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me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to Krisnatharok

Re: Do high end custom PC's have a future?

People who bought nvidia last time, and got a new amd gpu and didn't get rid of the old nvidia.

Sure not many, but hey all I listed were stuff that one could put in a build thats >$1000.


Da Man

join:2008-05-08
Hanover, PA
reply to pandora

That $500 Geforce uses the same chip as the $1000 Quadro or $5000 Tesla (same with AMD's Firepro). The chips not good enough for the pro cards get used in the gamer cards.



FizzyMyNizzy

join:2004-05-29
New York, NY
reply to kvn864

said by kvn864:

said by Krisnatharok:

Who does dedicated PhysX cards anymore?

I was wondering myself when this came out. How many games and other technologies are still actually support it? kinda thought it wasn't going far from the beginning.

List of games that use PhysX »developer.nvidia.com/physx-games

Dont for get game engine like Havok use their own Physic, and is not by Nvidia PhysX marketing. »www.havok.com/ Do you remember which MMO that came out not to long ago that use Havok? Guild Wars 2. Yea, if you were wondering why people say that game is CPU hungry. Because it was using Havok Engine. Oh oh oh, Guess who own Havokkkkkkkkkkk. kekekeke. INTEL. LMAO. YOLO. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havok_(company) . Unreal Engine use PhysX. But most games now dosen't require you to have a Nvidia card just to play their game. Which is stupid to lose half of your buyer. Either Physic is run by GPU(PhysX Nvidia.) or it is run by your CPU, and or None at all(no physic support in the game.)

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines

I got sucker in to Nvidia TXAA. It is only support by like.. couple of games.. One was The Secret World.. But then they took it out when I left the game. I think a month or 2 later, they added back in.


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reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

My god...10 billion dollar industry. Yeah it's definitely dwindling down to nothing, lol.

10 Billion in 2009, the article says it's at 12.5 Billion now. (so that's 25% growth in 3 years give or take?)

I can't imagine any business analyst worth his or her salary would dismiss this industry.
--
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kingdome74
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reply to pandora

I think the one part of the gaming market that's underutilized, at least in terms of graphics and ability to deliver solid video product, is the consoles. How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me. That's the single biggest reason why I love gaming on desktops - graphics. Of course custom building and tricking out our PC's has it's own appeal.

Nothing better than the smell of newly built computer.
--
Who said: "In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities, and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption."


BlitzenZeus
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You don't play a game for the graphics, you play it as it's fun. People who rate a game on it's graphics first usually make bad choices, and we all have some old favorites we would play again today if it wasn't for legacy support issues, just for fun even if the graphics didn't even compare to the 8xAA some people expect today.

I like the control of the keyboard, and mouse. I've done games on the pc for years, and on the console. Sometimes those gamepads are not optimal.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


pandora
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reply to kingdome74

said by kingdome74:

How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me.

I used to think this way ... however the longevity of a video console permits a lot of learning and optimization when rendering a game that may be absent in a PC product.

More than that, I've become convinced that the HDMI standard we currently use is limited to 60 FPS from the video card to the display. The display may create additional frames via various techniques, but the transmission from the video card to a display device seems limited to 60 FPS.

I can understand how higher settings will make a game look better, but overall, I no longer believe greater than 60 FPS is very important to me.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

davidhoffman
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join:2009-11-19
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reply to pandora

The more power for CPU and video, the shorter the battery life. If we could move away from the thin fixation in laptops and tablets, we could get some decent real world battery life.
For workstation and heavy multitasking desktop users, the more the merrier. A group of CAD/CAM programmers I know just got new HP Z820s with liquid cooling, RAID 0 15,000 rpm hard drives, and dual NVIDIA 6000 graphics cards. Their old computers were 6 to 8 years old and took 60 minutes to do CAM analysis. Now it takes 20 minutes. They say that is still too much time. They want CAM analysis in under 10 minutes and double the monitors (going from 2 to 4 or 4 to 8). Yes there will be a place for high end desktop and workstation components in the future.


