somewhere worse.
But I just can't not do it.

donkey

join:2008-04-08
Montreal, QC
reply to Boop
perhaps you should go with the ISP the omnipotent king of all the world and Canada, Harper is with.

Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12
reply to koreyb
said by koreyb:

All isps are the same.. And have Min required log retention requirements set by the new laws

Could you please point us to what the new mandatory time is for data retention? I'm having trouble finding anything other than references to it being discussed as part of the upcoming notice to notice system.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by Fuzzy285:

said by koreyb:

All isps are the same.. And have Min required log retention requirements set by the new laws

Could you please point us to what the new mandatory time is for data retention? I'm having trouble finding anything other than references to it being discussed as part of the upcoming notice to notice system.

I've asked him for this also and i was never answered. There is no minimum. This is giving the wrong and incorrect information out to people.

Also have a read: »www.techdirt.com/articles/201212···ll.shtml

aks_canada

join:2004-11-20
Oakville, ON
reply to Boop
Boop

Why wait until Jan 14? Teksavvy has already stated many times what their position is in this matter. Your threats are meaningless. Vote with your actual call to cancel service.

And please let me know which ISP you have moved to that, in writing, will act as you see fit. They will either disobey a court order, or, spend money on lawyers to defend your rights. How much money do they need to spend before you will be satisfied? Do their officers need to risk their personal finances/freedom to protect your rights? How much money have you personally contributed to help them fight?

How far do they need to go? Provincial Court? Supreme Court?

What ISP promises that they will not give up any IP address until it’s a Supreme Court case? If the Supreme Court orders the release of IP’s, should they release them? I’d love to know of an ISP who will commit business suicide on my behalf.

Fuzzy285

join:2012-12-12

3 recommendations

reply to Tx
Interesting read, even in my eggnog induced stupor.
There's a lot of misconceptions and misinformation flying around. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what my reading of the changes to the Copyright Act tell me:

For one thing, the Act requires that the ISP notify its customers as soon as feasible once it has received notice in writing in a format that meets the criteria of the Act. Not once a motion is filed with the court. Once notice in writing is received by the ISP. Teksavvy's claim that it provided notice even though not required is bunk. They were required to provide notice all the while.

Also, people seem to think they are not being sued yet. Wrong. The John Doe statement of claim was filed with federal court November 14, 2012. According to Federal Court rules, Voltage has 60 days, not counting holidays, to serve the John/Jane Doe defendants. The purpose of the Motion involving Teksavvy that was to be heard Dec/17 was just so that they can effect service against those defendants. In other words, as soon as TSI releases those names/addresses, Voltage willl be serving people. There's no need to file another, separate Statement of Claim, as far as I know. Once served (can be done by mail), a defendant has 30 days to file a defense. Those who don't file a defense risk having default judgement granted against them.

People think they'll get away with only a $100 fine. Not true, once served they MUST file a defense, and that costs money. Only after you defend yourself will Voltage offer any form of settlement or choose to discontinue.

People think TSI has not choice but keep logs for 3 months. Not true, there's no mandatory data retention period, otherwise many anonymous VPN providers wouldn't be located in Canada. What TSI can't do is destroy the logs they already have once they are notified of infringement. And they have to retain them for up to a year for those included in the notification.

People think they are not affected if they didn't get a notice until now or if they are with a different ISP. Not true, these are only 2,000 of the one million IP's that Canipre claims to have collected in the past 6 months for rights holders. They will come knocking on other doors.

Now, back to the eggnog.

cynic10

join:2011-02-05

1 edit
Bravo. Thx you for summarizing it and going straight to the points. Some parts escaped me until this posts, especially these parts which are highly important.

"For one thing, the Act requires that the ISP notify its customers as soon as feasible once it has received notice in writing in a format that meets the criteria of the Act. Not once a motion is filed with the court. Once notice in writing is received by the ISP. Teksavvy's claim that it provided notice even though not required is bunk. They were required to provide notice all the while."

"People think TSI has not choice but keep logs for 3 months. Not true, there's no mandatory data retention period"

"People think they'll get away with only a $100 fine. Not true, once served they MUST file a defense, and that costs money. "

" these are only 2,000 of the one million IP's that Canipre claims to have collected in the past 6 months for rights holders. They will come knocking on other doors."

Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to Boop
Fuzzy285 is right and should dispel how TSI is any way is "doing the right thing". They are looking after their own interest and they are hoping that by looking like they "care", they avoid the bad publicity......or the exodus.

I will also look for whichever service respects my privacy the most. It starts with minimum days of log retention.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

1 recommendation

said by Who7:

Fuzzy285 is right and should dispel how TSI is any way is "doing the right thing". They are looking after their own interest and they are hoping that by looking like they "care", they avoid the bad publicity......or the exodus.

I will also look for whichever service respects my privacy the most. It starts with minimum days of log retention.

