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DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

Re: Upload :: 12 Kbps 2 kB/s

Currently, and note values change, so these were copied/pasted, one at a time.

Tx IF Power: -26.6dBm
Tx RF Power: 30.0dBm

Note - Exede uses a bigger dish

Upload :: 49 Kbps Thu Jan 03 2013 @ 8:46:58 pm
Download :: 10 Mbps Thu Jan 03 2013 @ 8:47:30 pm

Service Tech just looks at SVT screen; you know; good to go.


Spice300
Premium
join:2006-01-10

1 edit

Tx IF Power: -26.6dBm = 2.19 µW
Tx RF Power: 30.0dBm = 1.00 W
gain = 457,000

Upload :: 49 Kbps Thu Jan 03 2013 @ 8:46:58 pm
Download :: 10 Mbps Thu Jan 03 2013 @ 8:47:30 pm

Your download speed is good, your upload speed sucks, your gain is a little low, your Tx IF power seems within range and your Tx RF power is lower than normal.

Does anyone know the range for Tx IF power for Exede modems? For Wildblue modems the range is -18 dBm to -30 dBm (1.00 µW to 15.8 µW).

Maybe you have a very clear sky with little water vapor, but there is a chance the transmitter in your TRIA is dying.

Because the Network Management Policy would slow your download speed too, it is not the explanation.
--
Wildblue Value Pack, beam 31, Riverside gateway


DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28

said by Spice300:

Maybe you have a very clear sky with little water vapor

-7°C (20°F) Humidity89% Visibility10.00 mi

Did ViaSat/WildBlue recently increase the speeds on WildBlue Plans?

Yes, effective November 19, 2012, our legacy WildBlue plans’ speeds were increased by more than double their original speeds. No other changes were made to plans at this time.
Exede's Beam 62 (eastern Washington) and Beam 163 (mine) are both closed for new customers. Beam 62 users experience more painfully wait/wait/wait loading, stall outs.

Web pages with lots of graphical elements do not allways load these elements, even here at BBR; if you know they are missing, you have to reload the page; that video site URL, for instance, when I loaded it tonight omitted the "center" section, and took over 20 seconds to load.

Exede's network engineers need to be moved to eastern Oregon and to say York, Ne. They need to experience the dynamic effects of SB2 modem shooting craps under low uplink speeds.

All they have to do is setup committed information rate (CIR) to around 23 Kbps on their Exede 12 system to get a byte on reality.

They need to experience the "joys" of watching in lower left hand corner of their web browser each element being loaded...see picture.

Spice300
Premium
join:2006-01-10

Yes, when either the upload or download speed is below about 40 kb/s, one gets partial page loads and timeouts. This was happening to me during busy times between November 2009 and Spring 2012 (insufficient servers in the gateway and the Network Management Policy). In your case something else is wrong because your download speed is good. It may very well be related to increasing speeds for legacy Wildblue users. It is possible your gateway is instructing your modem to transmit at low power because the gateway is having problems with higher upload (from the customer's perspective) bit rates.
--
Wildblue Value Pack, beam 31, Riverside gateway


DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

said by Spice300:

TRIA is dying.

ping -l 1472 -f google.com

Pinging google.com [74.125.224.229] with 1472 bytes of data:
Reply from 74.125.224.229: bytes=1472 time=770ms TTL=54
Reply from 74.125.224.229: bytes=1472 time=734ms TTL=54
Reply from 74.125.224.229: bytes=1472 time=751ms TTL=54
Reply from 74.125.224.229: bytes=1472 time=762ms TTL=54

Ping statistics for 74.125.224.229:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 734ms, Maximum = 770ms, Average = 754ms

Spice300
Premium
join:2006-01-10

There is no requirement that a TRIA must die by creating packet loss. Packet loss is one clue.

I suggest you monitor your Tx IF power and Tx RF power for more anomalies like transmitting at .263 W. Was that caused by the gateway instructing your modem to output 575 nW (Tx IF power) or your gain dropping low?
--
Wildblue Value Pack, beam 31, Riverside gateway


DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

said by Spice300:

download speed is good.

Receive is excellent/good....

Rx SNR: 11.2 dB
Rx Power: -33.4 dBm
24 hours: Loss of Sync Count 3

To keep on sending the bytes to user, a packet or two would be uplinked at some time interval.

possible your gateway is instructing your modem to transmit at low power...

Adaptive Coding/Modulation - Each SB2 modem can change which format is being used. Lower bit rate coding/modulation does not require as much Tx power. When rain happens in your area, each SB2 modem will "change gears" and use a lower bit rate coding/modulation.

RETURN CHANNEL
8PSK Rate 7/12, 2/3, 3/4
QPSK Rate 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4
BPSK Rate 1/2

On Exede 5 beams, using a higher bit rate than what legacy users have is not needed. But, in time, there may be commercial 1.2m antennas, and they could use higher bit rates. Each user is given a slice of time, so if you are using a higher bit rate coding format, you can uplink more bits per unit of time.

DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28

1 edit
reply to Spice300

said by Spice300:

caused by the gateway instructing your modem to output

All users on a beam must have about same power level at satellite; gateway will turn down/up each individual's Tx output power.

Those in the center, less power is needed.

In early days of Wildblue, there were whole beam resets, and that beam would be down, until it reset itself. This was due to users in center of beam who had short cable runs. Since then, they widen legacy modems to have wider parameters for controlling TRIA power output.

They called it something like SMTS resets...long ago, but I think that was what they called it.

»Re: Minimum cable length

Spice300
Premium
join:2006-01-10
reply to DrStrangLov

Yes, with other factors held constant, a higher power for the carrier wave means a faster bit rate and a lower power, means a slower bit rate. I am trying to determine whether the gateway is instructing your modem to transmit at a low power and bit rate or your TRIA is malfunctioning.

Think about it. If the gateway tells your modem to transmit 15 µW, your gain drops to 10,000 and your TRIA transmits 150 mW, then your TRIA is a screwy little rabbit.
--
Wildblue Value Pack, beam 31, Riverside gateway


DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28

said by Spice300:

Think about it....your TRIA is a screwy little rabbit.

If so, then until that "rabbit" drops dead, they ain't going to fix it; after all, if it ain't "broke," don't fix it.

But, I really doubt service techs can see actual modulation/coding.

Remember, Exede announced raised legacy speeds by November 19, 2012, and I got serious on reporting this problem on November 24, 2012, some five days later.

As I stated then, "It seems, for some time, upload on this Exede 5 beam has got an issue, and getting worse."
»WB-1: 163 Riverside-Phoenix Network

DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

said by Spice300:

gateway is instructing your modem to transmit at low power because

Considering it takes some 20 minutes or so for my SB2 to "connect" after a power cycle, and assuming, as joebob42 suggested, that apparently SMTS determines an user's coding/modulation used for their SB2's uplink, then when an user's connect time takes longer on a clear day, it may be that user's SB2 unit is pre-programmed to use highest bit rate first, and then it works itself downward in coding/modulation formats until SMTS takes control of it.

If true, I'm wondering how service techs or even NRTC can evaluate which coding/modulation format is being used for coming to a judgment that a TRIA is defective. For instance, NRTC claimed in May of 2012:

...NRTC members have returned only 82 SB2 units after 90 days into shipping and so far 20 of those have been found to have problems.

Did they contact ViaSat to see SMTS data, if available, or did they just install these TRIAs for testing, and said, "see these 62 TRIAs are fit for duty?"

If these "good" 62 TRIAs were using a lower bit rate, then they were defective, and NRTC screwed the pooch. And of course, consumers who received these defective TRIAs experienced slower uplink speeds, page waits, and stall-outs.

If all true above, then SB2's diagnostics ought to show coding/modulation info, and service techs need to be educated on this topic.


wm4bama

join:2012-05-10
Goodwater, AL

Earlier in this thread you reported:

"...NRTC members have returned only 82 SB2 units after 90 days into shipping and so far 20 of those have been found to have problems."

and now you're talking about the other "62 Tria's"..

Have you confused SB2 modems that were bad with Tria's?
--
Exede12, ViaSat-1, beam 342, Albuquerque Gateway, Denver AcceleNet servers


DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28

said by wm4bama:

Have you confused SB2 modems that were bad with Tria's?

Good point....here's the terms they used in that article:

SurfBeam 2 (SB 2) equipment

SB 2 units

Keep in mind the author's abstraction level might suggest a clueless management person. Apparently, members of NRTC send equipment back to them, and its rather doubtful a single TRIA has not failed, statistically speaking.

In any event, my point is still valid if those conditions exist. If service tech is clueless about which coding/modulation is being used, and if TRIA can still operate at lower output power, then how can a service tech assess the situation?

Question remains...is my TRIA shooting craps, or has Exede reduced my uplink speed to a crawl during primetime.

Spice's argument vs increases in legacy speeds.

Spice300
Premium
join:2006-01-10
reply to DrStrangLov

said by DrStrangLov:

Considering it takes some 20 minutes or so for my SB2 to "connect" after a power cycle....

Over the last 7 years my WB modem has taken between 1 minute and more than an hour to connect after power on. There has never been a correlation between the time to connect and the speeds once connected. You argued somewhere else that the encoding and bit rate are adaptive without power cycling the modem to compensate for varying weather. It is either fixed during registration or adaptive. It can not be both.
--
Wildblue Value Pack, beam 31, Riverside gateway

DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28

said by Spice300:

my WB modem has taken between 1 minute and more than an hour to connect after power on.

SB2 may or may not function as WB-modem, when Gateway equipment is responsive (on-line; ready to serve you ). I recall SB2 use to connect fairly quickly, in early times.

quote:
encoding and bit rate are adaptive without power cycling the modem to compensate for varying weather.
A given - When SB2 is powered up, it must "listen" for its turn to transmit to SMTS "I'm here." SB2 will not transmit until it locks upon satellite signal. Consequently, there is a built in program which initiates incremental power/coding-modulation; hence, SB2 is seaching for correct transmit format to engage SMTS unit.

Via WB legacy installer manual (in which installer had to input a value) - "The maximum offset frequency in Hz, from nominal frequency, that the SM will use in its search for upstream lock.

Wildblue Legacy - I don't know if "headquarters" changed coding/modulation or not. I'd have to search literature, but in back of my mind, I seem to recall headquarters changed it...could be wrong here.

Via SB2 brochure - RETURN CHANNEL "Automatic power control and rate adaptation"

From a previous discussion - "The system has adaptive coding and modulation so the link rate will be adjusted as needed..."

DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to wm4bama

said by wm4bama:

Have you confused SB2 modems that were bad with Tria's?

I forgot to mention the "...infamous loose screw on the tria? If it is loose, it can allow moisture inside and that could certainly cause problems." 2006-01-04

To my recollections, these TRIAs were replaced in the truck load volumes, including mine, and they also had a few power-brick replacements, not mine, but I don't recall an issue with MODEMS.

Hence, I suspect the author of that news article was talking abstractly, cause TRIA replacement was the biggest issue (aka headache) back then.

Thus SB1 modem replacements has no relationship to reality back then, so I must conclude this author was expressing an abstract idea since it was TRIAs that were failing, not modems then. Using abstraction is not uncommon among management folks. Plain folks speak with concrete terms...TRIAs.

Spice300
Premium
join:2006-01-10
reply to DrStrangLov

Okay, SB2 uses an adaptive bit rate controlled by the gateway. If your equipment is working properly, then the gateway is instructing your SB2 modem to upload slowly because something is broken at the gateway.

Yes, my SB1 modem used to connect faster than Windows XP booted from power on. It seldom connects that fast anymore.
--
Wildblue Value Pack, beam 31, Riverside gateway


DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

said by Spice300:

bit rate are adaptive without power cycling the modem

Adaptive coding and modulation (ACM) was was still in research stages around 2003.

Abstract
The exploitation of adaptive coding and modulation (ACM) techniques for the forward link (satellite-to-user) of broadband communication satellites operating at Ka-band and above has been shown to theoretically provide large system capacity gains.
An over view can be found here: September 2010

Adaptive coding and modulation can be done now on a per user basis on return link to satellite and on forward link to each user.

Wilblue legacy was designed back in early 2000 time-frame; here are the specs:

Adaptive Coding and Modulation (ACM)...forward link

• Rate-adaptable return link

But, I think all users' uplink for a single beam were all the same rate, until they changed it. In other words, the forward link to users could be adjusted individually, but the return linked was fixed for all users until they change it. So, if the rain didn't blast enough users, it was "lights out" for you.

DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

said by Spice300:

SB2 uses an adaptive bit rate controlled by the gateway.

Time slots -Each user is allocated their "share" of time to uplink. As the number of active users decrease, this time slot can widen. Those user modems that are "asleep," will be polled less frequently; Wildblue Legacy modems operate this way I believe. Hence, as the time interval lengthens for active users, these users experience higher upload speeds, and generally higher download speeds.

Coding/Modulation - 8PSK 7/12 can deliver more bits per second than BPSK Rate 1/2.

