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pandora
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Do high end custom PC's have a future?

I enjoy assembling a PC from components. I realize due to standards, it's more assembly than building.

At the same time, I see so many people satisfied with weak laptops or very weak tablets. Weak in terms of graphics and cpu compared to a desktop.

Sometimes I wonder why AMD and Nvidia still make high end video cards. Is the market for custom desktops and small servers large enough to justify continued mass production of components?
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"



Ghastlyone
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join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
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said by pandora:

I enjoy assembling a PC from components. I realize due to standards, it's more assembly than building.

At the same time, I see so many people satisfied with weak laptops or very weak tablets. Weak in terms of graphics and cpu compared to a desktop.

Sometimes I wonder why AMD and Nvidia still make high end video cards. Is the market for custom desktops and small servers large enough to justify continued mass production of components?

You might see other people satisfied with sub par gaming computers, but a lot of others do not. There's a huge PC enthusiast market out there.

Do you play anything other then World of Warcraft? Load up Guild Wars 2, Borderlands 2 or Arkham City with Physx set to High. Try the Witcher 2 on Ultra settings.

Wait until the new Crysis comes out in February. I can bet it'll destroy most lower end gaming PC's.


kvn864

join:2001-12-18
Sun City, AZ
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reply to pandora

I wonder sometimes what would be a percentage of those geeks like people reading this post, wanting 400 dollars video cards in their computers, compared to all PC users. Dedicated graphics will always be present, because no integrated video will satisfy someone who wants solid 3d gaming (and otherwise) performance. I think there will always be market for high power GPUs.



Krisnatharok
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reply to pandora

The existence of the plethora of PC building companies (Falcon NW, Xotic, Cyberpower, iBuyPower, etc.) indicates the market is there.
--
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El Quintron
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reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

You might see other people satisfied with sub par gaming computers, but a lot of others do not. There's a huge PC enthusiast market out there.

Agreed,

Gamers, Editors, Propagation modellers (to name a few) all require high end machines to do what they do properly.

High end gear will alway find folks who can use it, and abuse it, in new and exciting ways.
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El Quintron
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reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

The existence of the plethora of PC building companies (Falcon NW, Xotic, Cyberpower, iBuyPower, etc.) indicates the market is there.

I agree with this as well, I'd add that stores like NCIX, Newegg, Canada Computers, Tiger Direct all carry high end components as well, is a pretty good indicator of the viability of this market.
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Ghastlyone
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reply to pandora

If you read reviews on most online stores such as Amazon, Newegg, etc. there are more reviews on the top end PC hardware then there are the low end hardware.

I'd even argue that this industry is even larger now days then in the past.



FizzyMyNizzy

join:2004-05-29
New York, NY
reply to pandora

This is more about what that person like. Some people like it high end, some like it mix. Just like cars. Some like the new model, some like the fast one and drive it in the traffic jam city. Every one cup of tea is different. For me... I use to be a mid guy. I try the low end stuff, just doesn't work out for me. Mid is ok... but still missing a little more power.

Also, home. Some like to have a house, some like apartment, some like a castle.

I think most corp use high end video card. From Graphics Design, to modeling a 3D object and rendering it. Some use it to crunch numbers for a big project. Some use it to make movies. etc.


pandora
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reply to kvn864

said by kvn864:

I wonder sometimes what would be a percentage of those geeks like people reading this post, wanting 400 dollars video cards in their computers, compared to all PC users. Dedicated graphics will always be present, because no integrated video will satisfy someone who wants solid 3d gaming (and otherwise) performance. I think there will always be market for high power GPUs.

Most on this forum understand the value of expensive video cards, decent motherboard, and what not. Many in the public do not. I was reading this article - »www.eetimes.com/electronics-blog···-end-PCs

Top-end systems, priced at $1,000 and up, will account for only 6 percent of the PC market in 2012, according to an IHS report. So-called "performance" systems are expected to account for 6 percent of desktop PCs sold this year and 9 percent of notebooks, according to the firm.

IF as the article indicates we are only 6% of the desktop market, is it viable for not so much for companies like Newegg to market to us, but for AMD or Nvidia to care about us?
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"


Krisnatharok
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yada yada yada Apple is only 9% of the PC market share, BMW is only 4% of the car market share.

Whatever. They cater to the elite few, and they like it, and they make a killing doing so. It's lucrative. I don't share EE Time's doom and gloom prognosis--sounds like the "PC gaming is dead!" bell that has been rung far too many times.
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El Quintron
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said by Krisnatharok:

Whatever. They cater to the elite few, and they like it, and they make a killing doing so. It's lucrative.

9.5 Billion dollar's worth of lucrative in 2009.

»www.guru3d.com/news_story/enthus···ket.html

One can only assume it's grown from there.
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PinkyThePig
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reply to pandora

I even question the need for a 1k system. I built a system for 700 and it runs everything on high/ultra WITH a second screen that has all sort of youtube/internet forums open. I wouldnt even know what I'd buy component wise for 1k+ without being super wasteful / indulgent. At that price level I could probably run a raid setup or get liquid cooling but I have no need for such a setup as my computer, with an SSD, already loads faster in multiplayer than everyone else and the computer boots in 14 seconds.

The reason only 6% of the market buys a 1k+ system is because that is in the range of being super indulgent and getting triple monitors, liquid cooling or RAID hard drives, something the normal market trys to stay away from.



Krisnatharok
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Maaaan, I could break $500 with just storage. 512 GB Vector SSD + 2 TB Caviar Black. $750 right there. OK, OK. Knock the SSD down to 256 GB, much more sensible. Still $450 for your storage.

I am doing a complete rebuild minus the GPU/peripherals/monitors this spring (still have a rather new Vapor-X 7970). My wallet is going to cry afterwards.

I'll probably be around $1000-1200 without the GPU. If I add a second 7970, that's another ~$450.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Aranarth

join:2011-11-04
Stanwood, MI
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reply to pandora

If things are broken down into several categories.

My current computer is (BLANK) enough to do what I want to do:
I click and its DONE!
fast enough (its not slowing me down much)
fast enough but I wish it was faster
Too slow and I really need more power. (barely livable)
There no way in !@#$% I'm waiting that long!

As time has moved on things have been slowly moving up the chain.

I remember my doing a thousand+ cell spreadsheet on a 8086 (no math co) and seeing the same array being calculated on a 486 33mhz. Or watching dad do a couple hundred point 2d cad drawing on a 386 dx with a 387 mathco and then moving to a 100,000 point 3d cad drawing that could be animated and simple FEA done ona 1gighz amd athlon with 2 gig of ram.

There will always be people who need massive amount of computer power and if you gave them a machine 100 times more powerful in every way they would still come back to you in a year and ask you to do it again.

Its actually pretty amazing, current video cards these days can do 3 teraflops and processors can do about 100 gigaflops of processing power. compare that to main frames. IIRC this is close to the processing power of supper computers back in 2000 or just before.

So to simply answer your question, yes there will always be demand for powerful desktop machines. This will continue until your house is able to complete tomorrows local forecast by itself. (grin)


BlitzenZeus
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reply to PinkyThePig

High/Utlra? So are you rating a gaming system based on the performance of wow? If so you're the one fooling yourself. Wow will run on a onboard gpu, and it's requirements are very tame compared to other games so any decent card will run wow with high/ultra settings.

People used to say that console gaming would kill computer gaming, and that hasn't been true either. Many popular titles come out for xbox, ps3, and pc. Some games remain pc only for the sheer complexity of their controls.

1k is a good average gaming build where you spend most of your money on the processor, and video card, which is how it should be.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Ghastlyone
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reply to El Quintron

said by El Quintron:

said by Krisnatharok:

Whatever. They cater to the elite few, and they like it, and they make a killing doing so. It's lucrative.

9.5 Billion dollar's worth of lucrative in 2009.

»www.guru3d.com/news_story/enthus···ket.html

One can only assume it's grown from there.

My god...10 billion dollar industry. Yeah it's definitely dwindling down to nothing, lol.

Guess I better sell my PC and buy a console before I'm the only one left playing PC games.

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to PinkyThePig

A second video card, or a dedicated physx card if you use amd, aftermarket/better aftermarket cpu coolers, aftermarket gpu coolers, liquid cooling, an ssd for a boot drive, two ssds in raid 0 for boot drives, 4(at least 2 TB) wd red/hatachi deskstar/wd re4 drives in a raid 10 for back up, high intel extreme i7(dat 6 core and 12 threads that can still overclock like a boss), really high end motherboards with 2 cpu slots, 2 i7(possibly xeon if you want to go that way) for said dual cpu motherboard, 64GB+ ram, multiple 1440p/1600p monitors, multiple 120hz/ips monitors, multiple 3D monitors, ect.

Yes I realize that stuff is way more than $1000(and one heck of a bad sentence structure), but there exist people who want that extra stuff, and people who need it even.



Krisnatharok
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Who does dedicated PhysX cards anymore?



FizzyMyNizzy

join:2004-05-29
New York, NY

said by Krisnatharok:

Who does dedicated PhysX cards anymore?

Well, some people that buy AMD card, also use a nvidia card just for physX. lol


kvn864

join:2001-12-18
Sun City, AZ
kudos:1
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

Who does dedicated PhysX cards anymore?

I was wondering myself when this came out. How many games and other technologies are still actually support it? kinda thought it wasn't going far from the beginning.

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to Krisnatharok

People who bought nvidia last time, and got a new amd gpu and didn't get rid of the old nvidia.

Sure not many, but hey all I listed were stuff that one could put in a build thats >$1000.


Da Man

join:2008-05-08
Hanover, PA
reply to pandora

That $500 Geforce uses the same chip as the $1000 Quadro or $5000 Tesla (same with AMD's Firepro). The chips not good enough for the pro cards get used in the gamer cards.



FizzyMyNizzy

join:2004-05-29
New York, NY
reply to kvn864

said by kvn864:

said by Krisnatharok:

Who does dedicated PhysX cards anymore?

I was wondering myself when this came out. How many games and other technologies are still actually support it? kinda thought it wasn't going far from the beginning.

List of games that use PhysX »developer.nvidia.com/physx-games

Dont for get game engine like Havok use their own Physic, and is not by Nvidia PhysX marketing. »www.havok.com/ Do you remember which MMO that came out not to long ago that use Havok? Guild Wars 2. Yea, if you were wondering why people say that game is CPU hungry. Because it was using Havok Engine. Oh oh oh, Guess who own Havokkkkkkkkkkk. kekekeke. INTEL. LMAO. YOLO. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havok_(company) . Unreal Engine use PhysX. But most games now dosen't require you to have a Nvidia card just to play their game. Which is stupid to lose half of your buyer. Either Physic is run by GPU(PhysX Nvidia.) or it is run by your CPU, and or None at all(no physic support in the game.)

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines

I got sucker in to Nvidia TXAA. It is only support by like.. couple of games.. One was The Secret World.. But then they took it out when I left the game. I think a month or 2 later, they added back in.


El Quintron
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reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

My god...10 billion dollar industry. Yeah it's definitely dwindling down to nothing, lol.

10 Billion in 2009, the article says it's at 12.5 Billion now. (so that's 25% growth in 3 years give or take?)

I can't imagine any business analyst worth his or her salary would dismiss this industry.
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kingdome74
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reply to pandora

I think the one part of the gaming market that's underutilized, at least in terms of graphics and ability to deliver solid video product, is the consoles. How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me. That's the single biggest reason why I love gaming on desktops - graphics. Of course custom building and tricking out our PC's has it's own appeal.

Nothing better than the smell of newly built computer.
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Who said: "In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities, and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption."


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
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You don't play a game for the graphics, you play it as it's fun. People who rate a game on it's graphics first usually make bad choices, and we all have some old favorites we would play again today if it wasn't for legacy support issues, just for fun even if the graphics didn't even compare to the 8xAA some people expect today.

I like the control of the keyboard, and mouse. I've done games on the pc for years, and on the console. Sometimes those gamepads are not optimal.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


pandora
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reply to kingdome74

said by kingdome74:

How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me.

I used to think this way ... however the longevity of a video console permits a lot of learning and optimization when rendering a game that may be absent in a PC product.

More than that, I've become convinced that the HDMI standard we currently use is limited to 60 FPS from the video card to the display. The display may create additional frames via various techniques, but the transmission from the video card to a display device seems limited to 60 FPS.

I can understand how higher settings will make a game look better, but overall, I no longer believe greater than 60 FPS is very important to me.
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davidhoffman
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reply to pandora

The more power for CPU and video, the shorter the battery life. If we could move away from the thin fixation in laptops and tablets, we could get some decent real world battery life.
For workstation and heavy multitasking desktop users, the more the merrier. A group of CAD/CAM programmers I know just got new HP Z820s with liquid cooling, RAID 0 15,000 rpm hard drives, and dual NVIDIA 6000 graphics cards. Their old computers were 6 to 8 years old and took 60 minutes to do CAM analysis. Now it takes 20 minutes. They say that is still too much time. They want CAM analysis in under 10 minutes and double the monitors (going from 2 to 4 or 4 to 8). Yes there will be a place for high end desktop and workstation components in the future.


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
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reply to pandora

It's not just about 60 fps, over 40+ is good, and most monitors can't even display more than 60, it's not the video cards creating the limitation. That is also why some people buy 120Hz monitors on purpose, or use a hdtv capable of displaying 120-240Hz.

If you buy a good video card it will last quite a while, instead of it choking on low settings when a new games comes out in a couple years, that also depends on the age of the system due to pci express hardware limitation, along with processor limitations if it has to handle physx. Buy a good card now, and it will last quite a while. Buy a budget card from the start, and it will cost more if you have to replace it too soon.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Ghastlyone
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reply to BlitzenZeus

said by BlitzenZeus:

You don't play a game for the graphics, you play it as it's fun. People who rate a game on it's graphics first usually make bad choices, and we all have some old favorites we would play again today if it wasn't for legacy support issues, just for fun even if the graphics didn't even compare to the 8xAA some people expect today.

I like the control of the keyboard, and mouse. I've done games on the pc for years, and on the console. Sometimes those gamepads are not optimal.

I bought my brother-in-law Borderlands 2 on PS3 for Christmas. I got to play it for roughly 3 hours, before purchasing myself the game on PC the same day. Playing at 720p, no PhysX enabled, no AA, and screen tearing all over the place was rough. It looked terrible. Firing up the PC version literally within minutes of turning the PS3 off it was night and day difference.

While I agree that graphics don't necessarily at times make a game great, they are an important key in helping the total package.