dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
1971
share rss forum feed


ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA

Want to go with a SSD now...

Recently I have found myself having to delete old files to make space for new ones, and this last time I struggled deciding which files I wanted to delete. So it is time to expand my storage space a little.

My growth rate is pretty slow for my 512GB Caviar Black and I thought I would take the SSD plunge on a Samsung 840Pro 256MB Sata III for $269 inc shipping.

This will cause me to re-install my Win7 Pro and distribute some of my more static data onto the SSD. I read in one of the more active threads Koitsu recommending not to fill the SSD over 60% of capacity. OK, I am fine with that.

Anyway, my ASUS board is already 6MB/s capable and I love the USB 3.0 speeds for my backup drives, so I am guessing this drive will fit in quite well. I have a P7P55D-E ASUS mobo supporting an 860.

Before I make the purchase, I wanted to check with you guys first. I want to make sure I am not overlooking anything and this will work without any additional/unforeseen tweaks. (Due to the age of my mobo for example).

Any tips, build reminders, or advice for the once every 5 year system builder? Thanks !



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 edit

I have an ASUS P7P55D Pro motherboard. I currently use it as the basis of a dedicated Media Center system. As I recall, the P7P55D shipped without SATA 6G support and there were subsequent revisions that updated the board design to support SATA 6G. This was likely done with a Marvel controller and it is very unlikely that it will be able to hit the speeds one would expect from something like a native Intel SATA 6G controller. In fact matching an Intel SATA 3G controller might be difficult,....

I bring this up now so that you understand why it is unlikely that you'll be able to achieve the advertised speed of your new SSD.

For what it's worth I just bought a 500GB Samsung 840 from Newegg on sale for about ~$330 plus a free FarCry 3 game download which is a ~$60 value. I think that's a good deal and wouldn't want to spend a one to one ratio on such a drive. I also bought an 240GB Intel 330 not too long ago for ~$140-ish.

I'm just saying a deal is ideal,.....


pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
kudos:2
Reviews:
·ooma
·Google Voice
·Comcast
·Future Nine Corp..
reply to ejg1

said by ejg1:

Recently I have found myself having to delete old files to make space for new ones, and this last time I struggled deciding which files I wanted to delete. So it is time to expand my storage space a little.

My growth rate is pretty slow for my 512GB Caviar Black and I thought I would take the SSD plunge on a Samsung 840Pro 256MB Sata III for $269 inc shipping.

This will cause me to re-install my Win7 Pro and distribute some of my more static data onto the SSD. I read in one of the more active threads Koitsu recommending not to fill the SSD over 60% of capacity. OK, I am fine with that.

Anyway, my ASUS board is already 6MB/s capable and I love the USB 3.0 speeds for my backup drives, so I am guessing this drive will fit in quite well. I have a P7P55D-E ASUS mobo supporting an 860.

Before I make the purchase, I wanted to check with you guys first. I want to make sure I am not overlooking anything and this will work without any additional/unforeseen tweaks. (Due to the age of my mobo for example).

Any tips, build reminders, or advice for the once every 5 year system builder? Thanks !

You can avoid reinstalling and re-activation of your Windows 7 PC ... If your new drive is the same size, or larger than your old drive.

Perform a byte for byte copy of your old drive to the new. I have done this on 2 Windows 7 Ultimate PC's, and no reactivation was necessary. They went from 128 to 256 GB. Before or after you copy, you can change the partition size. Even if the new drive is slightly smaller, just change your partition size to make it slightly smaller.

EVERYTHING will copy, all passwords, all email, everything. I used OSF Clone Disk CLoning Software to copy the drives. No problems. »www.osforensics.com/tools/create···ges.html
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"


ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA

1 edit
reply to Octavean

I just dug out the users guide for the P7P55D-E. Page 1-2 at the bottom says:

True SATA 6Gb/s Support:
Supporting next-generation Serial ATA(SATA) storage interface, this motherboard delivers up to 6.0Gb/s data transfer rates. Additionally, get enhanced scalability, faster data retrieval, double the bandwidth of current bus systems. Refer to page 2-34 for details.

Do you think this text is in error?

Newegg is quoting:
$270 for 256Gb (840 Pro)
$600 for 512Gb (840 Pro)
$380 for 500Gb (840) half speed writes compared to Pro
$200 for 240Gb (Intel 330) random read/write IOPS much slower than Samsung)


pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
kudos:2
Reviews:
·ooma
·Google Voice
·Comcast
·Future Nine Corp..