BlitzenZeus
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reply to pandora

It's not just about 60 fps, over 40+ is good, and most monitors can't even display more than 60, it's not the video cards creating the limitation. That is also why some people buy 120Hz monitors on purpose, or use a hdtv capable of displaying 120-240Hz.

If you buy a good video card it will last quite a while, instead of it choking on low settings when a new games comes out in a couple years, that also depends on the age of the system due to pci express hardware limitation, along with processor limitations if it has to handle physx. Buy a good card now, and it will last quite a while. Buy a budget card from the start, and it will cost more if you have to replace it too soon.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Ghastlyone
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reply to BlitzenZeus

said by BlitzenZeus:

You don't play a game for the graphics, you play it as it's fun. People who rate a game on it's graphics first usually make bad choices, and we all have some old favorites we would play again today if it wasn't for legacy support issues, just for fun even if the graphics didn't even compare to the 8xAA some people expect today.

I like the control of the keyboard, and mouse. I've done games on the pc for years, and on the console. Sometimes those gamepads are not optimal.

I bought my brother-in-law Borderlands 2 on PS3 for Christmas. I got to play it for roughly 3 hours, before purchasing myself the game on PC the same day. Playing at 720p, no PhysX enabled, no AA, and screen tearing all over the place was rough. It looked terrible. Firing up the PC version literally within minutes of turning the PS3 off it was night and day difference.

While I agree that graphics don't necessarily at times make a game great, they are an important key in helping the total package.

BlitzenZeus
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I'm not that picky, I thought Borderland 2 was fine on the Xbox 360 except for game mechanics like bullets that are supposed to travel faster than they were. Many non-explosive bullets were easily seen moving even missing their moving targets including the sniper rifle which should easily be faster than the speed of sound in real life. I care more about details like that than how things look.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Krisnatharok
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reply to BlitzenZeus

said by BlitzenZeus:

You don't play a game for the graphics, you play it as it's fun. People who rate a game on it's graphics first usually make bad choices, and we all have some old favorites we would play again today if it wasn't for legacy support issues, just for fun even if the graphics didn't even compare to the 8xAA some people expect today.

I like the control of the keyboard, and mouse. I've done games on the pc for years, and on the console. Sometimes those gamepads are not optimal.

Console games aren't known for their depth of gameplay. Hell, they are the force responsible for pushing QTE onto PC games.

SMASH X!!!!!!!!!!
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pandora
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reply to davidhoffman

said by davidhoffman:

RAID 0 15,000 rpm hard drives, and dual NVIDIA 6000 graphics cards. Their old computers were 6 to 8 years old and took 60 minutes to do CAM analysis. Now it takes 20 minutes.

Hi Dave,

In your post, two things surprised me (and are quoted above). Running a CAD / CAM system in a commercial environment should be profitable, 8 year old hardware? Yike.

The 2nd thing was 15,000 RPM mechanical drives. The day when mechanical drives could beat an SSD are over. Maybe for backup, or media, but for work in progress, SSD over mechanical any day imo.

CAD / CAM, video editors, and a lot of engineers will need workstations ... I'm not certain how different / viable the workstation market is vs the gaming market.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

pandora
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reply to BlitzenZeus

said by BlitzenZeus:

It's not just about 60 fps, over 40+ is good, and most monitors can't even display more than 60, it's not the video cards creating the limitation. That is also why some people buy 120Hz monitors on purpose, or use a hdtv capable of displaying 120-240Hz.

My understanding is the limit is 60 Hz for HDMI today. In the future that may change. A 120, 240 or 480 Hz HDTV is only creating more images between the 60 FPS signal provided it.

I don't know of any HDTV available to me (or a video card) that could really provide 240 or 480 Hz over the HDMI signal. Even if they could, I doubt my eyes could discern 120 vs 240 vs 480 on almost anything.

I'd like a decent 1080 or 1200 x 1980 HDMI video card capable of providing 3D 60 FPS at high settings on any game my PC is likely to play into the intermediate future. After 60 FPS, it's tougher for me to justify spending a lot more on a card, particularly if it's going to create heat, noise or use a lot more electricity.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"


Ghastlyone
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join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

1 edit

From what I've read, it all depends on the HDMI cable you purchase. High speed HDMI cables for version 1.4 support 120/240hz refresh rates, 3D and ethernet.