8PSK and QPSK Modulation - With the addition of 8PSK modulation the DVB-S2 standard increases the bits per hz over satellite by up to 50%.

DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

said by Spice300:

TRIA must die

Internet Experience Summary - With slow uplinks (23-30 Kbps), one can surf and watch Youtube video, but your computer's programs must be locked-down so they don't look for updates, or start downloading updates. If other internet activities are happening, your internet experience will come to a crawl or stop, and SB2's center two modem lights will pulse extremely fast. Once this happens, you might as well take a break.

TRIA Assessment - If TRIA is failing there is no means available for a service tech to look at his screen and see this issue. This assessment is based upon tech referring this computer geek to a CSR....in other words, its a "customer or network issue," so he passed the buck to a CSR; not my problem.

Wildblue Legacy Speed Increase - If all users on this beam, WB-1: 113/163, were experiencing this low of speeds on a beam that was never fully loaded, their phone lines would have been ringing/ringing; my local coop representative indicated no issue she was aware of. I know of one user on WB-1: 113, but I have not talked to him yet; but in previous talks, everything was wonderful on WB-1:113, but he is just a plain user, no computer skills, so to speak.

TRIA's Tx RF Power - When service tech installed SB2 equipment, I took a snapshot of Tx RF Power, which was running at 34.4 dBm. So, after some nine months of hammering away at around full power output, there is the possibility TRIA's electronics have degraded. Since monitoring it recently, it has not exceeded 33.0dBm.

Conclusion - Unless service techs have access to SMTS data, if this exists for them, then a good faith assessment is not possible. If all they see is ViaSat's diagnostic info, which I can see, then they are clueless. This assessment assumes a TRIA has stepped down to a lower power output mode, and they can see the changes in different coding/modulation format being used. Further, I have no idea how long ViaSat's warranty is on these TRIAs, but what has been common in many businesses, they won't fix it until its broke.

Currently around 9 PM Sunday:

Upload :: 54 Kbps
Download :: 2.5 Mbps

60 Kbps uplink is barely enough for one user, but Exede-5 birds do not have same uplink capacity as Exede-12 bird does.

Solution - Since customer can not see coding/modulation data, and if this is the case (defective TRIA), since service tech is clueless also (if this is the case), then only by contacting ViaSat directly could this matter be resolved, if SMTS data exists. Or, wait until that screwy little rabbit dies.


BasilAR
WildBlue

join:2006-07-20
Parks, AR

said by DrStrangLov:

Or, wait until that screwy little rabbit dies.

Or . . . you cat put it out of its misery.
--
WildBlue - Beam 35 - value

Spice300
Premium
join:2006-01-10
reply to DrStrangLov

said by DrStrangLov:

Conclusion - Unless service techs have access to SMTS data, if this exists for them, then a good faith assessment is not possible. If all they see is ViaSat's diagnostic info, which I can see, then they are clueless. This assessment assumes a TRIA has stepped down to a lower power output mode, and they can see the changes in different coding/modulation format being used. Further, I have no idea how long ViaSat's warranty is on these TRIAs, but what has been common in many businesses, they won't fix it until its broke.

In other words, Exede's attitude is the same as Wildblue's attitude: because we see nothing wrong, we will not fix your slow speeds. Speed is not guaranteed. Broadband is not guaranteed. Functional Internet is not guaranteed. Deductions from your credit card are guaranteed. Screwy little rabbits only exist in cartoons.
Expand your moderator at work

DrStrangLov

join:2012-03-28
reply to Spice300

Re: Upload :: 12 Kbps 2 kB/s

said by Spice300:

...because we see nothing wrong, we will not fix your slow speeds.

So, I contacted via email one of those Customer Care folks (aka CSRs; Company Script Readers) with this request:
quote:
Subject: SMTS data on TRIA's coding/modulation
.
WB-1: 163 Exede 5
.
IP Address 10.xxxxx
MAC Address 00xxxx
Serial Number 2xxxxxx
.
Could someone evaluate if TRIA's output is running in a degraded mode? Rx SNR is good at around 11dB.
.

And the response was:

quote:
We would be happy to assist you.....As you can imagine this is difficult to address through E-mail or chat, and is best done and needs to be done over the phone with our tech team.....

Did the CSR really say that? What's so "difficult" about that request? Has CSR even heard of the word "SMTS?"

Call tech team? Like how many times in past eight months did someone ask this question?