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Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to bburley

Re: ARGH! Ubnt radios freezing!

Even perfect LOS links do the same thing.
Reducing power fixes it.

Fortunately it doesn't often get that cold here. Maybe once or twice a year.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16

1 edit
reply to voxframe
-30C this morning: Nanobridge frozen

My first one: I have almost all Nano's

why do Nano's stay alive when Nanobridge do not

It was at 23 lowered it to 20

We will see tonight

That means no more Nanobridge for me


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to voxframe
Documenting all of these failure points with respect to temperature is very valuable. Having accurate temps is helpful. These are cheap enough to scatter around as necessary:

»www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-LCD···1a5e46ab

A couple of questions come to mind...

It would be helpful to know if both the radio and the POE PS are in the same temp environment, or if, for example, the PS is located indoors. A little more clarification as to the particulars for the device installation (since each install is unique) would also be helpful.

Another thing is the careful use of terminology, since common words might have a literal meaning with respect to the technical issue we are discussing. For example, folks might say "the radio is frozen". Does that mean "like ice" or that data transmission has ceased?

At any rate, good thread...
--
Nothing makes an American want to do something more than telling them they can't.


thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16
reply to voxframe
temp will be -30 tonight

ps is inside: link had red light on aircontrol: could not reach radio

when on premises: I could reach radio: had to default and reprogram

looks like rf side dies in the cold

tonight will be a good test

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe
Quick and dirty ways to bring back links...

-Lower TX power to 21 or less and it should keep the link stable - ish. (This doesn't always work, but it does help quite a bit if you can catch this before it happens)

If your link is dead, but you are on the LAN side of the radio and can get into the interface...

-Run Airview for a good 10-20 minutes, the wider the sweep, the better it seems. This, I'm assuming, makes the unit work harder and gets the CPU to heat up juuuuust that extra bit to get the link to establish.
-Reboot the radio over and over. Does the same effect as above, but doesn't seem to be as efficient at it, but it will do it.

Once the link IS up, you need to keep it up. Pound the hell out of the link continuously. I actually have a dedicated "Heater" computer set up to just generate loads of traffic on problematic links to keep them rolling. This is a delicate balance, too little and the link drops, too much and the link is saturated and useless.

bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB
reply to John Galt
The PoE on one end of my problem link is indoors. The other end is in a wooden box with a thermostaticaly controlled 100W Light Bulb for heat. Not as good as indoors, but certainly better than outside.

I do not believe that the PoE's were of any influence. I also believe that the ethernet ports do not contribute to the problem, although I can't be at both ends at once.

Rebooting (or changing a setting) will bring the link back, but only for a minute. This method gave me communication long enough to reduce the power level on the remote link. I only did this after experimenting with power levels on the local link to be sure that I wouldn't permanently lose communication.

When I successfully lowered power levels on both sides to 21 dBm, the recovery was almost immediate. No heavy traffic or other warm-up factors were needed.

The Nanobridge M5 is in the front of the dish and completely outside. There are three Rocket M900 AP's on the same tower, but they are mounted inside the bottom of the UBNT sector antennas which are also surrounded by RF Armor shields. The AP's did not suffer from this problem.


clarknova

join:2010-02-23
Grande Prairie, AB
kudos:7
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to voxframe
I have a couple dozen BM5 and a similar number of RM2. Not a single lockup in -43 a couple of winters ago. It hasn't been quite as cold since, and still no temp-attributable problems.

I have only a couple of power supplies in an unheated shelter, but those aren't UBNT branded.
--
db

bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB
I just started wondering about the length of the cable run. The resistance of the cable would decrease as it got colder, but the change is probably not significant.

If the RF Power Amplifier draws more current as it gets colder, it may reduce the voltage at the end of the cable. If this is the reason, then voxframe's 'heater' computer should make it worse instead of better.