I paid $139 for some 240 GB SSD drives recently from Newegg on a sale. You'll likely never see the advertised data transfer rates if you test, but SSD drives are far faster than mechanical drives.

The cost of SSD drives has been going down quickly of late.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA
reply to pandora

I thought I remembered something about needing to reactivate in order to reinstall to an alternate drive. Thanks for the confirmation. I dont see myself going for the larger drive so I will just call.

I seem to remember people debating years ago whether to install the OS swap files on the SSD or not. There were all kinds of angles to the debate and I never remember what the people here decided which was best. FWIW, I rarely use system swap at all, if any. How did that debate ever turn out?

Anybody know whether there are any special TRIM concerns when buying one of the Samsung drives? I seem to remember only Intel drives having their act together as it relates to TRIM.



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA
reply to pandora

I was reading some of the reviews on newegg and there were a few posters claiming they were getting very close to the advertised rates. I think many that don’t come close probably never realize something was not right with their setup and then they poo poo the drive. As long as a few say they are getting close I trust the advertisements.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to ejg1

What I am saying is that the P7P55D-E uses an old P55 chipset with no native SATA 6G support. It's early non-Intel SATA solution, which is likely a Marvel solution, probably won't be able to reach the speeds you're expecting it to with the SATA III SSD your intending to use regardless of if its the Pro version of the Samsung 840 or not.

I'm not saying abandon all hope, I'm just saying I think it unlikely you'll realize the full potential (speed) of said SSD without an updated SATA 6G controller like the Z77 has for example.

By all means, give it a shot though,...

Please post benchmarks when you get it running,...



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA

I just looked at the Guide again and it is a Marvel controller. If they tested/rated the controller for 6Gb/s, why would it matter if it is a Marvel or not? On the other hand they probably redesigned the controller for a reason… :-/

I am still willing to go for it.

Btw – I think I will need to buy a case for the drive, right? I am not sure what to search for to get what I need...



berserken

join:2011-03-27
Oakland, CA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast

I bought a Rosewill-rdrd-11005 @ Newegg a couple months ago and I like it. It seems to have gone out of stock almost everywhere, maybe not here: »www.dascheap.com/electronics/ros···ive.html

(rosewill-rdrd-11005-2x-2-5-ssd-hdd-caddy-w-2x-usb-3-0-ports-for-5-25-drive_w300_)

n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA
reply to ejg1

I ran my SSD (120 GB Vertex 3 Max IOPS) off of my board's Marvell chip for well over a year before recently switching it to a port driven from the ICH10 southbridge. Sequential speed is down (but still good, essentially maxing out 3 Gbps SATA), IOPS are similar (maybe a little bit towards the ICH10), and it's MUCH more reliable. On the Marvell controller, my machine would randomly become non-responsive after being left alone for a while. On the southbridge, it's been 100% solid. This is with using nearly every Vertex 3 firmware released, from ~2.02 (whatever the V3 launched with) up to 2.25.

Using the Marvell controller, I usually saw 370-380 MB/sec max through it. On the southbridge, it's about 100 MB/sec below that.

The Samsung drives may be more forgiving with the Marvell controller than my Vertex 3 was. I haven't tried one yet so I have no idea. I'd be a little more wary of the Intel drive on the Marvell controller, as that one's SandForce-based and may still carry that issue along with it.

Here's an article addressing that hardware. It's old, but it may be worth a read.

tl;dr - I'd go with connecting it to a non-Marvell port. Seat-of-the-pants feel will probably be the same, and it'll pretty much be bulletproof.
--
KI6RIT



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 edit

Thanks for that. I think you're touching on the subject matter that I was trying to get to. The article you linked to is one I have read before and I think it probably did a good job of describing the issue at the time. There could have been improvements since then though and one would expect that there were.

Generally speaking I try to avoid such controllers when ever possible. My old ASUS P8P67 Pro (LGA1155) and quasi new ASUS P9X79 Deluxe (LGA2011) both have native Intel SATA 6G support so I would choose to use that when needed. There are Marvel SATA 6G controllers on both boards but they largely go unused.

I'd be very surprised if a new SATA III SSD like the Samsung 840 (pro or non-pro) would be able to hit its top rated performance on such an early Marvel controller. If I were to guess (and I don't like to guess) your cited 370-380 MB/sec would probably be a good ball park.

***edit***

A good ballpark with the possibility of oddities and maybe stability issues to boot. I say this only because I've come across more then a few user complaints over the years in forums.



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA

I just went over that article and all the reader comments that went along with it. It sounds like I would be rolling the dice if I reached for the 370-380Mb/s and had stability issues with the Marvell. Probably more than rolling the dice since nobody has popped up to say they “did not” have any issues with stability.

Now if I connected to a non-Marvell port for the sake of stability, would a 270-280/Mb/s speed (a 100mb/s drop) do my money justice with the Samsung Pro? I don’t think so. I don’t think I want to pay the Samsung Pro premium when I might just want to try and match the SSD speed with that of a different drive.

With my P7P55D, what would be the next port of choice to connect the drive to? Others have mentioned it, but I don’t know which it would be.

Another question, is there a PCI board that can be bought to weasel around this problem?



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

I've wanted the RocketRAID 2720SGL card for a while:

HighPoint RocketRAID 2720SGL PCI-Express 2.0 x8 Low Profile SATA / SAS Controller Card 159.99

It's a PCIe x8 card so motherboards that are not based on something like the Intel X58 or X79 chipset will have their video subsystem dropped to x8 speeds.

It supports up to eight SATA or SAS 6Gbps drives. You’ll need a SFF-8087 mini-SAS to SATA breakout cable to use it with a SATA SSD.

When SATA 6G and USB 3.0 capable motherboards started to hit the market I wanted to see what I was missing by buying a Lynnfield Core i7 860 and ASUS P7P55D Pro at the day of launch (without these features). The ASUS U3S6 card seemed like a good bet:

»www.asus.com/Motherboards/Accessories/U3S6/

But I started to hear similar speed limiting issues and things like it not even being bootable. So I don't honestly know if there is a good cheap solution in part due it not really seeming worth the effort.

Still a SATA III SSD on a native Intel SATA 3G or Marvel SATA 6G controller should still feel fast. You'll know you're on an SSD.


n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA
reply to ejg1

The Marvell-driven ports are the gray/white ones up near the RAM slots. The black port near the bottom is driven from the JMicron SATA/IDE controller. The six blue ones are driven by the Intel chipset.

The second PCIe x16 slot runs at x4 speeds, with or without a video card in the first x16 slot. Since they're PCIe 2.0, there should be plenty of bandwidth for a SATA controller card if you decide to get one.

If you want to try out the Marvell, it should be relatively painless. I was able to swap my SSD between the Intel and Marvell ports without Windows freaking out. I had both of them set to AHCI mode.

There's an IO Level Up option in the Tools section in the BIOS. That will let you divert some of the primary PCIe x16 slot lanes to either the USB 3.0 or SATA 6 Gbps controllers (it lets you pick which one). You could give that a try as well, and you'll probably see minimal to no drop in graphics performance.

Another SSD to look for if you don't need the absolute fastest one is the Crucial M4. I've played with the 64 GB version at work and it runs quite well. The larger capacity ones are even faster. The Corsair Neutron drives look decent as well, but a bit more expensive if you go with the GTX model.

One thing to keep in mind with rated IOPS with SSDs is that those are typically done at high I/O queue depths (up to 32). Most user workloads are at lighter queue depths (5 or less). Good SSD reviews will test for both.
--
KI6RIT



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA
reply to Octavean

I don't know whether I can use the Rocket Raid card or not.
1) Docu of the card says “bios boot to raid”. Well, what if I don’t care about raid? Can I still bios boot off a single SSD? My knowledge is obviously limited here so if somebody can set me straight that would be nice.

2) Second issue is that a seemingly knowledgeable guy posted in the reviews “There is a strong possibility that, if you're on a socket 1155/1156 motherboard, you could experience issues with this RAID card. It isn't specific to this card; a higher-dollar LSi or Areca RAID card would have the same issues as well.” (This comment concerns me and is enough to keep me away from the card).

3) I have slots 1-4 available as noted below. I am assuming slot 2 is the one this would go in?

Slots (from top down)
1 PCIe X1_1
2 PCIe 2.0x16_1 (blue at x16 link)
3 PCIe X1_2
4 PCI 1
5 PCIe 2.0x16_2 (taken by graphics card, black at x4 link)
6 PCI 2 (blocked by graphics card)
7 PCIe X1_3 (graphics card may also be in the way)

As for the ASUS U3S6, I also don’t see this card is BIOS bootable. That is a deal killer for me. There are other issues but I wont bother listing them if I cant get through the bootable issue.