So PC gamers running 120hz monitors are probably using high speed cables also.

edit: Actually, after reading some more, it looks as though to game at 1080p resolutions @ 120hz refresh rates you should be running Display Port connections instead. They support a much higher bandwith.


davidhoffman
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Warner Robins, GA
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reply to pandora

The corporate rules states that all regular desktops and work stations are to be replaced on a 3 or 4 year schedule. They have a big chart as to who is to get what and when. But you have to buy from a corporate approved list of models and options. The company does big purchases every year and gets bulk purchase discounts. The IT manager for our CAM programmers wanted to optimize the not connected to the internet workstations and servers with special configurations for reliability and speed of backup. This was at odds with certain persons goal, in our subsidiary, of getting a reward for keeping IT configurations to the lowest cost versions with zero exceptions. In the end, the CAM IT man won the repeated appeals about the need to allow for very high end workstations. The corporate purchasers negotiated to have these included in this years bulk buy options. So now any CAM or similar office in the company can purchase these from the standard yearly option sheet.

As far as solid state drives, he has looked at them closely, as the CAM and engineering staff asks each year for him to review them for use. He says they are too costly on a per GB basis even with the discounts we get. The other issue is reliability in a very rapid continuous read-write environment. All CAM programming is presently continuously backed up to a Dell server and a NetApps device. You can have your CAM workstation completely fail, and all of your various CAM program choices for a part, done that day, are available on the NetApps and the server. He says the SSDs available from the purchase option list are not yet reliable enough to survive in that environment, and it is not worth fighting to get better ones added. The 4 year workstation battle was draining enough. He says he might battle for them in the 2020 or 2024 purchase, depending on how their overall performance value increases. We trust his judgement, as he was one of a few who warned our subsidiary about not purchasing plasma monitors and displays when we replaced CRT monitors. Image retention, heat, reliability and energy usage became big issues for those who bought plasma monitors compared to those who bought LCDs. He also has helped design better fiber optic configurations and networks for each of our buildings than the IT head engineers.


pandora
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reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

edit: Actually, after reading some more, it looks as though to game at 1080p resolutions @ 120hz refresh rates you should be running Display Port connections instead. They support a much higher bandwith.

I look at Wikipedia, and see all HDMI listed as supporting up to 60 FPS. - »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4

Maybe a monitor with displayport could run better, but I don't think any traditional HDMI display is going to work much faster than 60 FPS from the video card.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

Da Man

join:2008-05-08
Hanover, PA

Dual link DVI/HDMI has enough bandwidth for 1920x1200@120FPS (that's 308MHZ of bandwidth with reduced blanking) . You need display port to do >=2560*1440.



Krisnatharok
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

I'm not certain how different / viable the workstation market is vs the gaming market.

The gaming market is a luxury/entertainment market, and people will pay good money for the best.

As any entertainment market goes, it can be one of the first to feel the hurt when money is scarce in a bad economy, but surprisingly, the growth of the market is vastly outpacing individual cutbacks market members may be taking.
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pandora
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reply to Da Man

said by Da Man:

Dual link DVI/HDMI has enough bandwidth for 1920x1200@120FPS (that's 308MHZ of bandwidth with reduced blanking) . You need display port to do >=2560*1440.

I looked at your link, and it seems to be discussing DVI not HDMI or display port.

At the moment (and since 2008) all displays used in my home have been HDMI. The only distinction a GPU would likely notice has been 1080 x 1920 or 1200 x 1920 resolution. FPS has always been 60.

I suspect if video frame rates from a source to a destination were better at 120 / 240 or 480 FPS, HDMI would support it.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

pandora
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reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

The gaming market is a luxury/entertainment market, and people will pay good money for the best.

Do you really think most people understand the difference between a gaming and non-gaming desktop? Between the capability of a laptop and desktop in terms of not only performance but expansion?

I am of the belief most people want to toddle down to best buy, wal mart, target, or amazon and buy a laptop for under $600 and are likely to take whatever the alleged geek tells them about a device as literally true.

12 volt rail, one or two, power supply 80 plus (forget bronze, silver, gold), 99.99% of shoppers won't understand the basics of a power supply decision imo. Then go to power supply 80 plus under load with heat ... the number who understand such things keeps shrinking. Motherboards? Ask 10 random friends what a support chipset is, and if they know, which support chipset their pc or laptop uses.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"


Krisnatharok
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said by pandora:

Do you really think most people understand the difference between a gaming and non-gaming desktop? Between the capability of a laptop and desktop in terms of not only performance but expansion?



A market share under 10% is not "most people." We are the tiny minority, the informed few. "Most people" are uninformed, and can't fathom why that GT 650M is not faster than the Radeon 4890 ("but it's got two gigabytes of ram stuff!").

said by pandora:

I am of the belief most people want to toddle down to best buy, wal mart, target, or amazon and buy a laptop for under $600 and are likely to take whatever the alleged geek tells them about a device as literally true.

You're probably right. Again, most people "... are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

said by pandora:

12 volt rail, one or two, power supply 80 plus (forget bronze, silver, gold), 99.99% of shoppers won't understand the basics of a power supply decision imo. Then go to power supply 80 plus under load with heat ... the number who understand such things keeps shrinking. Motherboards? Ask 10 random friends what a support chipset is, and if they know, which support chipset their pc or laptop uses.

Cite your sources. What evidence indications the people "in the know" about computers are shrinking?

This is central to your point, and countered by facts about the growth in market share, so 'fess up.
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bobjohnson
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1 edit
reply to pandora

said by pandora:

said by kingdome74:

How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me.

I used to think this way ... however the longevity of a video console permits a lot of learning and optimization when rendering a game that may be absent in a PC product.

More than that, I've become convinced that the HDMI standard we currently use is limited to 60 FPS from the video card to the display. The display may create additional frames via various techniques, but the transmission from the video card to a display device seems limited to 60 FPS.

I can understand how higher settings will make a game look better, but overall, I no longer believe greater than 60 FPS is very important to me.

When I built my gaming rig I looked into this because my monitor is a 120Hz and I had to cheap out on the graphics but I did learn that the DisplayPort connection is the only way to go and the cheapest video cards to support it is like $500.


El Quintron
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said by bobjohnson:

I did learn that the DisplayPort connection is the only way to go and the cheapest video cards to support it is like $500.

That's a bit expensive... my GTX670 was well below $400, and that was 3 months ago.
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bobjohnson
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Does that card run at 120Hz? When I was looking for cards the only ones that actually had that in the specs were very high end ones... I'm not sure that any card with DisplayPort will do this?



Ghastlyone
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said by bobjohnson:

Does that card run at 120Hz? When I was looking for cards the only ones that actually had that in the specs were very high end ones... I'm not sure that any card with DisplayPort will do this?

It all depends on if the drivers support that type of refresh rate. Not the actual card. I've read about some AMD cards not having drivers that recognized 120hz monitors while the Nvidia counterparts did.

So you don't need a 500 dollar GPU just to output to a 120hz monitor. All a $500 GPU is going to net you, is enough horsepower to fill those 90-120fps beautifully.


bobjohnson
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said by Ghastlyone:

Not the actual card. I've read about some AMD cards not having drivers that recognized 120hz monitors while the Nvidia counterparts did.

This may have been my problem then... I have never even considered a Nvidia card. I have always liked the ATI/AMD cards...

pandora
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1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

Cite your sources. What evidence indications the people "in the know" about computers are shrinking?

This is central to your point, and countered by facts about the growth in market share, so 'fess up.

Failure of our public education system is well documented just about everywhere. Not understanding basic math, worse reading, will cause most to be technologically illiterate for their life.

Aside from direct involvement planning IT with public and private schools, and noting how bad the IT staff is (I met one woman who thought an Ethernet switch was a switch to turn Ethernet on and off as one would turn a light bulb on or off, she was the school IT person, this was at a meeting 6 weeks ago). She has no tablets at the school. Only decade old static text monochrome 3 line LCD matrix devices that use a serial port to print. My experience is mostly in Fairfield county, Connecticut ... which is one of the richest counties in the U.S. Our state mandates public schools use approved providers, and most items from approved providers are overpriced old junk.

Aside from my anecdotal experience, I'll direct you here - »www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=69c81b···ec0eba29

The United States has entered into a significant national decline in the number of college graduates with STEM degrees. This downward trend is an issue of national importance as it affects our capacity to maintain a technological lead in critical skills and disciplines related to CS-STEM. Our ability to compete in the increasingly internationalized stage will be hindered without college graduates with the ability to understand and innovate cutting edge technologies in the decades to come.

The downward trend in college graduates with STEM majors is particularly pronounced in Computer Science (CS). While computers and internet connectivity become daily fixtures in the lives of Americans, we are steadily losing the engineering talent to project these systems. According to the Computer Research Association, there were 43% fewer graduates and 45% fewer CS degree enrollments in 2006/2007 than in 2003/20041.
In addition, our systems are becoming more complex, requiring more people with the software engineering talent to manage and maintain them. Finding the right people with increasingly specialized talent is becoming more difficult and will continue to add risk to a wide range of DoD systems that include software development.

Recent studies conducted by DARPA revealed that public perception is a critical issue. Study participants believed that the “dot-com bust” and “international outsourcing” have led to fewer computer science jobs. In fact, the opposite is true: the U.S. Department of Labor lists “Computer Software Engineers, Applications” as the fourth fastest growing occupation in the country in November 20072. Verbal reports from industry partners, as well as the presence of constant job openings, indicate industry is having difficulty finding software engineering talent to develop and maintain their software systems.

STEM (Science, technology, engineering and math as taught in public middle and high school is mostly rote learning or dogma. Our public schools discourage critical thinking, and what "science"is taught is mostly filled with overt leftist propaganda.

As an example, my son in 7th grade STEM was required to write a report about water waste. The numbers he was given to use were way out of line with any modern appliance. For example 7 to 10 gallons per toilet flush. In 1992 Congress passed a water conservation act that changed many aspects of how our appliances worked. When going through the list, and verifying each of our own home appliances use, the waste was overstated by almost 800%. Almost 2 orders of magnitude off as a conclusion not supported by any fact? That sir is science as taught in our public school system today.

I prepared a report for the science teacher (who assures me she is a "real" scientist). My first suggestion was to conclude waste without observation and measurement wasn't scientific, evaluating actual water use would be more appropriate. Conclusions regarding waste could then be derived from collected data. Turns out public school science program my son is in for 2012, requires acceptance of nonsensical conclusions based on ludicrous assumptions. The student is expected to produce the one and only possible result without any testing or evaluation. This is one of many examples I could offer, and I've had the same experience in other schools.

Currently my son is "studying" DDT and eagle eggs. That the information was taken from Silent Sprint, and is very very incorrect, doesn't matter. My son is required to suspend any critical thinking, and regurgitate the dogma our public school STEM program requires.

There is no integration of match, science, economics, social studies or history in most public schools. The math education is an atrocity, most students are mathematically illiterate. Generally critical thought is discouraged.
--
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El Quintron
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said by pandora:

There is no integration of match, science, economics, social studies or history in most public schools. The math education is an atrocity, most students are mathematically illiterate. Generally critical thought is discouraged.

Nothing you've said indicates impact on the growth of high end pc sales. I don't have to be a mechanic to appreciate a sports car, so why would I need a BSc to appreciate a $500+ GPU?
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kingdome74
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reply to BlitzenZeus

said by BlitzenZeus:

You don't play a game for the graphics, you play it as it's fun. People who rate a game on it's graphics first usually make bad choices, and we all have some old favorites we would play again today if it wasn't for legacy support issues, just for fun even if the graphics didn't even compare to the 8xAA some people expect today.

Well, whenever I see a post about a new game invariably within the first two sentences will be a review about the graphics. What I like best about PC's is having the option to have as much or little video power you want. On a console like my Wii the video will look the same as yours or anybody elses. On a PC the games will look different PC to PC depending on what parts we put in them.
--
Who said: "In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities, and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption."