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pandora
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reply to Krisnatharok

Re: Do high end custom PC's have a future?

said by Krisnatharok:

The gaming market is a luxury/entertainment market, and people will pay good money for the best.

Do you really think most people understand the difference between a gaming and non-gaming desktop? Between the capability of a laptop and desktop in terms of not only performance but expansion?

I am of the belief most people want to toddle down to best buy, wal mart, target, or amazon and buy a laptop for under $600 and are likely to take whatever the alleged geek tells them about a device as literally true.

12 volt rail, one or two, power supply 80 plus (forget bronze, silver, gold), 99.99% of shoppers won't understand the basics of a power supply decision imo. Then go to power supply 80 plus under load with heat ... the number who understand such things keeps shrinking. Motherboards? Ask 10 random friends what a support chipset is, and if they know, which support chipset their pc or laptop uses.
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Krisnatharok
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said by pandora:

Do you really think most people understand the difference between a gaming and non-gaming desktop? Between the capability of a laptop and desktop in terms of not only performance but expansion?



A market share under 10% is not "most people." We are the tiny minority, the informed few. "Most people" are uninformed, and can't fathom why that GT 650M is not faster than the Radeon 4890 ("but it's got two gigabytes of ram stuff!").

said by pandora:

I am of the belief most people want to toddle down to best buy, wal mart, target, or amazon and buy a laptop for under $600 and are likely to take whatever the alleged geek tells them about a device as literally true.

You're probably right. Again, most people "... are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

said by pandora:

12 volt rail, one or two, power supply 80 plus (forget bronze, silver, gold), 99.99% of shoppers won't understand the basics of a power supply decision imo. Then go to power supply 80 plus under load with heat ... the number who understand such things keeps shrinking. Motherboards? Ask 10 random friends what a support chipset is, and if they know, which support chipset their pc or laptop uses.

Cite your sources. What evidence indications the people "in the know" about computers are shrinking?

This is central to your point, and countered by facts about the growth in market share, so 'fess up.
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bobjohnson
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1 edit
reply to pandora

said by pandora:

said by kingdome74:

How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me.

I used to think this way ... however the longevity of a video console permits a lot of learning and optimization when rendering a game that may be absent in a PC product.

More than that, I've become convinced that the HDMI standard we currently use is limited to 60 FPS from the video card to the display. The display may create additional frames via various techniques, but the transmission from the video card to a display device seems limited to 60 FPS.

I can understand how higher settings will make a game look better, but overall, I no longer believe greater than 60 FPS is very important to me.

When I built my gaming rig I looked into this because my monitor is a 120Hz and I had to cheap out on the graphics but I did learn that the DisplayPort connection is the only way to go and the cheapest video cards to support it is like $500.


El Quintron
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said by bobjohnson:

I did learn that the DisplayPort connection is the only way to go and the cheapest video cards to support it is like $500.

That's a bit expensive... my GTX670 was well below $400, and that was 3 months ago.
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bobjohnson
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Does that card run at 120Hz? When I was looking for cards the only ones that actually had that in the specs were very high end ones... I'm not sure that any card with DisplayPort will do this?



Ghastlyone
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said by bobjohnson:

Does that card run at 120Hz? When I was looking for cards the only ones that actually had that in the specs were very high end ones... I'm not sure that any card with DisplayPort will do this?

It all depends on if the drivers support that type of refresh rate. Not the actual card. I've read about some AMD cards not having drivers that recognized 120hz monitors while the Nvidia counterparts did.

So you don't need a 500 dollar GPU just to output to a 120hz monitor. All a $500 GPU is going to net you, is enough horsepower to fill those 90-120fps beautifully.


bobjohnson
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said by Ghastlyone:

Not the actual card. I've read about some AMD cards not having drivers that recognized 120hz monitors while the Nvidia counterparts did.

This may have been my problem then... I have never even considered a Nvidia card. I have always liked the ATI/AMD cards...

pandora
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reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

Cite your sources. What evidence indications the people "in the know" about computers are shrinking?

This is central to your point, and countered by facts about the growth in market share, so 'fess up.

Failure of our public education system is well documented just about everywhere. Not understanding basic math, worse reading, will cause most to be technologically illiterate for their life.

Aside from direct involvement planning IT with public and private schools, and noting how bad the IT staff is (I met one woman who thought an Ethernet switch was a switch to turn Ethernet on and off as one would turn a light bulb on or off, she was the school IT person, this was at a meeting 6 weeks ago). She has no tablets at the school. Only decade old static text monochrome 3 line LCD matrix devices that use a serial port to print. My experience is mostly in Fairfield county, Connecticut ... which is one of the richest counties in the U.S. Our state mandates public schools use approved providers, and most items from approved providers are overpriced old junk.

Aside from my anecdotal experience, I'll direct you here - »www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=69c81b···ec0eba29

The United States has entered into a significant national decline in the number of college graduates with STEM degrees. This downward trend is an issue of national importance as it affects our capacity to maintain a technological lead in critical skills and disciplines related to CS-STEM. Our ability to compete in the increasingly internationalized stage will be hindered without college graduates with the ability to understand and innovate cutting edge technologies in the decades to come.

The downward trend in college graduates with STEM majors is particularly pronounced in Computer Science (CS). While computers and internet connectivity become daily fixtures in the lives of Americans, we are steadily losing the engineering talent to project these systems. According to the Computer Research Association, there were 43% fewer graduates and 45% fewer CS degree enrollments in 2006/2007 than in 2003/20041.
In addition, our systems are becoming more complex, requiring more people with the software engineering talent to manage and maintain them. Finding the right people with increasingly specialized talent is becoming more difficult and will continue to add risk to a wide range of DoD systems that include software development.

Recent studies conducted by DARPA revealed that public perception is a critical issue. Study participants believed that the “dot-com bust” and “international outsourcing” have led to fewer computer science jobs. In fact, the opposite is true: the U.S. Department of Labor lists “Computer Software Engineers, Applications” as the fourth fastest growing occupation in the country in November 20072. Verbal reports from industry partners, as well as the presence of constant job openings, indicate industry is having difficulty finding software engineering talent to develop and maintain their software systems.

STEM (Science, technology, engineering and math as taught in public middle and high school is mostly rote learning or dogma. Our public schools discourage critical thinking, and what "science"is taught is mostly filled with overt leftist propaganda.

As an example, my son in 7th grade STEM was required to write a report about water waste. The numbers he was given to use were way out of line with any modern appliance. For example 7 to 10 gallons per toilet flush. In 1992 Congress passed a water conservation act that changed many aspects of how our appliances worked. When going through the list, and verifying each of our own home appliances use, the waste was overstated by almost 800%. Almost 2 orders of magnitude off as a conclusion not supported by any fact? That sir is science as taught in our public school system today.

I prepared a report for the science teacher (who assures me she is a "real" scientist). My first suggestion was to conclude waste without observation and measurement wasn't scientific, evaluating actual water use would be more appropriate. Conclusions regarding waste could then be derived from collected data. Turns out public school science program my son is in for 2012, requires acceptance of nonsensical conclusions based on ludicrous assumptions. The student is expected to produce the one and only possible result without any testing or evaluation. This is one of many examples I could offer, and I've had the same experience in other schools.

Currently my son is "studying" DDT and eagle eggs. That the information was taken from Silent Sprint, and is very very incorrect, doesn't matter. My son is required to suspend any critical thinking, and regurgitate the dogma our public school STEM program requires.

There is no integration of match, science, economics, social studies or history in most public schools. The math education is an atrocity, most students are mathematically illiterate. Generally critical thought is discouraged.
--
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El Quintron
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said by pandora:

There is no integration of match, science, economics, social studies or history in most public schools. The math education is an atrocity, most students are mathematically illiterate. Generally critical thought is discouraged.

Nothing you've said indicates impact on the growth of high end pc sales. I don't have to be a mechanic to appreciate a sports car, so why would I need a BSc to appreciate a $500+ GPU?
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kingdome74
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reply to BlitzenZeus

said by BlitzenZeus:

You don't play a game for the graphics, you play it as it's fun. People who rate a game on it's graphics first usually make bad choices, and we all have some old favorites we would play again today if it wasn't for legacy support issues, just for fun even if the graphics didn't even compare to the 8xAA some people expect today.

Well, whenever I see a post about a new game invariably within the first two sentences will be a review about the graphics. What I like best about PC's is having the option to have as much or little video power you want. On a console like my Wii the video will look the same as yours or anybody elses. On a PC the games will look different PC to PC depending on what parts we put in them.
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Krisnatharok
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reply to pandora

So... DOWNFALL OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION = declining high-end PC enthusiasts? wut

I have no background in the hard sciences. I got a classical liberal arts college degree, and the extent of STEM I got in college was Euclidean geometry, physics, biology, and chemistry. My career is as a non-technical analyst.

Yet my understanding of basic computer mechanics is sufficiently deep enough that lets me (somewhat competently) put together my own builds.

The state of our public school system has nothing directly to do the high-end PC market share, and nothing to do with your OP.

Unless you are insinuating that people are more stupid today, and therefore appreciate simplistic consoles more than those "complicated" PC desktops. If that is really your argument, then say so.

Maybe this was what you really wanted to talk about, but it's not what you started the topic on.
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Ghastlyone
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reply to pandora

It doesn't take an engineering degree to be a gaming PC enthusiast.


pandora
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reply to El Quintron

said by El Quintron:

Nothing you've said indicates impact on the growth of high end pc sales. I don't have to be a mechanic to appreciate a sports car, so why would I need a BSc to appreciate a $500+ GPU?

Mathematical illiteracy and technological illiteracy will cause people to at best make semi random purchases. For example a 200 FPS graphics card where the HDMI signal only permits 60 FPS.

You'll spend more for a GPU that doesn't offer any advantage over one at half the price with absolutely no detectable difference.

THAT is why literacy matters.
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pandora
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reply to Krisnatharok

If we are scientifically, mathematically and socially illiterate as a society. People won't be assembling high end PC's, unless China sets up shops in the U.S.
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pandora
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reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

It doesn't take an engineering degree to be a gaming PC enthusiast.

It helps not to be illiterate when making decisions about building a system. Without basic understanding of the technology, semi-random purchases will be made.
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Krisnatharok
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

If we are scientifically, mathematically and socially illiterate as a society. People won't be assembling high end PC's, unless China sets up shops in the U.S.

Obviously your premise is false then.
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brianiscool

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reply to pandora

Yep the PC Gaming market is doing so well. Now consoles systems are taking a huge hit.



Cthen

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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

At the same time, I see so many people satisfied with weak laptops or very weak tablets. Weak in terms of graphics and cpu compared to a desktop.

So how many of them are gamers who use the PC for gaming? Keep in mind the enthusiast market is indeed huge however at the same time, it's still only a small percentage of the overall total market.

Sure people are settling for the weaker mobile stuff but that is because it is more than enough for what they do. Their desktops were overkill but due price reductions over the years from manufacturer's it became cheaper for them to buy an overkill desktop over buying a much weaker mobile device. Due to the recent explosion in mobile gear, prices are now going down to the more affordable range.

It's kind of like asking if Apple is going to take over the home user market due to their increase in popularity. Sure they gained a lot of popularity over the years but, by no means did they really gain any real market share.
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Krisnatharok
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Or rather, all the people doing casual browsing who were forced to do it on big, bulky desktops are now doing it on smartphones, tablets, and ultra books.

All the people who loved building enthusiast rigs will continue to do so, without much impact.

After all, your casual web-surfers weren't building LGA 2011 systems with dual Radeon 7990s and SSDs in RAID, so no love lost there.
--
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Ghastlyone
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I'd love to know the ratio of casual web surfers that converted to hard core PC enthusiast, and vise versa.

I got a feeling not a whole lot of hard core PC gamers have given up their hobby of building PC's and gone to buying tablets and shitty laptops.



El Quintron
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

Mathematical illiteracy and technological illiteracy will cause people to at best make semi random purchases. For example a 200 FPS graphics card where the HDMI signal only permits 60 FPS.

You'll spend more for a GPU that doesn't offer any advantage over one at half the price with absolutely no detectable difference.

THAT is why literacy matters.

Wow... where to begin?

The entire premise for this thread is way off.

You started off with people are satisfied with Tablets, so there's no use for a PC with a High End GPU... when respondents told you they love their PCs with high-end GPUs you told them they didn't know how to use their high end GPU so they should just go out and get a console.

You're wrong on at least two levels:

1) FPS is the only measure of performance on games.

2) That getting and using good gear requires intimate knowlege of hard science and mathematics.

The enthusiast market is both viable and educational, on its own merit.

Maybe the fact that people can learn on their own and come to their own conclusions about what they want in a PC is something you're not prepared to accept?
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bobjohnson
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

said by Ghastlyone:

It doesn't take an engineering degree to be a gaming PC enthusiast.

It helps not to be illiterate when making decisions about building a system. Without basic understanding of the technology, semi-random purchases will be made.

Semi-random purchased by the uneducated helps the business. I have personally seen people buy junk that is recommended or advertised as great, awesome, blah... Then try to play borderlands with quality all the way and it don't work... What do they do? Learn from that, educate themselves and buy the better parts or replace the entire system. Most people learn as they go and adjust accordingly.
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Krisnatharok
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Nah man, DOWNFALL OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION!



bobjohnson
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said by Krisnatharok:

Nah man, DOWNFALL OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION!



captokita
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

At the same time, I see so many people satisfied with weak laptops or very weak tablets. Weak in terms of graphics and cpu compared to a desktop.

As I said in another thread, the trend in computing for joe-average user, from what I'm seeing, is to the tablet market. Simple, easy, works. They don't need an uber powerful PC with gigawatt power supplies and graphics to blow the neighbors away, they just want to play Angry Birds and check their email. You don't need much for that.

quote:
Sometimes I wonder why AMD and Nvidia still make high end video cards. Is the market for custom desktops and small servers large enough to justify continued mass production of components?

Because there is still a market for it. So long as games are produced, there will be gamers, and those gamers will need the better gear to play those games. But you're talking about two completely different groups of users here. The no-frills basic one, and the one that wants the killer gaming rig.


captokita
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reply to kingdome74

said by kingdome74:

I think the one part of the gaming market that's underutilized, at least in terms of graphics and ability to deliver solid video product, is the consoles. How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me.

Simplicity. I buy a PS3 game, I KNOW my PS3 is going to play it. I don't have to say "Is my graphics card enough to run this game properly? Do I have enough RAM in my system to make it run properly? That PS3 game IS going to work on my system. From first to last released game for the system, they ALL will work, with no upgrades required. I can't do that with a PC.

quote:
That's the single biggest reason why I love gaming on desktops - graphics. Of course custom building and tricking out our PC's has it's own appeal.
I wouldn't say you're wrong for thinking that way, but for people on budgets, keeping up with the latest for desktop gaming, can be pretty costly. Sure, my rig runs the F out of *insert game name* today, but NEXT year, won't get basic framerate out of the NEW "Gotta play it!" game. Maybe a graphics upgrade is enough, but maybe it's a new system.

pandora
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reply to captokita

said by captokita:

Because there is still a market for it. So long as games are produced, there will be gamers, and those gamers will need the better gear to play those games. But you're talking about two completely different groups of users here. The no-frills basic one, and the one that wants the killer gaming rig.

Thanks for your thoughtful post, I culled out a section of it for reply.

I vaguely recall a time when a math co-processor was an external optional chip (8087, 80287 ring any bells)? Same with cache.

Today Intel offers the 4000 GPU integrated with most of it's newer Ivy Bridge CPU's. The 4000 GPU is a step up, and over the next generation or two, Intel's integrated GPU may obviate the need for an external graphics card as integrated math co-processors and integrated CPU cache have removed the need for these on our motherboards.

The 4000 isn't strong enough today for a gamer, in a generation or two, I'm increasingly convinced the on board GPU will make external GPU's obsolete.

Does anyone still buy a separate math co-processor or separate CPU cache?
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El Quintron
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reply to captokita

said by captokita:

Simplicity. I buy a PS3 game, I KNOW my PS3 is going to play it. I don't have to say "Is my graphics card enough to run this game properly? Do I have enough RAM in my system to make it run properly? That PS3 game IS going to work on my system. From first to last released game for the system, they ALL will work, with no upgrades required. I can't do that with a PC.

Except you can't play PS2 (in most cases), or PS1 games (at all) whereas you can play a ten year old game on your PC as is, or with a bit of tinkering at worst.

Also most PC games have scalability, so even if your old(er) gpu can't play a new game at Maximum settings it can certainly play it at high or medium settings, for example you can still play Borderlands 2 with a GeForce 8500 which isn't a whole lot by today's standards.
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kingdome74
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reply to captokita

I certainly have no money to pay for high end system builds but I can play any game that's out without any problems. Granted my system is getting long in the tooth (about 4 years old) but I try to think ahead and build in as much forward upgrading as possible. To me I have three rules for upgrading on a budget:

1. Be patient. Buying the latest and greatest means you generally won't even see it's full usefulness for years down the road and by then it's on Newegg for 20 bucks. I prowl a lot of sites when I get ready to start revamping my system and I do a lot of reading trying to be as educated as possible.

2. Have money in hand. You can't be led by the nose by parts makers trying to convince you that if you buy now you'll save etc etc. Bullshit. Be smart and once you know exactly what you want be ready to strike when you hit that great price delivered.

3. Rotation, rotation, rotation. When I build I know I'll be able to use my mobo/CPU/RAM pretty much for the life of it knowing I'll have to upgrade vid cards a couple of times and maybe a bigger PSU or a hard drive. For instance right now I already have my SATA III drives, RAM, opticals, and PSU already in use. All I need is a vid card, mobo, and CPU and - bam - a "new" rig that, in reality, I've been building over the course of the last couple of year by rotating to next generation before I actually switch completely over to it.

A lot of work I will guarantee and most people don't want to use or have that kind of time. Even when I worked I spent all of my off time reading and pondering the next build. I hate wasting money and I'll be damned if I drop two grand just to say I did.

Of course my wife calls me cheap but it's a title I wear with pride.
--
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me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to bobjohnson

my $300 7950 has display port support, and I'm fairly certain the new 12.11 beta drivers support 120hz. At least some other tech website I visit have lead me to believe so.