Topic '[WIN8] Search sucks' in forum 'Microsoft Help' - dslreports.com

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:06:39 EDT

Mele20 posted :

It's ironic that users complaining that Windows 8 requires a learning curve to use want to complicate processes for non-power users.

Oh, come on! You know full well that Win 8 is SIMPLE to use for non-power users. That is who it is designed for. It is NOT designed for COMPUTER users (i.e. "power" users).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:59:16 EDT

Mele20 posted :

said by Kramer:

It is possible after telling Windows to index those locations, you didn't give it enough time me to do so. Try your experiment again.

I noticed when I first wanted to try the search for a system32 file that it was still indexing so I didn't do it. I waited awhile, then checked, and it looked like it had finished indexing "system" and "system32" files. So, I did that search for "sapi.dll" and it found nothing until I checked "system files" under non-indexed. But it looks like you were right. I guess it was "resting" from indexing and I thought it was finished. It had paused, I suppose, because of other activity on the computer.

So, just now, I tried the search for "sapi.dll" from Windows Explorer and it found a bunch of files almost immediately. :)

Why does it have a non accessible Start Menu as Indexed? There is NO start menu! Besides, why in the world would you want the Start Menu indexed if there was one? The Start Menu on XP, which is excellent (and should be on Win 8), is alphabetized and in neat columns. It is extremely easy to find what I need. Why would it need indexing? On Win 8, which is obviously designed only for very young users who never go "blank" on recalling instantly the name of every single program they have ever installed or recalling the exact name of all OS files accessible from Start Menu, you have to type (moving your hand off the mouse where mine is glued most of the time) the name of the program in a search box. That is so unintuitive (besides being something that really works against folks as they get older or they are very tired, sleepy, sick and can't recall the name of one of hundreds of programs they have)!
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Sun, 30 Dec 2012 01:31:15 EDT

mmainprize posted : What third party search programs are you guys using, if you don't like Win8 Search.

I tried Everything search, it has not been updated for Win8 yet so it has the UAC windows when it starts. That can be bypassed with a shortcut tweak.
»www.voidtools.com/download.php.

This is very fast search compared to Win 8 search.

Sat, 29 Dec 2012 21:51:28 EDT

Dude111 posted :

quote:
The purpose of Search is to find items that most users ("the rest of the world") need to find, i.e. non-system files; so that they don't get hundreds of hits they don't need.

Thats gotta be why Windows Search ignores some system stuff by default then.. Thank you for explaining this,makes sense!!

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:34:26 EDT

digitalfutur posted : The purpose of Search is to find items that most users ("the rest of the world") need to find, i.e. non-system files; so that they don't get hundreds of hits they don't need. Power users can always find a workaround to get exactly what's needed, as your excellent post demonstrates.

It's ironic that users complaining that Windows 8 requires a learning curve to use want to complicate processes for non-power users.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:47:11 EDT

plencnerb posted : I did some testing this morning on my Windows 8 system.

From desktop mode, if I press the Windows Key + F, I am thrown back into Metro, and what I see is shown in Picture #1. I did a general search for all DLL's (*.dll), which came back with nothing.

I then closed out of that, and went back to desktop mode, and did the search from inside Windows Explorer (the search box near the top right of the window). See Picture #2, and the box is indicated by the red arrow. I did not have to make any changes (that I know of) for that box to show up.

If I then do a search for all DLL's (*.dll), the results are shown in Picture #3.

If I click on the Search Tab in the explorer Window, and then advanced files, I see the following options (see picture #4). As another confirmation of this, I went and looked at the Folder Options again, and went to the Search Tab (see Picture #5). I have not made any changes to either screen, so I would assume that is what the defaults look like.

Finally, I did search for "sapi.dll" from Windows Explorer. It took a bit, due to the system files not being indexes, but I did find 8 results (see picture #6).

So, as far as I can tell, the Search Feature inside of Windows Explorer (again, shown in Picture #2) does work as expected to find any file on the hard drive.

I then went to try to figure out what needed to be changed to get similar results to show up when I search using the Windows Key + F option.

My first place to look was the "Indexing Options" from inside of Control Panel. Since I'm not sure exactly where that is, I did a search inside of Control Panel. My results are shown in Picture #7. The option I was looking for is indicated by the red arrow.

Clicking on that I get the Index Options window. Clicking the "Modify" button gives me the "Indexed Locations" window, as shown in Picture #8. As you can see, the only item that is indexed are files/folders inside of the Users directory.

Before making any changes, I did a test again with the Windows Key + F search, and went looking for .jpg files. Sure enough, I found 198 files (Picture #9). I then went to a new explorer window, and went to the User directory, and did a similar search from there. Sure enough, I am able to find 198 JPG files contained in C:\Users (Picture #10). Well, Windows Explorer Search in the pic shows 199, as I am making the screen shots for this post as I go along! :) But, the point is, the searches match exactly.

So, I then went back to the Indexing Options, and added a check mark next to the Windows Folder, and then hit the OK button.

The "items indexed" number started to climb. I let it get to just over 20,000 and I went back to the Metro Search (Windows Key + F), and did my *.dll search again. My results are shown in Picture #11.

Since I did not let the index operation complete (its still running), that is why only 639 DLL's were found instead of the over 20,000 that I found using the search inside of Windows Explorer.

However, I feel that this proves what is being searched inside of Metro (Windows Key + F). It will only search indexed locations. This somewhat goes along with what I read in the Windows Help section "Indexing and Search: Frequently asked questions ".

quote:
Which file and folder locations are indexed?

Your libraries, email, and offline files are indexed by default. Folders that typically store program and system files aren’t indexed, because most people don’t need to search these very often.

Reading the above tells me that in Microsoft's eyes, "Most" people are only searching for things that would be in your user folder (Pictures, Movies, documents, and so on). The "Typical user" won't be looking for EXE's, DLL's, or other system files. This is probably why the search from inside of Metro only uses the Indexed locations. This would also go along with the fact that when a user presses Windows Key + F, you are put inside of Metro to do the search, and not placed into a search on the desktop (similar to what did happen in Windows 7). Most users (even the ones that are not to tech savvy), know about Windows Key + F to find stuff. Also knowing that Microsoft is trying to "push" Metro on everyone, it would be logical in their eyes (yes..Logical to them, not to the rest of the world) to keep you in Metro when you search, and only return things that a "Typical User" would be looking for....which of course is how the default indexed files are setup: Everything in the Users directory.

To get Metro Search to work just like the Windows Explorer Search, you just have to modify what folders are indexed. To get an exact match, you would then just index your entire hard drive.

Of course, Microsoft does not recommend you doing this :)

quote:
Can I index my entire PC so all searches are fast?

It's not recommended to index all of the files and folders on a PC. If you make the index too large, or if you include system file locations (such as the Program Files folder), your searches will get slower. It’s best to add only those folders that you search a lot.

I do not know enough about the Windows Search overhead in doing such a thing. But, if you had a system with enough CPU and RAM, and a large enough hard drive to hold the index information, I don't really see what harm it would cause. Sure, it may take a LONG time to set the index up initially, but at least then both searches (Windows Explorer, and Metro / Windows Key + F) would return the same results and work exactly the same.

Sorry for the length of this post, and all the pictures, but I hope it helps you see the differences between "Explorer Search" and "Metro Search", and how best to set things up to work the way you would expect them to.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail

#1
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#9
#10
#11

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Sat, 29 Dec 2012 09:53:22 EDT

Kramer posted : Wish I had an answer for you. I am away from a computer for a few days and only have this old Android tablet to look at. I will look at it, but I doubt I will see anything more than you do. From what you observed it looks like MS doesn't index system files regardless of what you specify. It is possible after telling Windows to index those locations, you didn't give it enough time me to do so. Try your experiment again.

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Sat, 29 Dec 2012 03:37:54 EDT

Mele20 posted : THAT'S COOL. Thanks for explaining how to get to the advanced options Explorer search. I added System and System32 files to be Indexed and removed some that Win 8 was indexing by default.

Indexing System and System32 files made no difference when I did a search from Metro. Nothing was found.

I added System/System 32 files to indexing. Then I did a search of the whole computer for sapi.dll. Took a long time and found NOTHING. So, I checked "system files" under NON Indexed in Advanced Options and it found a number of files named "sapi.dll" almost instantly. I'm confused. If System files are now indexed then why do I have to check system files under NON indexed to get a valid search?
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:36:24 EDT

Dude111 posted :

quote:
I have read a lot of praise for Win 8 search from the Metro screen. I think it is horrible. It can't find files! It returns zero results for "hiberfil.sys" for instance. What good is if it can't find files?

Maybe the file is in a folder thats ignored by Windows Search Mele??

On Win98se for example my windows search IGNORES A COUPLE SYSTEM DIRECTORIES!! (HISTORY being one of them)

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:39:29 EDT

Kramer posted : That's funny because I was just playing with it in WIN8. WINKEY-F will not locate system files. I assume that is because it is only looking in indexed locations. The Windows folder is not typically an indexed location, although I see no reason why you couldn't add it if you wanted to. With ClassicShell you have a search window that I am not sure how to get there (if you can) from a stock WIN8 install. It appears as below. It has the Computer icon which lets you search the entire computer indexed or not. There must be a way to get the below screen in a stock WIN8 install, but I'm not sure how you get there.

Edit: I think I found the way to get there. Open up an Explorer screen in Windows 8 (Winkey-E). Now while in Explorer hit the F3 function key or click in the search computer box and the search tools become available.

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:06:41 EDT

plencnerb posted : I did a quick test in Windows 7 in regards to Windows Search with the Windows Key + F.

If I press Windows Key + F, I get the standard search box. I then go looking for *.dll. I'm not sure exactly where I'm searching, but it comes up with zero items.

I know that cannot be possible to have ZERO dll's on a windows system. So, I notice that I can search again in a few places. One of them is "Computer".

I click that, and then the screen changes and you can see that I find tons of DLL's now.

So the question is, where is Windows + F looking by default? It cannot be the computer, but where is it looking? If I change and do a search for *.jpg, I get back over 10,000 items (see Picture #3)

My point is, I believe "Windows Search" via Windows Key + F does work, if you tell it to search the proper place.

Again, I'm not sure where that is "by default", and maybe that's the problem?

Again, this is in Windows 7. If I get some time later today, I'll boot over to Windows 8 and see if the same is true there.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail

Picture #1
Picture #2
Picture #3

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 08:23:09 EDT

GILXA1226 posted :

said by Mele20:

And Metro search doesn't search files at all even though it claims it does.

I think you missed the part where Metro search only searched files on the Desktop, not through the entire hard drive. One thing to keep in mind 'Metro' or whatever MS wants us to call it, it designed for, IMHO, non-power users/tablet users. How many times can you remember where Uncle Johny wanted to find hidden files on his MS Surface device? The full harddrive search is still there, it's just buried to keep the average Joe user from using it and potentially doing something bad.

This is one place where I'm not liking Windows 8, it's much too cumbersome for a power user in my mind.
--
We don't give a d@mn for the whole state of Michigan... we're from OHIO! O!H! ... I!O!

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:53:41 EDT

Mele20 posted : Explorer seems to search hidden files (after you unhide them) in Win 8 but it is hit and miss if it finds them. And Metro search doesn't search files at all even though it claims it does.

You should put Agent Ransack on a thumb drive or something and use it to find files on a user's computer. The GUI for it is very much like XP's search GUI...the imported W2000 search GUI for XP that many of us installed years ago...not the regular XP search GUI.

I know where my files are for music, photos, etc. And I know where my program files are. It is usually a system file I am looking for when I use search.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 06:18:33 EDT

Shootist posted : Windows Search feature has Sucked since Win XP. And even in XP it was hit and miss. It is more geared to people looking for an email or Text in some type of document then finding files on a computer. They have also Restricted it to NOT Looking in any system folders. The User does Not Need to look, or see what is in, those system folders. At least with XP you could set it to search in hidden and system folder.

Problem comes up for me when I'm working on someone else's computer. I have different search programs but they do not. What a pain in the Butt.
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 02:59:28 EDT

Mele20 posted :

said by urbanriot:

He may be complaining about the long standing issue with Windows Search since Vista, where it randomly won't find files. You're in a folder with the file you can clearly see, yet typing the name of that file or *.extension and you get "No items match your search."

Myself and plenty of other people have been posting about this for years in Microsoft's official forums and were once told it was fixed in one of the Vista SP's but imagine my surprise when I came across it in Windows 7 then again recently in Windows 8.

There's no explanation for it and you can run through a pile of steps and not resolve the issue... then you forget about it and later it works.

Yeah, I noticed that right away in Vista. Vista search was really awful generally speaking...but also sometimes, as you said, I could see the file right there but search would report "no items match your search". I stumbled on a Microsoft blog where there were about 500 replies regarding the topic which was Vista search. Most of the folks replying were IT professionals and they were beyond angry at Microsoft about how bad search is in Vista.

Several of them stated they installed Agent Ransack in order to get a decent search on Vista. That was the first I had heard of Agent Ransack. I downloaded the free version onto Vista and loved it. I never again used Vista search. I was appalled when I got the public beta of Win 7 and found search was no better in Win 7 than in Vista. The file was right there, I could see it yet Win 7, like Vista, would report "no items match your search". After the beating the Microsoft blog guy took over Vista search and his promises that Microsoft would make it better in Win 7, I was really surprised that I had to install Agent Ransack on Win 7 also in order to get a fast, thorough search like I would with the native W2000/XP search.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 02:49:39 EDT

Mele20 posted :

said by digitalfutur:

The Search feature in the Modern UI is designed to search across apps and files on the desktop as well as apps in the Windows Store, something that the classic Search can't do.

All that has changed is how to access classic Search.

But the search on Metro does NOT find files. It finds Metro apps. It said there was no such file "hiberfil.sys". zIt said there was no such file as "Atmfd.dll". Metro search is obviously designed to ignore all system files when it searches and it is usually system files that I want to locate. Now that I installed GodMode, I should never need to use Metro search especially since I uninstalled almost all Metro apps and I can use GodMode to locate most things that I might have tried to use Metro search for. GodMode is a godsend.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 23:04:16 EDT

urbanriot posted :

said by BlitzenZeus:

While the metro search is useless, explorer search still works. I picked my computer, and searched. I didn't even have to select the disk, apparently you're doing it wrong, or didn't uncheck the right option in the folder options.

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 21:04:00 EDT

digitalfutur posted : The Search feature in the Modern UI is designed to search across apps and files on the desktop as well as apps in the Windows Store, something that the classic Search can't do.

All that has changed is how to access classic Search.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 17:47:22 EDT

Mele20 posted : I didn't know that the size of hiberfil.sys is based on the amount of RAM installed. So, I learned something. Thanks!

I'm only using 25% of available RAM but if I install virtual machines then that will quickly change.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 08:56:25 EDT

BlitzenZeus posted : Because no software on this system in total even begins to actually use half of the installed ram, and that even includes one 64-bit program which itself has used upwards of 2GB alone. There's no need to have a ton of ram installed at this time, and that files size is based on the amount of ram you have installed.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 08:04:54 EDT

GILXA1226 posted :

said by Mele20:

I wonder why my hiberfil.sys file is twice as large as yours?

You probably have twice as much physical RAM.
--
We don't give a d@mn for the whole state of Michigan... we're from OHIO! O!H! ... I!O!

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 07:19:31 EDT

Mele20 posted : Hmm...I'm not sure what I did wrong earlier...and I tried more than once then.

It seems to work fine now. I even searched for this file "Atmfd.dll" and it quickly found 10 items.

But that Metro search is crappy. You would think that if you did a "file" search from Metro that it would find these files...geez....

I wonder why my hiberfil.sys file is twice as large as yours?

Something related to search that I REALLY LIKE is GodMode on Win 8. I just installed it. I wish I had done that when I first got this machine. I had forgotten about GodMode as it didn't work very well on XP.

--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:19:20 EDT

BlitzenZeus posted : While the metro search is useless, explorer search still works. I picked my computer, and searched. I didn't even have to select the disk, apparently you're doing it wrong, or didn't uncheck the right option in the folder options.

[WIN8] Search sucks

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 05:49:08 EDT

Mele20 posted : I have read a lot of praise for Win 8 search from the Metro screen. I think it is horrible. It can't find files! It returns zero results for "hiberfil.sys" for instance. What good is if it can't find files?

So, I go to Desktop, and then Windows Explorer (with the horrible ribbon junk), and search from there. It can't find 'hiberfil.sys", for instance, either! In order to find a Windows file, I have to already know which disk the file resides on. Then I have to search from that disk (not a general search of the entire disk or all disks which is what I want) but I have to go to Windows section of the C drive and then search just within it to find the damn file.

To me this is extremely convoluted and ridiculous. With XP, and W2000 style search, that I installed many years ago on XP, I just do a search of all files and folders including hidden ones (that, of course, I unhid) on whichever disk, or all disks, that I specify and can find ANYTHING quickly with ONE search only.

Is there some way to do this natively in Win 8? Or do I have to install Agent Ransack (like you have to on Vista and Win 7) to have a decent fast search similar to XP/2000 search that actually finds what you are looking for?
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Topic '[WIN8] Search sucks' in forum 'Microsoft Help' - dslreports.com

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

&nbsp;

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

&nbsp;

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

Re: [WIN8] Search sucks

[WIN8] Search sucks