Anyway, this pushes be back to the Marvell controller unless somebody has any better ideas.



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA
reply to n_w95482

"The Marvell-driven ports are the gray/white ones up near the RAM slots. The black port near the bottom is driven from the JMicron SATA/IDE controller. The six blue ones are driven by the Intel chipset.

The second PCIe x16 slot runs at x4 speeds, with or without a video card in the first x16 slot. Since they're PCIe 2.0, there should be plenty of bandwidth for a SATA controller card if you decide to get one."


I think I have a different orientation of slots than what you describe. Mine is the P7P55D-E. (not EVO) My post previous to this one maps out all my slots.

I saw that IO Level Up capability and graphics performance is one of my lower priorities. Right now I am soul searching whether to get a drive with slower speeds and not pay the premium for the higher speeds on the more recent SSD drives. I noticed there is not that much price difference between the Samsung Pro 256 and that of one of the OCZ drives with half the speed which better matchs the tested speed of the Marvell controller.

Since there is not that much difference in price, the faster drive is at least better to carry over to a future system. I dont know. I guess I will sleep on this again tonight.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to ejg1

Experimentation is admirable IMO, try the Marvel controller to see how it performs. If You're displeased with the stability of the Marvel controller try the Intel controller.

Generally speaking I do like to experiment but not in this case so for my purposes I would honestly just use the Intel controller and call it a day.

In the case of a SATA III SSD being limited by the available controllers on the Asus P7P55D-E, I just don't think it's a scab that needs to be picked at. A decent SSD even running at SATA II speeds is still noticeably fast. At some point down the line I would install the SSD on a future build that would allow it to run full speed.

I was looking at the HighPoint RocketRAID 2720SGL for my own purposes which is why it came to mind so quickly. It does have JBOD support as well as Windows, Linux and OS X support. I had intended to use it for a 4x240GB RAID 0 array for quasi 1TB SSD storage but upon learning that the LGA2011 platform should gain TRIM support for RAID 0 it made it a complicated matter.


id09542

join:2002-04-25
Bloomington, IL
reply to ejg1

If you reinstall Win 7, make sure you set in BIOS the AHCI mode for the SATA ports. 60% capacity is bit wasteful, you should be comfortable going up to 90%. With the Marvil controller in your motherboard it may be something to test using one of you SATA II ports instead, each is a trade-off of some sort. With Windows 7, you will want to run Samsung's Magician software to handle the GC and Trim. Windows 8 does shine here, it has native GC and Trim support built-in.
Good luck, you will notice the difference.



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA

Thanks Octavean,

I know what to do to use the Marvell controller but how about the Intel controller? How do I gain access to the intel controller? I have not noticed it mentioned at least in the users guide. Is it listed somewhere under a special name?

Thanks 9542,

I got the 60% thing from one of our resident experts in a different post. Hopefully I did not take his information out of context. Koitsu has been here a long time and I tend to follow his recommendations. He does his homework and works in the field. I obviously don’t.


n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA

1 edit
reply to ejg1

Click for full size
P7P55D-E manual page 2-2
I pulled that info from the manual for the P7P55D-E. Your description matches what I saw listed. Ideally you would use the video card in the top x16 slot (blue one) and use any SATA PCIe cards in the black one.

On the above picture, #11 are the Intel ports, 10 (and 9) are the JMicron ports, and 8 are the Marvell ports. The Intel ones should be turned on by default.

I second Octavean See Profile's suggestion. About the only time you'll notice any difference in speed is when doing big sequential transfers, and it will still be fast regardless. The biggest improvement with SSDs are with random access performance, and any SATA-equipped system will see big gains (even 1.5 Gbps).
--
KI6RIT


ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA

Ok so considering all the information up till now…

Option 1, is to buy a Samsung Pro 256Gb SSD and run it through the Marvell. Test the throughput and compare it to the throughput of running it off the Intel SATA II ports. Total cost $269. Pros: drive can be taken to future build Cons: Pay todays price premium for the drive and only reap ½ the potential performance. It is possible this drive gets antiquated by the time I get to my next build.

Option 2, do the same as above except with an OCZ Vertex-2 240Gb SATA II drive for $140. Pros: Save $130 for most likely the same performance as what I would get with the Samsung in either scenario of option 1. Cons: Harder to take the drive to an existing build because by the time I want to do a new build, this drive will be too antiquated anyway.

Option 3, I still have not explored. I know a guy selling two 500Gb Raptors for $140 which WD says has transfer rates of 200MB/S. If I raid these two together would not they at least match/exceed the OCZ Vertez which has 285 seq read and 275 seq write? The raptors are listed as SATA III drives. My P7P55D-E Users guide also says my board has “Intel Matrix Storage Technology supporting SATA RAID 0,1,5 and 10" on the Intel P55 chipset.

I am assuming this RAID on my MB is SATA II since it is going through the P55 and since the Raptors are SATA III does this mean this option wont work? Anybody have any insight into this?



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

I've run a 4x60GB RAID 0 SSD array on an Intel SATA 3G controller and was able to hit a max of 890 MB/s seq:

»SSD Raid 0 Array 4x60GB Setup Test Run

For what it's worth I don't think Raptors will feel anything like an SSD even in a RAID 0 array.



FizzyMyNizzy

join:2004-05-29
New York, NY

1 edit
reply to ejg1

I vote for option 4. Don't get anything. Until you are getting your next upgrade.

In the meantime you could enjoy this samsung SSD song:

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-d-rRkV4fo


ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA
reply to Octavean

So you ran tests of
1 Kingston SSD
2 Kingston SSDs in Raid0
3 Kingston SSDs in Raid0
3 Kings+1OCZ Agility in Raid0
all on the onboard Intel SATA II ports.

This brings me back to one of my previous questions. Has anybody used the onboard Intel SATA RAID built into the P7P55D-E board? If I read your test properly I may be able to on-board RAID two OCZs for the same throughput as the Samsung Pro. I will try googling to see if anybody has feedback on my boards RAID.

Fizzy-The reason I am doing this is I need more disk space and dont see my present system being obsolete for many years yet. When I built the system, SSDs were very pricy at low capacities so I went the small WD route thinking I would upgrade later when prices subside. That time is now.



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA

I think I have my answer.

I found a post exactly fitting my needs over on the Toms threads: »www.tomshardware.com/forum/28472···hci-raid

Quote:
It is certainly possible to boot from a RAID 0 volume. I use the P7P55D-E and set up two disks in a RAID 0 config on the Intel controller. However, this I did before installing Windows 7 (Home Premium). I did not have to load RAID drivers - Windows picked it up straight away and I did not have the slightest problem installing the operating system or booting from it.

What this means to me is if I buy 2xOCZ Vertex-2 240Gb SATA II drive for $140 and Raid0 them I would pay just about the same as a single Samsung Pro 512. My throughput would be about the same as the rated Samsung and I would not be throttled by the Marvell at SATA II speeds as many posters experienced. This setup should take me out at least another 5 years into the future. From there forward, I will continue to rely on USB3.0 for backups.

Anything I may have overlooked?



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2
reply to ejg1

There was some talk over on the HardOCP forums regarding the 840 vs. 840 Pro SSDs. The general consensus is that the 840 despite the fact that it uses TLC (Triple-Level Cell NAND) and because of that there is a chance for reduced lifetime, for most users the life of the 840 SSD will far outlive the life of the machine that it's installed in.

Write speeds are a bit reduced as versus the 840 Pro but I too compared the numbers and 95% of the users out there (at least this is my opinion) won't notice the difference.

Samsung 840 Series TLC 250GB SSD Review @ HardOCP Forums
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)



ejg1

join:2004-12-01
Pacifica, CA
reply to Octavean

Hey Octavean,

When you did your progression of SSD raid testing, where there any concerns about how TRIM gets managed once two or more drives got put into an array?

That is, I seem to remember the TRIM topic getting complicated for those wanting to RAID their final SSD build. Would I have anything to worry about there?



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

Generally speaking I view SSD units as I would video cards. I think it best to buy the fastest single video card one can afford rather then two or more lower-end cards to SLI or XFire together.

From my experience I haven't seen much in the way of performance degradation due to a lack of TRIM support in a RAID 0 array. This was likely due to aggressive garbage collection or the fact that I didn't thrash the drives with a lot of writes / erasures.

The Kingston SSDNow V series SNV425-S2 model does very well maintaining performance with or without TRIM as was outlined in the pcper.com review I linked to in the SSD Raid 0 Array 4x60GB thread. This is partly why I was comfortable trying the Array in the first place. It was never the fastest SSD out there but it was resilient and consistent.

I'm transitioning to newer hardware like the X79 and possibly Z77 or its successor Haswell LGA1150. This hardware negates the issue of TRIM in a RAID 0 array because presumably Intel has and will support TRIM in such configurations.