At this point I cannot tell if one side of the link is worse than the other. My cable lengths are 75 and 100 feet.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe
The problem we're having is not pulling too much current as to cause the units to be "under powered" (Otherwise they'd simply reboot or jam entirely).

This is (Our ours anyway) is a case of the wireless radio freezing up and being unable to communicate/stabilize/lock/whatever. The actual CPU, LAN side, and the rest of the unit, including the radio controller, all work fine no matter what. It's just the radio itself that craps out in the cold.

Which is also why when we up voltage it makes no difference, or on short runs it makes no difference.

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to voxframe
Our first good cold snap last night. 1-3 degrees F (depends on who you ask).. Wind chill put it at -10-15F. We lost a battery back up for 7 hours last night, so a whole site without power, in the cold. Not a single one of them did not come back on line and work properly.

All short runs of cat5 (under 50'), all with 24V power supplies. Some higher current UBNT, others standard UBNT supplies. Rockets, bridges, and a bullet at that site. Power supplies are in one enclosure, with a RB493. Enclosure is insulated, but vented with louvers on the front (from a removed computer exhaust fan) An old purcell small enclosure. The battery backup was in a separate enclosure. So we have 9 POE's and an RB 493ah in that box.

For whatever it's worth, if anything.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by gunther_01:

Our first good cold snap last night. 1-3 degrees F (depends on who you ask).. Wind chill put it at -10-15F.

We are right now just a few degrees warmer than that at 11AM (4F, -13F wind) and Im sure its right at the wire here for them to start to acting up. I think the only saving grace is the sun is shining on the radios.
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OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

Chessie

join:2011-02-02
united state
reply to voxframe
Are any of you considering changing out the UBNT for other companies backhauls. Up to this point I had resisted using UBNT for anything other than an hotspot at a customers site. I was getting really close to caving in to the low cost backhaul options they offer on some new projects coming up. I am really glad this thread came up because we had -18 last night actual. I hate chasing my tale on equipment issues. This would drive me insane if I had them implemented and had to babysit them to keep them working.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to voxframe
We've had a COLD spell the last few days, today's high is -22 c, lows around -32, w/windchill around -40 to -45!!and things seem to be humming along pretty good.
I'm not putting tons of traffic through either....

thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16
Nano's or Nanobridge: I was wrong the other day: mine(NB)froze up around -25C:

I lowered the power on that unit and although it got colder (tonight -30C, no windchill) it stayed up

Why does lowering the power fix that? I would have thought higher power: more heat?


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
I would guess too much power = heat = melting = water = drips = freezes where not hot enough ????


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by Anav:

I would guess too much power = heat = melting = water = drips = freezes where not hot enough ????

Definitely not that.. Its not a water issue.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB
reply to Anav
With my own personal experience, plus the evidence offered in this thread, I think it narrows down to something in the design in the RF Power Amplifier or perhaps a timing/design problem in a support chip/circuit closely related to the RF Power Amp.

If it was a simple support component, it should have been an easy fix for UBNT, but instead of fixing it, they give the advice to lower the power level setting to 20 dBm. This suggests to me that the solution involves re-design or sourcing a new chip supplier which makes the fix more difficult and therefore far less likely to happen given the small percentage of customers who get cold enough to see the problem.

So far I have found that the magic number is 21 dBm works and 22 dBm does not work. I still need proof that even colder temperatures will require the power level to be lowered more.

I know that this affects the Nanobridge M5, but I can't remember what other models were mentioned that have this problem.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by bburley:

So far I have found that the magic number is 21 dBm works and 22 dBm does not work. I still need proof that even colder temperatures will require the power level to be lowered more.

I know that this affects the Nanobridge M5, but I can't remember what other models were mentioned that have this problem.

We dont wanna talk about it getting any colder than it already freaking is!

I havent seen it on anything but nanobridge M5s either.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB
I went back to the beginning of this thread and found Bullet M5 and Powerbridge M5 mentioned with high latency that matches the symptoms.

The "M5" Series must be the common element.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
Well speak of the devil, -23 in the breeze, just had a NBM5 link go out, this is its first winter, and is the coldest day/night here to date.

I did save it by reducing the power
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe
Well all my links that were wrapped in something insulating are working this morning, the one that wasn't died, but brought it back by dropping to 22 and lowering data rate. (Link doesn't hold at 21). Pounded it all night with traffic and she's still up this morning.

While I'm anything but impressed, I'm glad I've got a handle on it.
-26C here right now. So cold, but not bitchin' cold. Could be worse.

Chele

join:2003-07-23
kudos:1
reply to voxframe
Fortunately, we don't see anything near your ball freezing temps! What, if any, has been UBNT's response to this?

Newbie

join:2011-04-18
From Mr. Hardy:

"Hi guys,
We did get some recent versions back that were reported to have issues, and we tested down to -40C with these specific units. We did find an issue that was fixed with v5.5-b9, but we haven't seen any other problems in our lab temperature wise.

If you are seeing problems, can you please contact me (matt@ubnt.com)? If we can get some of these units back that fail when the temperature drops, we can investigate and see what's going on.

Thanks,
Matt"

So much for their fix :-\

For the record I have 800 devices and havent seen this problem, probably hit -15f the last two nights.... All set to 20db power.

But on the heels of the tough cable fiasco I would not welcome another catastrophe like this........

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to voxframe
While it's not a helpful comment I know... Cheap is as cheap does. I just don't expect these things to work flawlessly in every environment. They just aren't rated for it. Nor can I really expect a $80 device to do it...

With that said if they could offer us robust, fast, low latent, devices for $250-$450 a piece (for back haul use), I'm sold. Maybe the Ti series will fit the bill there, but I haven't used yet, nor did I think it was really ready firmware wise (not sure haven't followed real closely)
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to voxframe
Im in no mood to climb up a tower and get it in -26C weather.

Bad enough I have to climb a tower to replace tough cable because it might just leak water.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16
reply to gunther_01
I'm with you: give us the option of a 80 dollar device or a 200 dollar device with better specs that won't freeze up and is ip68 and I'm sold!

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to Inssomniak
said by Inssomniak:

Bad enough I have to climb a tower to replace tough cable because it might just leak water.

My only suggestion to that problem is put a slice in the cat5 jacket at the bottom of your drip loop, before it fills up with water in to the POE or anything else important.

Works wonders in a jam. Seriously...
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to thewisperer
said by thewisperer:

I'm with you: give us the option of a 80 dollar device or a 200 dollar device with better specs that won't freeze up and is ip68 and I'm sold!

I just want something that works period.. I'm sorry, but when things were slower, like in my B mode days, I could get single digit pings all day long that almost never wavered. Now I deal with all kinds of stupid issues. High pings, drops, strange data rates that don't add up to signal strengths, the list really does go on. I know it's a different RF environment from when we started. I know we are pushing a lot higher speeds and such. But where did the stability go. Because I really feel like it has diminished over the years to be honest..

With every new firmware, and latest, greatest "x", it seems to not really live up to the fluff of where I was 8 years ago with a pretty damned solid network (albeit slower). And that is why I am really looking at different directions for us. I'm just tired of fighting with things.. Sure I have better ROI's using less expensive gear, but in the long run is it really worth it? I don't know at this point to be honest. Or at least, is it a long term solution for us is a better question for ourselves here at my Co.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to gunther_01
said by gunther_01:

said by Inssomniak:

Bad enough I have to climb a tower to replace tough cable because it might just leak water.

My only suggestion to that problem is put a slice in the cat5 jacket at the bottom of your drip loop, before it fills up with water in to the POE or anything else important.

Works wonders in a jam. Seriously...

Oh yea this does work great. It's not into a Poe in this case it's into one of those rack mount 8port mid span injectors I can't remember who makes it.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca