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El Quintron
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join:2008-04-28
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reply to pandora

Re: Do high end custom PC's have a future?

said by pandora:

Mathematical illiteracy and technological illiteracy will cause people to at best make semi random purchases. For example a 200 FPS graphics card where the HDMI signal only permits 60 FPS.

You'll spend more for a GPU that doesn't offer any advantage over one at half the price with absolutely no detectable difference.

THAT is why literacy matters.

Wow... where to begin?

The entire premise for this thread is way off.

You started off with people are satisfied with Tablets, so there's no use for a PC with a High End GPU... when respondents told you they love their PCs with high-end GPUs you told them they didn't know how to use their high end GPU so they should just go out and get a console.

You're wrong on at least two levels:

1) FPS is the only measure of performance on games.

2) That getting and using good gear requires intimate knowlege of hard science and mathematics.

The enthusiast market is both viable and educational, on its own merit.

Maybe the fact that people can learn on their own and come to their own conclusions about what they want in a PC is something you're not prepared to accept?
--
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bobjohnson
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Orlando, FL
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

said by Ghastlyone:

It doesn't take an engineering degree to be a gaming PC enthusiast.

It helps not to be illiterate when making decisions about building a system. Without basic understanding of the technology, semi-random purchases will be made.

Semi-random purchased by the uneducated helps the business. I have personally seen people buy junk that is recommended or advertised as great, awesome, blah... Then try to play borderlands with quality all the way and it don't work... What do they do? Learn from that, educate themselves and buy the better parts or replace the entire system. Most people learn as they go and adjust accordingly.
--



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
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join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
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Nah man, DOWNFALL OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION!



bobjohnson
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said by Krisnatharok:

Nah man, DOWNFALL OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION!



captokita
Premium
join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC
reply to pandora

said by pandora:

At the same time, I see so many people satisfied with weak laptops or very weak tablets. Weak in terms of graphics and cpu compared to a desktop.

As I said in another thread, the trend in computing for joe-average user, from what I'm seeing, is to the tablet market. Simple, easy, works. They don't need an uber powerful PC with gigawatt power supplies and graphics to blow the neighbors away, they just want to play Angry Birds and check their email. You don't need much for that.

quote:
Sometimes I wonder why AMD and Nvidia still make high end video cards. Is the market for custom desktops and small servers large enough to justify continued mass production of components?

Because there is still a market for it. So long as games are produced, there will be gamers, and those gamers will need the better gear to play those games. But you're talking about two completely different groups of users here. The no-frills basic one, and the one that wants the killer gaming rig.


captokita
Premium
join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC
reply to kingdome74

said by kingdome74:

I think the one part of the gaming market that's underutilized, at least in terms of graphics and ability to deliver solid video product, is the consoles. How console players put up with those graphics is beyond me.

Simplicity. I buy a PS3 game, I KNOW my PS3 is going to play it. I don't have to say "Is my graphics card enough to run this game properly? Do I have enough RAM in my system to make it run properly? That PS3 game IS going to work on my system. From first to last released game for the system, they ALL will work, with no upgrades required. I can't do that with a PC.

quote:
That's the single biggest reason why I love gaming on desktops - graphics. Of course custom building and tricking out our PC's has it's own appeal.
I wouldn't say you're wrong for thinking that way, but for people on budgets, keeping up with the latest for desktop gaming, can be pretty costly. Sure, my rig runs the F out of *insert game name* today, but NEXT year, won't get basic framerate out of the NEW "Gotta play it!" game. Maybe a graphics upgrade is enough, but maybe it's a new system.

pandora
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reply to captokita

said by captokita:

Because there is still a market for it. So long as games are produced, there will be gamers, and those gamers will need the better gear to play those games. But you're talking about two completely different groups of users here. The no-frills basic one, and the one that wants the killer gaming rig.

Thanks for your thoughtful post, I culled out a section of it for reply.

I vaguely recall a time when a math co-processor was an external optional chip (8087, 80287 ring any bells)? Same with cache.

Today Intel offers the 4000 GPU integrated with most of it's newer Ivy Bridge CPU's. The 4000 GPU is a step up, and over the next generation or two, Intel's integrated GPU may obviate the need for an external graphics card as integrated math co-processors and integrated CPU cache have removed the need for these on our motherboards.

The 4000 isn't strong enough today for a gamer, in a generation or two, I'm increasingly convinced the on board GPU will make external GPU's obsolete.

Does anyone still buy a separate math co-processor or separate CPU cache?
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"


El Quintron
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reply to captokita

said by captokita:

Simplicity. I buy a PS3 game, I KNOW my PS3 is going to play it. I don't have to say "Is my graphics card enough to run this game properly? Do I have enough RAM in my system to make it run properly? That PS3 game IS going to work on my system. From first to last released game for the system, they ALL will work, with no upgrades required. I can't do that with a PC.

Except you can't play PS2 (in most cases), or PS1 games (at all) whereas you can play a ten year old game on your PC as is, or with a bit of tinkering at worst.

Also most PC games have scalability, so even if your old(er) gpu can't play a new game at Maximum settings it can certainly play it at high or medium settings, for example you can still play Borderlands 2 with a GeForce 8500 which isn't a whole lot by today's standards.
--
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kingdome74
Let's Go Orange
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reply to captokita

I certainly have no money to pay for high end system builds but I can play any game that's out without any problems. Granted my system is getting long in the tooth (about 4 years old) but I try to think ahead and build in as much forward upgrading as possible. To me I have three rules for upgrading on a budget:

1. Be patient. Buying the latest and greatest means you generally won't even see it's full usefulness for years down the road and by then it's on Newegg for 20 bucks. I prowl a lot of sites when I get ready to start revamping my system and I do a lot of reading trying to be as educated as possible.

2. Have money in hand. You can't be led by the nose by parts makers trying to convince you that if you buy now you'll save etc etc. Bullshit. Be smart and once you know exactly what you want be ready to strike when you hit that great price delivered.

3. Rotation, rotation, rotation. When I build I know I'll be able to use my mobo/CPU/RAM pretty much for the life of it knowing I'll have to upgrade vid cards a couple of times and maybe a bigger PSU or a hard drive. For instance right now I already have my SATA III drives, RAM, opticals, and PSU already in use. All I need is a vid card, mobo, and CPU and - bam - a "new" rig that, in reality, I've been building over the course of the last couple of year by rotating to next generation before I actually switch completely over to it.

A lot of work I will guarantee and most people don't want to use or have that kind of time. Even when I worked I spent all of my off time reading and pondering the next build. I hate wasting money and I'll be damned if I drop two grand just to say I did.

Of course my wife calls me cheap but it's a title I wear with pride.
--
Who said: "In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities, and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption."


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to bobjohnson

my $300 7950 has display port support, and I'm fairly certain the new 12.11 beta drivers support 120hz. At least some other tech website I visit have lead me to believe so.


pandora
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said by me1212:

my $300 7950 has display port support, and I'm fairly certain the new 12.11 beta drivers support 120hz. At least some other tech website I visit have lead me to believe so.

I look up the specs AMD puts out for Displayport 1.2 and it says to 60 Hz. - »www.amd.com/us/Documents/50279_A···2_WP.pdf Wikipedia only lists FPS at 60 Hz for Displayport »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort .

Higher resolutions and more monitors than HDMI, yes, more than 60 FPS, so far as I can tell, no.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to kingdome74

said by kingdome74:

3. Rotation, rotation, rotation. When I build I know I'll be able to use my mobo/CPU/RAM pretty much for the life of it knowing I'll have to upgrade vid cards a couple of times and maybe a bigger PSU or a hard drive. For instance right now I already have my SATA III drives, RAM, opticals, and PSU already in use. All I need is a vid card, mobo, and CPU and - bam - a "new" rig that, in reality, I've been building over the course of the last couple of year by rotating to next generation before I actually switch completely over to it.

Thats pretty much the only way to do it. After the initial purchase upgrading a desktop usually isn't as big of an all at once expense anymore, because most people(that I know of) buy a new psu/gpu/hdd/ram//cpu+mobo only when they need to not all at once. Sure some may buy more than one thing at the same time or close to the same time(I got a 7950 in nov and a 2TB deskstar last week, but the latter was because I got a microcenter gift card for my birthday), but for the most part its a part here, a competent there. And thats the way I like it.

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to pandora

Well crap, /g/ lied to me, or was just misinformed themselves.


Da Man

join:2008-05-08
Hanover, PA
reply to pandora

Its right in the graph in that PDF.

The purple line is the relevant one. The low HDMI bandwidth seems to a limitation of that particular card. It would be about the same as DL-DVI (8Gbps after overhead).


pandora
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I went and double checked. It appears it's 60Hz per eye, but 120Hz on a 3D Displayport with active 3D glasses that support 120Hz Displayport 3D monitors. From the .pdf -

Stereoscopic 3D
Frame sequential 3D displays are those that display one view at a time (left or right) and require the
use of liquid crystal shutter glasses. According to Stereo 3D experts, at least 60fps (or 60Hz) per eye
is required for these types of displays to have a pleasant 3D experience. This means that the minimum
total refresh rate required is 120Hz. Only DisplayPort 1.2 has enough bandwidth to drive display timings
required for high resolution frame sequential 3D displays, and also remove the need for buffering.

It doesn't seem to claim there is any device that does this, or that any card does it, or that there is a driver for any operating system that can do this. Just that it is possible within the spec. As anything is possible, it's a bit of a stretch to use this as an argument for 120 Hz refresh rates on Displayport devices at this time.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
reply to kvn864

I started below the $50 mark with graphics cards a few years ago, then moved to the $100 mark, and now am up to the $200 mark. My current HD6870 is about as low as I am willing to go now.
--
I voted for Snoopy!


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Thats usually how it goes. Once you get in to it it sucks you in. In a good way.


xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA

By a few years ago I should clearify I am refering to the voodoo 3.
I think PC sales will pick up again. I have a PS3 downstairs but it just has never been as good as the PC. Couple an FX-8350 with the HD6870 and an SSD and the PS3 just can't compete. My little i5 laptop even does better.
As for tablets, well, they always end up in bedrooms by the bed. This is not a PC replacement.
--
I voted for Snoopy!


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Wow, voodoo 3, well it was pretty decent for its time.

I'm 100% certain pc gaming will pick it, valve has steam on linux and since the steam box will use linux thats just gonna be more games for the linux users. Not to mention those will probably all be released on windows.

Like you said the consoles can't compete. and I do not expect the next gen consoles to be able to ether. Not unless they want to charge over $600 this time.


xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
reply to captokita

said by captokita:

Simplicity. I buy a PS3 game, I KNOW my PS3 is going to play it. I don't have to say "Is my graphics card enough to run this game properly? Do I have enough RAM in my system to make it run properly? That PS3 game IS going to work on my system. From first to last released game for the system, they ALL will work, with no upgrades required. I can't do that with a PC.

quote:
That's the single biggest reason why I love gaming on desktops - graphics. Of course custom building and tricking out our PC's has it's own appeal.
I wouldn't say you're wrong for thinking that way, but for people on budgets, keeping up with the latest for desktop gaming, can be pretty costly. Sure, my rig runs the F out of *insert game name* today, but NEXT year, won't get basic framerate out of the NEW "Gotta play it!" game. Maybe a graphics upgrade is enough, but maybe it's a new system.

I love my PS3, it plays Blue Ray, streams movies from my little linux box in the corner, and now offers a number of features like Amazon Prime and Netflix. As for game play, I own maybe 5 or 6 games that I never play on it. The reason for that is:
1. My PC offers and has consistently offered superior graphics.
2. I hate the controller. I can't aim accurately with it. Give me the mouse and keyboard combo.
3. Availability. Bethesda in their infinite wisdom has some deal with Microsoft for 30 day exclusives on all DLC. Other games come out for one or the other. PC offers the best compromise.
4. Longevity. Outside of the lucky few of us who own the original PS3, how many people can go back and play their PS2 or original Xbox games? With Dos Box, VMware, and a few other tools I can go all the way back to Wing Commander 1 and Mr. Larry who wore Leisure Suites.

As for cost, maybe, but then working on PC's isn't just a hobby but a career.

I know a lot of people who keep going on about Desktops going away, but honestly I can't see it. Tablets are great for consuming media. That is all. I can't do my job with one, and I know very few people who could. Microsoft may have something with a surface tablet that plugs in and acts as a desktop, but that is then a PC. Without the kind of screen real estate, graphics, multi-monitior support, and more powerful processors (not to mention memory) offered in a desktop or laptop, it just won't get the job done.
--
I voted for Snoopy!


signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
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NanoParticle
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reply to pandora

Power isn't the only reason to build your own. Sure, IF you have the budget, IF you have the Yen, IF you have the legitimate need, ok, but: Building your own has other reasons than just mo'powa. Those of us who are technically inclined to some extent, or are wanna bees to that extent, are also control freaks to some extent. And we detest the off the shelf, big corporation controlling us and our devices, extent.

I don't want HP, Dell, Sony, or whoever telling me what and how I use my money and time. I've been treated so shabilly by those companies when I made MINOR requests, that, well, err, screw them!!! Example: I'm helping a friend out and we need to order restore disks, so why are we treated like criminals when we simply call up said companies asking to order restore disks for a product WE own??? I've been yelled at by Indian tech support people even while I never raised my OWN voice at them. Common courtesy, these corps don't have it any longer, so no way am I going to buy a factory build.

If I had the real choice to build my own laptop, tablet, and phone, I'd build them too. Not for power, but, erm, for the other power, power to the people!
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Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital.



Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to me1212

said by me1212:

Like you said the consoles can't compete. and I do not expect the next gen consoles to be able to ether. Not unless they want to charge over $600 this time.

Next gen consoles will be comparable or have better graphics/power for probably a month or two until new hardware is released, when at that point, PC's pass them in a cloud of dust like always.

If Sony and Microsoft are going to charge 600 dollars for the new consoles when they release, they'll be fuckin' out of their minds.

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

If MS/Sony don't make a $600 console I don't see how they will be able to make anything that can compete with current pcs. Even for a few months. My 2500k, @ 4.5ghz, and 7950, @1005mhz, will blow away most anything they can put out at an affordable price. Not trying to sound like an elitist just I know the costs of hardware. Its not like they have much to compete with, the wiiu at about the same as the 360 and ps3, MS said they will be focusing more on the kenect gimmicks(even going so far as to ship the 720 with a kenect as the primary controler, so I hear), and sony keeps loosing money on their game systems this gen. Not much to look forward to sadly.



signmeuptoo
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reply to pandora

Console users care about being able to PLAY a game, no matter what the graphics, most console buyers don't comprehend how big a leap desktop graphics trounces consoles. You'd have to point out every difference because they don't get it. Most of them say "why build a 1000 dollar PC when I can buy a console for a third of that that is just as good"... err durr...
--
Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital.



Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

said by signmeuptoo:

Console users care about being able to PLAY a game, no matter what the graphics

Not entirely true, since a huge majority of PS3 and 360 fanboys bag all over Wii about inferior graphics.

Which is ironic, seeing as how they are playing on inferior systems themselves compared to PC, graphics wise.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
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There is a pecking order in the universe that even console gamers recognize.