Nail on the head. Marc is out to run his business, make money... profits. Made a few friends along the way but at the end of the day they're interests are not about our well being.

So many people will still defend TSI even knowing they wouldn't return the favor. It's odd. If this was real life and my bud didn't help me in a "bar fight" i sure as hell wouldn't have his back next time around.

Like everyone says, vote with actions and your mouths. Next election is a great start. Choose the ISP who has our interests in mind, not to pirate, rather to protect us from trolls.

To be quite honest, if this was an "untitled" company going after 3 people for piracy of their software (which so many dumb people will pirate their software, enter the registration information with real info.) well then go for it.

When it comes to businesses that's new model is to sue the world with what is guaranteed hundreds of anonymous backers then i have an issue with it, especially when it's known for extortion-like practices. This is the issue, not what criminal activity is behind the users. Simply that it's a business like model going after everyone in the masses, exploiting the courts time to scare people in to settlements.


Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to Boop
In one of the posts in another thread, I saw that broadlinenetworks keeps 30 days logs. Which needless to say, I bookmarked.

30 days is a START, not the end yet.

So who keeps less then 30 days?

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to koreyb
said by koreyb:

Bye cause no ISP will fight it if ordered by the court. Good luck. Best to cancel and don't have the internet at all. The facts are the laws in Canada on copyright have changed... Teksavvy has not handed over any info yet but asked the court to rule if they should. Teksavvy if ordered to hand the info has no legal right to refuse and if they do they can be sued. The laws have changed and fighting against it at this point is pointless. The judge will rule based on the current new Canadian laws. All isps are the same.. And have Min required log retention requirements set by the new laws

yea they changed and if you or they actually read them you and tsi would know this is a bad motion to get the ids of people on account its not proper cause no ip addy can be said to be doing commercial aspects just form being in a torrent swarm.

HOWEVER it was nice to see the process early so people could prepare and ask a judge for time. MY bet is voltage might pull back ...

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Tx
said by Tx:

said by Fuzzy285:

said by koreyb:

All isps are the same.. And have Min required log retention requirements set by the new laws

Could you please point us to what the new mandatory time is for data retention? I'm having trouble finding anything other than references to it being discussed as part of the upcoming notice to notice system.

I've asked him for this also and i was never answered. There is no minimum. This is giving the wrong and incorrect information out to people.

Also have a read: »www.techdirt.com/articles/201212···ll.shtml

marc did answer that as did one of his techs and i agree that for loads a reasons you need some time to make sure that if crap happens then you can get to it faster however 3 months is excessive and ill add anythng past a month should be tossed no reason ohter hten your info gathering ....did you pay me for stats gathering? NO then don't do it unless you get me a reduction in cost. im cheap lets make a deal. its my data of my habits.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Fuzzy285
said by Fuzzy285:

Interesting read, even in my eggnog induced stupor.
There's a lot of misconceptions and misinformation flying around. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what my reading of the changes to the Copyright Act tell me:

For one thing, the Act requires that the ISP notify its customers as soon as feasible once it has received notice in writing in a format that meets the criteria of the Act. Not once a motion is filed with the court. Once notice in writing is received by the ISP. Teksavvy's claim that it provided notice even though not required is bunk. They were required to provide notice all the while.

Also, people seem to think they are not being sued yet. Wrong. The John Doe statement of claim was filed with federal court November 14, 2012. According to Federal Court rules, Voltage has 60 days, not counting holidays, to serve the John/Jane Doe defendants. The purpose of the Motion involving Teksavvy that was to be heard Dec/17 was just so that they can effect service against those defendants. In other words, as soon as TSI releases those names/addresses, Voltage willl be serving people. There's no need to file another, separate Statement of Claim, as far as I know. Once served (can be done by mail), a defendant has 30 days to file a defense. Those who don't file a defense risk having default judgement granted against them.

People think they'll get away with only a $100 fine. Not true, once served they MUST file a defense, and that costs money. Only after you defend yourself will Voltage offer any form of settlement or choose to discontinue.

People think TSI has not choice but keep logs for 3 months. Not true, there's no mandatory data retention period, otherwise many anonymous VPN providers wouldn't be located in Canada. What TSI can't do is destroy the logs they already have once they are notified of infringement. And they have to retain them for up to a year for those included in the notification.

People think they are not affected if they didn't get a notice until now or if they are with a different ISP. Not true, these are only 2,000 of the one million IP's that Canipre claims to have collected in the past 6 months for rights holders. They will come knocking on other doors.

Now, back to the eggnog.

thats the rub the notice rules haven't been formalized on how hte govt wants it done , AND instead of going ot the govt and saying they want this done NOW or soon or wait they jumped the gun and tried to bypass that part. NOW they even borked the part about non commercial and commercial up and ill say it this should get tossed UTTERLY and to the rails...too much of this "evidence" has no proof that any commercial aspects could have been done. SO in that regard i'd say in my opinion your name and address mean zero other hten to try and find a numb nut dummy that has no clue and threaten them....that actually is extortion when you dont have any right to be doing it as well as black mail.

these goons called voltage better be careful.hackers already outed all there details.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to funny0
said by funny0:

marc did answer that as did one of his techs and i agree that for loads a reasons you need some time to make sure that if crap happens then you can get to it faster however 3 months is excessive and ill add anythng past a month should be tossed no reason ohter hten your info gathering ....did you pay me for stats gathering? NO then don't do it unless you get me a reduction in cost. im cheap lets make a deal. its my data of my habits.

Absolutely agree... ideally i'd like to see an ISP with 14 days. It's a good diagnostic time, but 30 days as you said would be fair.

Marc i know answered it and that's the issue is that koreyb keeps saying there is a minimum by law which is false and curious where he is getting his info.

He's been asked by a few people now.

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX

1 recommendation

while i am all for privacy the reasons most of you have are Poor, You want license to Steal and have low chance of getting caught I really Dislike the log situation but i KNOW i won;t be getting any emails from any rightsholders Unless they are in error. So i feel good Knowing that i am covered
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by morisato:

while i am all for privacy the reasons most of you have are Poor, You want license to Steal and have low chance of getting caught I really Dislike the log situation but i KNOW i won;t be getting any emails from any rightsholders Unless they are in error. So i feel good Knowing that i am covered

lol the dead guy in the states said the same thing when he got a letter "not in error" about his activities.

You know, they're never wrong and it is after all a license to "steal" lol...

You people that keep saying that have no clue what theft is. You aren't stealing an item, the content still exists where it was, it's not theft, it's not stealing. Good lord people are so high on their pedestals they don't even know the difference.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to morisato
said by morisato:

Dislike the log situation but i KNOW i won;t be getting any emails from any rightsholders Unless they are in error. So i feel good Knowing that i am covered

Sigh... this is what people have been talking about for ages. Let's say you have been notified in error. How much time and money can you afford to spend to prove this? From another thread (my words):

Oddly enough, I think the most vocal people in the threads have not received a letter. I haven't (a-not a TSI customer, b-don't use torrents). However, I know the danger of fishing expeditions like this and hate to think that Voltage could possibly make more money with sending out threatening letters than they did by making movies.

It's been stated over and over, but an innocent person fighting could spend more money than the possible extortion letters could ask for. That's fine for some that can afford to fight, but what about those that can't. Also, any that do pay up just make it more likely they'll do it again, to a larger group.

I've seen a couple of numbers thrown around that says at least 2% of the original people ID'd were incorrect. That doesn't even take into account that some of the IPs may not have been provided correctly in the first place. This is from an ISP that is taking care to make sure those identifications were correct.

Take Rogers, or Cogeco, or Bell... will they be as concerned with getting the identifications correct? If you have an issue with the identification will they be responding promptly to help you. * So, let's see - a million identifications (that's what they claim they have). Could be 20,000 people getting sued under false pretenses. Could be another group that haven't done what they're being accused of... it gets messy.

It's sad really as the media companies likely are spending a fortune to try and stop the process. Research, better licensing, finding a better method to distribute, and everyone might win.

ETA: * sorry I meant to add that ~3 years ago (& 2) I got a notification from Cogeco that definitely wasn't me. A very helpful person in their security department did at least help with an explanation


Adding in, I was lucky that someone at Cogeco looked into it and answered my questions. You think they would be as helpful if a couple of thousand people were asking at once? If you're innocent and they demand say $1000 to drop the suit, could you afford to spend $5000 proving them wrong in court? Remember, as quick as you're ready to throw all people receiving notices as guilty - in front of a judge it's not like a criminal case. They would provide their evidence, your IP/name from TSI, you would say you didn't do it, and it's almost a slam dunk they judge would just assume you're lying.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
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reply to Boop
An added note. It's not the DOWNLOADING as you say "License to steal" though it's NOT theft. It's the distribution of the content. Uploading it after.

You're allowed to so far in Canada download the content. So before you go calling people a burglar lol, please understand the differences and what the current law so far states.


TraderOne

@teksavvy.com
reply to Boop
I have been with Teksavvy for more than 3 yeares. I am leaving too if Teksavvy does not fight for its customers' privacy right and reduce the log retention.


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
reply to koreyb
said by koreyb:

Bye cause no ISP will fight it if ordered by the court. Good luck. Best to cancel and don't have the internet at all.

It's about sending a message. It's about standing up for some principles. Instead of being a sheep and standing around waiting for the knife to get dragged across your throat.

The court order was meant to be fought. That's how our judicial system works.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged

yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4
reply to Boop
For those who are threatening to cancel, how will you go about shopping for a new ISP. I don't believe any other ISP has made their views on this public, and I wouldn't count on a sales rep to know their company's position on this either...